Top Law Schools

I am a long time reader who had benefitted greatly from the information on this site, and need some advice on my current situation.

I have been accepted to a few schools, but am leaning towards Notre Dame and Cornell. I have no preference between working in Chicago or New York, and am looking to work as hard as I can to put myself in a position to earn the best job I can possibly receive.

My whole life I have dreamed of attending Notre Dame, and never thought I would be in a position to do so. However, I also understand that the legal field is extremely competitive and rankings matter greatly. Cornell is the higher ranked school and would put me in a better position post graduation, but also costs significantly more.

Right now, it would cost me roughly $60,000 in tuition for my three years at Notre Dame and $150,000 for my three years at Cornell. I consider the COL equal in South Bend and Ithaca so I am not factoring those costs.

Given this information, what advice would you offer on this particular situation?

Hmm. Looks like a pick'em to me. Interesting choice!

I would sell my soul (if it existed) to go to Cornell, so I recommend Cornell. On the other hand, I could go the self-interested route and say "Take the cash! Especially ITE" and open up another spot for my app .

kwhitegocubs wrote:I would sell my soul (if it existed) to go to Cornell, so I recommend Cornell. On the other hand, I could go the self-interested route and say "Take the cash! Especially ITE" and open up another spot for my app .

Thanks for your input, and best of luck. What draws you to Cornell so much, if you don't mind me asking?

Are there GPA requirements for the Notre Dame scholarship?

With that much money, I'd probably go to ND. But, I suppose it's a personal choice too. Pick wherever makes you happy

Wow, interesting dilemma, but I think you need to give us a one more piece of information. Are you trying to go biglaw? What type of career do you want?

galahad85 wrote:Are there GPA requirements for the Notre Dame scholarship?

The Notre Dame scholarship only requires remaining in "good academic standing."

nycparalegal wrote:Wow, interesting dilemma, but I think you need to give us a one more piece of information. Are you trying to go biglaw? What type of career do you want?

I would like to work a bit in big law in either Chicago or New York. My career goal is to be the best lawyer I can and to provide the best life for my family possible. Big law would be a great place to start at, but it is not the end game for me.

As I see it...

Indebtedness: Notre Dame Wins
Prestige/Ego: Cornell Wins
Biglaw: Cornell Wins
Portability: Draw

Try negotiating for money from Cornell. Also look for 3rd party scholarships. If big law is your be-all end-all, then you may regret passing up Cornell. If you're not completely set on big law, then I think Notre Dame might be the sounder choice.

Take your time and envision each path long-term to determine what would make you happy.

Definitely wait until Cornell starts passing out money. I am in a similar boat with Iowa (Full ride / top third rank requirement) vs Cornell right now. But I am making no decisions until I get an award letter from Cornell in Feb or March.

Blount1046 wrote:

kwhitegocubs wrote:I would sell my soul (if it existed) to go to Cornell, so I recommend Cornell. On the other hand, I could go the self-interested route and say "Take the cash! Especially ITE" and open up another spot for my app .

Thanks for your input, and best of luck. What draws you to Cornell so much, if you don't mind me asking?

Well, the job prospects and their devotion to public interest law (three clinics!) are all great. The campus is amazing, but Ithaca is just about my idea of a dream city and dream location - it's perfect in every way as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I even mean the weather (seasons are great).

UFMatt wrote: Portability: Draw

I doubt that.

I would want to take a closer look at what the job figures are for Cornell and ND are since the recession started.

From what I've heard on here, neither sound that great, but ND's situation sounds really dire. And since I heard that from Edgar who is usually a super ND cheerleader, I'm inclined to believe it.

A 90K difference is a lot of money...but I think that the lost job opportunities still swing in favor of Cornell.

I guess I would rather be 90K more in debt and have a job....but of course there's the possibility that you'd be 90K more in debt and have no job anyway..... but I think the change in odds are worth it.

Again since the info for this year probably isn't out yet, it's a bit of a guess, but anecdotally it just sounds really really bad at ND.

How are ND and Cornell placing? Rumors seem to be ND-Top 10-15% and Cornell-Top 33%-40%

Are these numbers close?

kwhitegocubs wrote:Ithaca is just about my idea of a dream city and dream location

You don't hear that around here very often.

CyLaw wrote:Definitely wait until Cornell starts passing out money. I am in a similar boat with Iowa (Full ride / top third rank requirement) vs Cornell right now. But I am making no decisions until I get an award letter from Cornell in Feb or March.

I second this. Cornell is supposedly pretty generous with need-based grants, so even if your numbers aren't good enough for merit scholarships, you may get something.

Desert Fox wrote:How are ND and Cornell placing? Rumors seem to be ND-Top 10-15% and Cornell-Top 33%-40%

Are these numbers close?

Edgar makes it sound worse, but I guess nobody knows yet. The hiring season isn't over yet (although it mostly is) and it's hard to figure from the last year where summer hiring was fine and then there was berzerk no-offering.

I did my undergrad at Cornell and am a 1L at NDLS now. I'm not sure why you said "ND's situation sounds really dire." If anything, within the next couple of years NDLS should be going up in the rankings. The new $60 million law school will be complete and open in June, and is absolutely phenomenal. Having studied quite a bit in the CLS reading room when I was there, NDLS trumps it ten times over. State of the art building, a court room to die for and truly one of the nicest facilities in the country. Check out pics and info here: http://tour.nd.edu/locations/law-school.
Secondly, I have been nothing but impressed with the faculty and staff thus far. They are doing a fantastic job recruiting top notch professors including Stephen Smith who came to NDLS from UVA to make it a top 10 school. http://law.nd.edu/features/featured-fac ... phen-smith. The new Dean, Nell Newton, is also really warm and seems to be having a positive impact on the school thus far (this is her first year here).
Lastly, one of the unique features of ND is the alumni network. It is so incredibly strong and once you are part of the ND family you are part of that. I already have a summer job lined up with an alum and am really excited. Can't say enough about the network.
At any rate, I hope this helps and as fantastic as Cornell is, I would pick NDLS any day of the week. Feel free to PM me with any other ?s.

cornellgirl1 wrote:I did my undergrad at Cornell and am a 1L at NDLS now. I'm not sure why you said "ND's situation sounds really dire." If anything, within the next couple of years NDLS should be going up in the rankings. The new $60 million law school will be complete and open in June, and is absolutely phenomenal. Having studied quite a bit in the CLS reading room when I was there, NDLS trumps it ten times over. State of the art building, a court room to die for and truly one of the nicest facilities in the country. Check out pics and info here: http://tour.nd.edu/locations/law-school.
Secondly, I have been nothing but impressed with the faculty and staff thus far. They are doing a fantastic job recruiting top notch professors including Stephen Smith who came to NDLS from UVA to make it a top 10 school. http://law.nd.edu/features/featured-fac ... phen-smith. The new Dean, Nell Newton, is also really warm and seems to be having a positive impact on the school thus far (this is her first year here).
Lastly, one of the unique features of ND is the alumni network. It is so incredibly strong and once you are part of the ND family you are part of that. I already have a summer job lined up with an alum and am really excited. Can't say enough about the network.
At any rate, I hope this helps and as fantastic as Cornell is, I would pick NDLS any day of the week. Feel free to PM me with any other ?s.

Stephen Smith's quote is pretty ambigious: “I wanted to become a part of the making of a top-10, authentically Catholic law school. That has never been done before, but Notre Dame has all of the vital components.”

Does that mean he wants to be one of the top 10 Catholic law schools, or one of the top 10 law school that is Catholic?

cornellgirl1 wrote:I did my undergrad at Cornell and am a 1L at NDLS now. I'm not sure why you said "ND's situation sounds really dire." If anything, within the next couple of years NDLS should be going up in the rankings. The new $60 million law school will be complete and open in June, and is absolutely phenomenal. Having studied quite a bit in the CLS reading room when I was there, NDLS trumps it ten times over. State of the art building, a court room to die for and truly one of the nicest facilities in the country. Check out pics and info here: http://tour.nd.edu/locations/law-school.
Secondly, I have been nothing but impressed with the faculty and staff thus far. They are doing a fantastic job recruiting top notch professors including Stephen Smith who came to NDLS from UVA to make it a top 10 school. http://law.nd.edu/features/featured-fac ... phen-smith. The new Dean, Nell Newton, is also really warm and seems to be having a positive impact on the school thus far (this is her first year here).
Lastly, one of the unique features of ND is the alumni network. It is so incredibly strong and once you are part of the ND family you are part of that. I already have a summer job lined up with an alum and am really excited. Can't say enough about the network.
At any rate, I hope this helps and as fantastic as Cornell is, I would pick NDLS any day of the week. Feel free to PM me with any other ?s.

That's fine, but I was talking about jobs. People at ND make it seem as if the job situation from ND is horrific.

nycparalegal wrote:

cornellgirl1 wrote:I did my undergrad at Cornell and am a 1L at NDLS now. I'm not sure why you said "ND's situation sounds really dire." If anything, within the next couple of years NDLS should be going up in the rankings. The new $60 million law school will be complete and open in June, and is absolutely phenomenal. Having studied quite a bit in the CLS reading room when I was there, NDLS trumps it ten times over. State of the art building, a court room to die for and truly one of the nicest facilities in the country. Check out pics and info here: http://tour.nd.edu/locations/law-school.
Secondly, I have been nothing but impressed with the faculty and staff thus far. They are doing a fantastic job recruiting top notch professors including Stephen Smith who came to NDLS from UVA to make it a top 10 school. http://law.nd.edu/features/featured-fac ... phen-smith. The new Dean, Nell Newton, is also really warm and seems to be having a positive impact on the school thus far (this is her first year here).
Lastly, one of the unique features of ND is the alumni network. It is so incredibly strong and once you are part of the ND family you are part of that. I already have a summer job lined up with an alum and am really excited. Can't say enough about the network.
At any rate, I hope this helps and as fantastic as Cornell is, I would pick NDLS any day of the week. Feel free to PM me with any other ?s.

Stephen Smith's quote is pretty ambigious: “I wanted to become a part of the making of a top-10, authentically Catholic law school. That has never been done before, but Notre Dame has all of the vital components.”

Does that mean he wants to be one of the top 10 Catholic law schools, or one of the top 10 law school that is Catholic?

I'd assume he means the latter, since he says it's never been done before.

(although Georgetown has been in the top 10 before, however briefly - and however nominally Catholic)

That may very well be the case this year, but not for everyone. I have spoken with several 3Ls who did well during their tenure, took part in a journal and had no problem locking in top BigLaw jobs. That said, I have also spoken with others who fell somewhere around the median and didn't do a journal or moot court and have had a bit of a tougher time. Obviously my direct experience with the job market post NDLS is limited, but I can tell you that the Career Services Office is very useful and a great resource to tap into. As I stated earlier, I have had a pretty solid summer position lined up since Nov. 1 (first day 1Ls can technically talk to CSO) and the ND name definitely helped in that case. Hope that helps a bit!

CyLaw wrote:Definitely wait until Cornell starts passing out money. I am in a similar boat with Iowa (Full ride / top third rank requirement) vs Cornell right now. But I am making no decisions until I get an award letter from Cornell in Feb or March.

That is very true, I am sure I will qualify for at least some sort of need based grant/scholarship from Cornell in the coming months. Thank you.

cornellgirl1 wrote:I did my undergrad at Cornell and am a 1L at NDLS now. I'm not sure why you said "ND's situation sounds really dire." If anything, within the next couple of years NDLS should be going up in the rankings. The new $60 million law school will be complete and open in June, and is absolutely phenomenal. Having studied quite a bit in the CLS reading room when I was there, NDLS trumps it ten times over. State of the art building, a court room to die for and truly one of the nicest facilities in the country. Check out pics and info here: http://tour.nd.edu/locations/law-school.
Secondly, I have been nothing but impressed with the faculty and staff thus far. They are doing a fantastic job recruiting top notch professors including Stephen Smith who came to NDLS from UVA to make it a top 10 school. http://law.nd.edu/features/featured-fac ... phen-smith. The new Dean, Nell Newton, is also really warm and seems to be having a positive impact on the school thus far (this is her first year here).
Lastly, one of the unique features of ND is the alumni network. It is so incredibly strong and once you are part of the ND family you are part of that. I already have a summer job lined up with an alum and am really excited. Can't say enough about the network.
At any rate, I hope this helps and as fantastic as Cornell is, I would pick NDLS any day of the week. Feel free to PM me with any other ?s.

Thank you very much! I will be sure to contact you with more questions as I go through this process.

Another question I have based on what I have seen on this site is, what are the job prospects like outside of "big law?" Even if only the top 15% or 33% get big law, what do the other 66% to 85% of graduates do? Are the struggling to find work at smaller firms, or are they doing well and just not working "big law?" Still, even in this recession, I find it hard to believe that only 18-25 graduates from Notre Dame Law School each year are finding private practice work that they are satisfied with. What is even the salary difference from private practice big law to private practice not big law from Notre Dame or Cornell?