NYU vs. Columbia: Class of 2013 Forum

[radgrad]

3) Columbia has a bunch of faculty who focus on the stuff I'm interested in. NYU does too, but in a more decentralized, general way. This is the biggest plus, and is probably 80% of the reason I'm considering Columbia at all.

What stuff are you interested in? I am pondering the choice of Berkeley versus Columbia, and I'm trying to get a better sense of what Columbia is strong in.

Not Strong:
-Civil rights/impact litigation
-Gender/sexuality

Curious: what's your logic here? I've heard a lot about this: http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... rsexuality

which seems to suggest they, at least, have a fairly strong focus on this stuff.

[Renzo]

3) Columbia has a bunch of faculty who focus on the stuff I'm interested in. NYU does too, but in a more decentralized, general way. This is the biggest plus, and is probably 80% of the reason I'm considering Columbia at all.

What stuff are you interested in? I am pondering the choice of Berkeley versus Columbia, and I'm trying to get a better sense of what Columbia is strong in.

This is just my opinion, and I'm sure people will disagree with me, but:

Strong:
-Contracts/securities/transactional (extremely strong - probably the best in the country)
-Corporate governance
-Tax
-International law that is not comparative legal studies
-IP (Berkeley and Stanford are probably stronger in this regard, but Columbia has pretty legit faculty)
-Climate change (but not the rest of environmental)
-Admin law

Neutral:
-Criminal
-Law and econ
-National security/foreign policy
-Election law/legislation

Not Strong:
-Civil rights/impact litigation
-Environmental besides Climate Change
-Constitutional
-Gender/sexuality
-Comparative legal studies

Keep in mind, "strong," "neutral" and "not strong" are relative to other top schools - I'm essentially comparing it to the rest of the T6. Even in some of the "not strong" fields there are very prominent/interesting professors.

I was at a non-school related cocktail event and talked to a recent CLS-to-NYU defector Prof. He said that CLS was "lying" if they said that there was anyone left there who knew anything about International law, that they had all left for other schools.

I couldn't care less about the field, so I don't really have a dog in that fight, just passing along info.

[Renzo]

1) brand whoring. i went to a fancy-sounding undergrad, and it has actually been super helpful since graduation. The top schools really care about their reputation, and they put the time/$$ into maintaining it. Networking events, helping alums find jobs, etc. Not that NYU Law doesn't, but NYU-proper probably doesn't care about image as much as Columbia-proper.

2) NYU encourages a lot of people to go into public interest. Great. I don't care. I mean, I think it's an admirable thing, but I'm already going into law school with a public interest focus, and I don't think it helps me if a bunch of my classmates want to do the same thing as me. A bit selfish, but there you are. I kind of like the idea of being a striped fish in a polka dot pond... (yeah, i feel like i'm mixing analogies here).

3) Columbia has a bunch of faculty who focus on the stuff I'm interested in. NYU does too, but in a more decentralized, general way. This is the biggest plus, and is probably 80% of the reason I'm considering Columbia at all.

As an NYUer, I think that 1 and 3 are very good reasons to care about CLS, and 2 is true, but is more of a lack of a reason to pick NYU than an actual reason to pick either (don't forget that about 80% on NYUers are going in to private practice, despite all the PI pressure).
I would mount one small defense of NYU on count one. NYU undergrad is TTT, and everyone knows it. Strangers on the street know Columbia, and the prestige factor is real. BUT: NYU knows that Stearn and the Law School are the only things about the school that aren't an artsy joke, and they throw resources at both schools in acknowledgement of this. It won't change the name-recognition, but they do try and compensate by heaping extra help/resources on those schools.

[imchuckbass58]

Not Strong:
-Civil rights/impact litigation
-Gender/sexuality

Curious: what's your logic here? I've heard a lot about this: http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... rsexuality

which seems to suggest they, at least, have a fairly strong focus on this stuff.

So, I could be totally wrong, I'm a 1L, and admittedly don't know much about gender/sexuality law.

I think it depends on your conception of "strength." I know the center and they actually are very active in putting on a lot of events. So in that sense I guess you're right that it probably would be a good place.

I was basing my categorizations off my impressions of the prominence of the faculty in their field (which I'll be the first to admit is very limited). As far as I know the big people in gender/sexuality law are William Eskridge at YLS and Deborah Rhode at SLS. From what I've heard Katherine Franke and Suzanne Goldberg (the CLS professors focused on gender/sexuality) are great teachers and doing interesting research, but might not be the most prolific/established.

Again, I could be wrong.

[scribelaw]

1) brand whoring. i went to a fancy-sounding undergrad, and it has actually been super helpful since graduation. The top schools really care about their reputation, and they put the time/$$ into maintaining it. Networking events, helping alums find jobs, etc. Not that NYU Law doesn't, but NYU-proper probably doesn't care about image as much as Columbia-proper.

2) NYU encourages a lot of people to go into public interest. Great. I don't care. I mean, I think it's an admirable thing, but I'm already going into law school with a public interest focus, and I don't think it helps me if a bunch of my classmates want to do the same thing as me. A bit selfish, but there you are. I kind of like the idea of being a striped fish in a polka dot pond... (yeah, i feel like i'm mixing analogies here).

3) Columbia has a bunch of faculty who focus on the stuff I'm interested in. NYU does too, but in a more decentralized, general way. This is the biggest plus, and is probably 80% of the reason I'm considering Columbia at all.

As an NYUer, I think that 1 and 3 are very good reasons to care about CLS, and 2 is true, but is more of a lack of a reason to pick NYU than an actual reason to pick either (don't forget that about 80% on NYUers are going in to private practice, despite all the PI pressure).
I would mount one small defense of NYU on count one. NYU undergrad is TTT, and everyone knows it. Strangers on the street know Columbia, and the prestige factor is real. BUT: NYU knows that Stearn and the Law School are the only things about the school that aren't an artsy joke, and they throw resources at both schools in acknowledgement of this. It won't change the name-recognition, but they do try and compensate by heaping extra help/resources on those schools.

This seems like a really harsh assessment of NYU's undergrad. While obviously not on a par with Columbia, I'd always thought NYU was a really good UG. No?

[badfish]

1) brand whoring. i went to a fancy-sounding undergrad, and it has actually been super helpful since graduation. The top schools really care about their reputation, and they put the time/$$ into maintaining it. Networking events, helping alums find jobs, etc. Not that NYU Law doesn't, but NYU-proper probably doesn't care about image as much as Columbia-proper.

2) NYU encourages a lot of people to go into public interest. Great. I don't care. I mean, I think it's an admirable thing, but I'm already going into law school with a public interest focus, and I don't think it helps me if a bunch of my classmates want to do the same thing as me. A bit selfish, but there you are. I kind of like the idea of being a striped fish in a polka dot pond... (yeah, i feel like i'm mixing analogies here).

3) Columbia has a bunch of faculty who focus on the stuff I'm interested in. NYU does too, but in a more decentralized, general way. This is the biggest plus, and is probably 80% of the reason I'm considering Columbia at all.

As an NYUer, I think that 1 and 3 are very good reasons to care about CLS, and 2 is true, but is more of a lack of a reason to pick NYU than an actual reason to pick either (don't forget that about 80% on NYUers are going in to private practice, despite all the PI pressure).
I would mount one small defense of NYU on count one. NYU undergrad is TTT, and everyone knows it. Strangers on the street know Columbia, and the prestige factor is real. BUT: NYU knows that Stearn and the Law School are the only things about the school that aren't an artsy joke, and they throw resources at both schools in acknowledgement of this. It won't change the name-recognition, but they do try and compensate by heaping extra help/resources on those schools.

This seems like a really harsh assessment of NYU's undergrad. While obviously not on a par with Columbia, I'd always thought NYU was a really good UG. No?

There's a strange perception (on the east coast) that NYU's UG is prestigious. I've never quite understood it. No, the undergrad is not TTT, but it is also not elite by any means.

[ravens20]

This seems like a really harsh assessment of NYU's undergrad. While obviously not on a par with Columbia, I'd always thought NYU was a really good UG. No?

It is the number 32 ranked undergrad school according to US News, and has elite programs in several categories (Business, Film, Mathematics, Philosophy, Education, Economics, etc), which somehow makes it TTT on this forum. This is ahead of very respectable schools like Lehigh, William and Mary, and Boston College and right behind other schools like UVA/UCLA (24), UMichigan (27), and UNC (28). But that is TLS for you.

[scribelaw]

This seems like a really harsh assessment of NYU's undergrad. While obviously not on a par with Columbia, I'd always thought NYU was a really good UG. No?

It is the number 32 ranked undergrad school according to US News, and has elite programs in several categories (Business, Film, Mathematics, Philosophy, Education, Economics, etc), which somehow makes it TTT on this forum. This is ahead of very respectable schools like Lehigh, William and Mary, and Boston College and right behind other schools like UVA/UCLA (24), UMichigan (27), and UNC (28). But that is TLS for you.

LOL. This is what I thought. Thanks.

[ravens20]

There's a strange perception (on the east coast) that NYU's UG is prestigious. I've never quite understood it. No, the undergrad is not TTT, but it is also not elite by any means.

I don't know anybody on the east coast that thinks NYU undergrad is elite in the same way that say Harvard, Columbia, or Cornell are considered elite. But a lot of people think of it as being on that next tier of very good schools, which seems to be a fair assessment. At least that is my experience as someone who lived in both the Northeast and the Southeastern part of the country.

[badfish]

There's a strange perception (on the east coast) that NYU's UG is prestigious. I've never quite understood it. No, the undergrad is not TTT, but it is also not elite by any means.

I don't know anybody on the east coast that thinks NYU undergrad is elite in the same way that say Harvard, Columbia, or Cornell are considered elite. But a lot of people think of it as being on that next tier of very good schools, which seems to be a fair assessment. At least that is my experience as someone who lived in both the Northeast and the Southeastern part of the country.

prestigious ≠ elite

but i get what you're saying.

i suppose that's my bad, i sort of conflated the terms near the end there.

[Veyron]

I went to a prestigious undergrad and am at least somewhat used to lay-people back in my home state giving me props when I told them where I went to school.

I tell people I got into NYU Law and they give me vacant stares like, WTF would you go out of state to law school THERE, if you want to practice here!?*& Is prestigious college guy taking a step down in the world? These people either did not finish college or went to a true TTT one. Of course, I know several lawyers in town and needless to say, the reaction I get from them is very different.

FWIW --> I have family in NYC in no way related to the legal profession and they all know that NYU Law is legit.

[dutchstriker]

NYU has one of the best philosophy departments. I think it is actually number one in the philosophy gourmet, or whatever. So my philosophy nerd friends think I'm a baller.

[Renzo]

I went to a prestigious undergrad and am at least somewhat used to lay-people back in my home state giving me props when I told them where I went to school.

I tell people I got into NYU Law and they give me vacant stares like, WTF would you go out of state to law school THERE, if you want to practice here!?*& Is prestigious college guy taking a step down in the world? These people either did not finish college or went to a true TTT one. Of course, I know several lawyers in town and needless to say, the reaction I get from them is very different.

FWIW --> I have family in NYC in no way related to the legal profession and they all know that NYU Law is legit.

This is a good summary. NYU undergrad isn't as bad as I made it sound, I just hold a grudge against undergrads for inflicting their smug awfulness on me.

[starrydreamz3]

It is the number 32 ranked undergrad school according to US News, and has elite programs in several categories (Business, Film, Mathematics, Philosophy, Education, Economics, etc), which somehow makes it TTT on this forum. This is ahead of very respectable schools like Lehigh, William and Mary, and Boston College and right behind other schools like UVA/UCLA (24), UMichigan (27), and UNC (28). But that is TLS for you.

When I chose Lehigh over NYU for undergrad it was ranked ahead of it. The next year, they changed places. Goddamn you US News you ruined my chance at T6 forever!

Actually Lehigh just pwns all other schools, hence why I chose it.

[badfish]

It is the number 32 ranked undergrad school according to US News, and has elite programs in several categories (Business, Film, Mathematics, Philosophy, Education, Economics, etc), which somehow makes it TTT on this forum. This is ahead of very respectable schools like Lehigh, William and Mary, and Boston College and right behind other schools like UVA/UCLA (24), UMichigan (27), and UNC (28). But that is TLS for you.

When I chose Lehigh over NYU for undergrad it was ranked ahead of it. The next year, they changed places. Goddamn you US News you ruined my chance at T6 forever!

Actually Lehigh just pwns all other schools, hence why I chose it.

Think of it this way, you probably aren't as ironic as you could have been but you probably did way less coke.

All in all, you made a good choice.

[scribelaw]

I went to a prestigious undergrad and am at least somewhat used to lay-people back in my home state giving me props when I told them where I went to school.

I tell people I got into NYU Law and they give me vacant stares like, WTF would you go out of state to law school THERE, if you want to practice here!?*& Is prestigious college guy taking a step down in the world? These people either did not finish college or went to a true TTT one. Of course, I know several lawyers in town and needless to say, the reaction I get from them is very different.

FWIW --> I have family in NYC in no way related to the legal profession and they all know that NYU Law is legit.

This is a good summary. NYU undergrad isn't as bad as I made it sound, I just hold a grudge against undergrads for inflicting their smug awfulness on me.

As far as having to deal with/be around the undergrads, Columbia > NYU?

[badfish]

I went to a prestigious undergrad and am at least somewhat used to lay-people back in my home state giving me props when I told them where I went to school.

I tell people I got into NYU Law and they give me vacant stares like, WTF would you go out of state to law school THERE, if you want to practice here!?*& Is prestigious college guy taking a step down in the world? These people either did not finish college or went to a true TTT one. Of course, I know several lawyers in town and needless to say, the reaction I get from them is very different.

FWIW --> I have family in NYC in no way related to the legal profession and they all know that NYU Law is legit.

This is a good summary. NYU undergrad isn't as bad as I made it sound, I just hold a grudge against undergrads for inflicting their smug awfulness on me.

As far as having to deal with/be around the undergrads, Columbia > NYU?

smug and entitled v smug and entitled?

less hipsters @ columbia tips this in CLS' favor

[Renzo]

I went to a prestigious undergrad and am at least somewhat used to lay-people back in my home state giving me props when I told them where I went to school.

I tell people I got into NYU Law and they give me vacant stares like, WTF would you go out of state to law school THERE, if you want to practice here!?*& Is prestigious college guy taking a step down in the world? These people either did not finish college or went to a true TTT one. Of course, I know several lawyers in town and needless to say, the reaction I get from them is very different.

FWIW --> I have family in NYC in no way related to the legal profession and they all know that NYU Law is legit.

This is a good summary. NYU undergrad isn't as bad as I made it sound, I just hold a grudge against undergrads for inflicting their smug awfulness on me.

As far as having to deal with/be around the undergrads, Columbia > NYU?

smug and entitled v smug and entitled?

less hipsters @ columbia tips this in CLS' favor

Yeah, but the lack of a proper NYU campus might tilt it back to even.

[radgrad]

okay, this hipster thing is a little silly. It's new york city. there are hipsters everywhere, but there are models, drug dealers, religious nuts, soccer moms... and everything else you can think of. you're going to see a thousand people in a day, and your eyes are going to glaze over every one except your classmates, teachers, that one cute kid in the bar, and the guy who sells you coffee. so most of the people around you could be hipsters... so? i feel like they could be clowns and it wouldn't change your life.

ugh, getting distracted. wanted to say that chuckbass has a good point about "prestigious programs" vs. programs that'll really prep you and/or position you well for jobs. maybe the same thing? maybe not?

also, does anyone know of a resource that ranks or lists which law schools are the best in certain areas? like best intnat'l law, best tax law, etc

[Renzo]

okay, this hipster thing is a little silly. It's new york city. there are hipsters everywhere, but there are models, drug dealers, religious nuts, soccer moms... and everything else you can think of. you're going to see a thousand people in a day, and your eyes are going to glaze over every one except your classmates, teachers, that one cute kid in the bar, and the guy who sells you coffee. so most of the people around you could be hipsters... so? i feel like they could be clowns and it wouldn't change your life.

ugh, getting distracted. wanted to say that chuckbass has a good point about "prestigious programs" vs. programs that'll really prep you and/or position you well for jobs. maybe the same thing? maybe not?

also, does anyone know of a resource that ranks or lists which law schools are the best in certain areas? like best intnat'l law, best tax law, etc

There are such lists, but they are all BS. (The tax list is easy, though: NYU>G'town>Florida.)

[Veyron]

also, does anyone know of a resource that ranks or lists which law schools are the best in certain areas? like best intnat'l law, best tax law, etc

U.S. News.

[badfish]

NYU was actually in a really large number of top 10 lists for specialized programs...

not that these lists mean anything.

[Series70]

I can't see how interacting with undergrads should make much of a difference. At Columbia, the law school is across the street from the main campus, and undergrads aren't allowed into the law library. At NYU, I guess you'd see them on the street or hanging out in Washington Square Park, across from the law school?

Overall, I've had a very positive experience dealing with Columbia undergrads (although the students are much better dressers at NYU).

For the record, NYU also has a really strong French Department, on par with Columbia's.

[Legalite]

...

[thickfreakness]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.