Anybody at Michigan now regretting it? Forum

[goblue1646]

This was something I was wondering as well. I would love to go to Michigan--it's my dream/reach school--and I was ecstatic when I got in two days ago (and STILL am ) but I wouldn't love getting 150,000 into debt...I think I'll go to Michigan, but I can't say I'm not nervous about the whole deal.

[doinmybest]

Michigan at sticker with COL taken into consideration (#s from their website) is around $190,530. This doesn't even include tuition increases, which everyone knows is inevitable.

Finaid.org estimates (still a rough estimate mind you) that to pay this loan off in ten years you would need to pay $2,460 a month.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $295,287.60 to be able to afford to repay this loan ($190,530). This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.6. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $196,858.40, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.0.

Finaid.org estimates that to pay this loan off in 30 years you would need to pay $1,526 a month.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $183,126.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.0. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $122,084.00, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.6.

Does this not scare anyone else considering those types of salaries don't exist??

[Doritos]

doinmybest: I know exactly how you feel. I will be attending UVa in the fall at most likely sticker or damn close. I put 30 years and 200k in that calculator and it said 1,300 per month. That's a lot but at the end of the day I can live with it. If the job offers in the private sector are too low (like 35k or 40k) then look into the LRAP and IBR. Biglaw of course can handle the loan payments and midlaw should too. If you make let's say 70k then after the 16k minimum loan payments for the year you have 54k. That's a grown up salary that plenty of people live on. Granted its not making it rain and you really want to pay the loan off before 30 years (or the interest will exceed the original loan!) but you at least won't be starving to death. Going to a top 10 school should set you up nicely to get a job that doesn't suck.

[Tangerine Gleam]

@doinmybest Thanks for posting that. It's truly mind-blowing...for this or any other school. I knew that interest would cause some rough additions to my loan figures, but I had no idea it would be so brutal. Yikes.

[doinmybest]

doinmybest: I know exactly how you feel. I will be attending UVa in the fall at most likely sticker or damn close. I put 30 years and 200k in that calculator and it said 1,300 per month. That's a lot but at the end of the day I can live with it. If the job offers in the private sector are too low (like 35k or 40k) then look into the LRAP and IBR. Biglaw of course can handle the loan payments and midlaw should too. If you make let's say 70k then after the 16k minimum loan payments for the year you have 54k. That's a grown up salary that plenty of people live on. Granted its not making it rain and you really want to pay the loan off before 30 years (or the interest will exceed the original loan!) but you at least won't be starving to death. Going to a top 10 school should set you up nicely to get a job that doesn't suck.

Thanks Doritos. You're probably right, I just wish even T10 schools weren't having trouble placing their grads in jobs. I think I'd feel a little better then.

[woeisme]

I have a friend at Michigan that's miserable. He tried to transfer and couldn't. He picked it over Duke and Cornell and says he'd go to either over M now. For him, I think it's just about the people. He thinks people aren't very friendly or welcoming. He's a 2L. On the other hand, I have a 1L friend who likes it a lot.

But yeah, I mean, if you're thinking you won't like Michigan, you probably won't. Trust your intuition. Not every school is for everyone and everywhere you look you'll find people who both love it and hate it. Again, this applies across the board to all schools.

Visit, visit, visit!

[rolark]

I have a friend at Michigan that's miserable. He tried to transfer and couldn't. He picked it over Duke and Cornell and says he'd go to either over M now. For him, I think it's just about the people. He thinks people aren't very friendly or welcoming. He's a 2L. On the other hand, I have a 1L friend who likes it a lot.

But yeah, I mean, if you're thinking you won't like Michigan, you probably won't. Trust your intuition. Not every school is for everyone and everywhere you look you'll find people who both love it and hate it. Again, this applies across the board to all schools.

Visit, visit, visit!

Really? Duke or Cornell over Michigan for the "friendliness" of the student body? That's interesting . . .

Can you be any more specific? i.e. What does he feel he's missing at Michigan that he'd get at Duke or Cornell?

[woeisme]

I have a friend at Michigan that's miserable. He tried to transfer and couldn't. He picked it over Duke and Cornell and says he'd go to either over M now. For him, I think it's just about the people. He thinks people aren't very friendly or welcoming. He's a 2L. On the other hand, I have a 1L friend who likes it a lot.

But yeah, I mean, if you're thinking you won't like Michigan, you probably won't. Trust your intuition. Not every school is for everyone and everywhere you look you'll find people who both love it and hate it. Again, this applies across the board to all schools.

Visit, visit, visit!

Really? Duke or Cornell over Michigan for the "friendliness" of the student body? That's interesting . . .

Can you be any more specific? i.e. What does he feel he's missing at Michigan that he'd get at Duke or Cornell?

Well, I guess he seems to think that D and C have more collegial environments. They're smaller and people just seem to be more supportive of one another. I don't think it's such an issue about competitiveness, but he doesn't feel that people at Michigan are really in it for each other. He says people are fairly arrogant and generally cold. To be fair, I'm sure there are people that feel that way about Duke or Cornell too, I just don't know them. This whole thread is fairly silly though since someone will always think that the grass is greener on the other side, right? So yeah, this should all be taken with a grain of salt.

[beesknees]

doinmybest: I know exactly how you feel. I will be attending UVa in the fall at most likely sticker or damn close. I put 30 years and 200k in that calculator and it said 1,300 per month. That's a lot but at the end of the day I can live with it. If the job offers in the private sector are too low (like 35k or 40k) then look into the LRAP and IBR. Biglaw of course can handle the loan payments and midlaw should too. If you make let's say 70k then after the 16k minimum loan payments for the year you have 54k. That's a grown up salary that plenty of people live on. Granted its not making it rain and you really want to pay the loan off before 30 years (or the interest will exceed the original loan!) but you at least won't be starving to death. Going to a top 10 school should set you up nicely to get a job that doesn't suck.

Thanks Doritos. You're probably right, I just wish even T10 schools weren't having trouble placing their grads in jobs. I think I'd feel a little better then.

Yeah, the fact that many people go to a T10 and don't get high paying jobs is unsettling when you're looking at the debt it takes to go there.

Am I the only one on here who doesn't want to repay on my student loans for 30 years? That's absolutely absurd to be considering it going into school (I can see how if you were screwed, its nice to know you can extend repayment). But thirty years is essentially a mortgage. And I want to own a home before I'm 55, it'd be tantamount to having 2 mortgages.

And in that 30 years, I hope to start a family and 30 years of student loan debt would make it so hard because a) children are black holes into which you throw money for 18+ years and b) I'd want to start saving for their education. Having to pay off my student debt until I'm in my fifties would make all of the above really difficult, not to mention other unforeseen life goals I may develop in the future.

So many people are telling me to go for the T10 and take out ~$180k in debt because of the lifetime opportunities it will open, but the lifetime implications of that debt seem to be huge.

[woeisme]

Yeah, the fact that many people go to a T10 and don't get high paying jobs is unsettling when you're looking at the debt it takes to go there.

Am I the only one on here who doesn't want to repay on my student loans for 30 years? That's absolutely absurd to be considering it going into school (I can see how if you were screwed, its nice to know you can extend repayment). But thirty years is essentially a mortgage. And I want to own a home before I'm 55, it'd be tantamount to having 2 mortgages.

And in that 30 years, I hope to start a family and 30 years of student loan debt would make it so hard because a) children are black holes into which you throw money for 18+ years and b) I'd want to start saving for their education. Having to pay off my student debt until I'm in my fifties would make all of the above really difficult, not to mention other unforeseen life goals I may develop in the future.

So many people are telling me to go for the T10 and take out ~$180k in debt because of the lifetime opportunities it will open, but the lifetime implications of that debt seem to be huge.

What schools are you talking about? What is the T10? Do you mean the T10 this year? This feels like an arbitrary cut-off. What are the options you're down to?

[Apple Tree]

doinmybest: I know exactly how you feel. I will be attending UVa in the fall at most likely sticker or damn close. I put 30 years and 200k in that calculator and it said 1,300 per month. That's a lot but at the end of the day I can live with it. If the job offers in the private sector are too low (like 35k or 40k) then look into the LRAP and IBR. Biglaw of course can handle the loan payments and midlaw should too. If you make let's say 70k then after the 16k minimum loan payments for the year you have 54k. That's a grown up salary that plenty of people live on. Granted its not making it rain and you really want to pay the loan off before 30 years (or the interest will exceed the original loan!) but you at least won't be starving to death. Going to a top 10 school should set you up nicely to get a job that doesn't suck.

Thanks Doritos. You're probably right, I just wish even T10 schools weren't having trouble placing their grads in jobs. I think I'd feel a little better then.

Yeah, the fact that many people go to a T10 and don't get high paying jobs is unsettling when you're looking at the debt it takes to go there.

Am I the only one on here who doesn't want to repay on my student loans for 30 years? That's absolutely absurd to be considering it going into school (I can see how if you were screwed, its nice to know you can extend repayment). But thirty years is essentially a mortgage. And I want to own a home before I'm 55, it'd be tantamount to having 2 mortgages.

And in that 30 years, I hope to start a family and 30 years of student loan debt would make it so hard because a) children are black holes into which you throw money for 18+ years and b) I'd want to start saving for their education. Having to pay off my student debt until I'm in my fifties would make all of the above really difficult, not to mention other unforeseen life goals I may develop in the future.

So many people are telling me to go for the T10 and take out ~$180k in debt because of the lifetime opportunities it will open, but the lifetime implications of that debt seem to be huge.

I don't want to be paying off my student loan 30 years later. That would suck. That's why I'm leaning heavily towards UT/Vandy. But on the other hand, I don't want to get 50k loan and can't find a job at all. That would suck too...

[JRMjr]

so this thread went from "did anyone regret choosing Michigan" to "I am afraid of all schools that result in lots of debt"

........

[Bronte]

Doinmybest: I too am very concerned about sticker at Michigan. Your monthly payment calculations are correct. However, I think you're relying a little bit too heavily on the salary projects made on that calculator. We should do it ourselves:

Code: Select all

Loan amount: $200,000
Interest rate: 8.00% (APR monthly)
Term: 10 years

Results in:

Monthly payment: $2,427
Annualized payment: $30,000 (rounded up)

(See http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/mortgage-calculator.aspx or use a time value of money application to calculate required monthly payments.)

If your gross income is your salary and your net income is your after-tax, after-loan payment income, then:

Code: Select all

Gross income * (1 - Effective tax rate) - Annualized payment = Net income
=> Gross income = (Net income + Annualized payment) / (1 - Effective tax rate)

So plug in your desired net income to arrive at your required gross income. For example, let's say you require a minimum $60,000 net income (this is after-tax, after-loan payment). Assume a 30% effective tax rate:

Code: Select all

(60000 + 30000) / (1 - .30) = $128,571

So, to pay off a $200,000 loan at 8% interest in 10 years you would need to make an average annual salary of at least roughly $130,000. So, yes, you would need to make biglaw--but you wouldn't need to make $180,000.

Of course, there's a variety of other options: decreasing your required net income, extending the term on your loan, using a Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP), using some sort of Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan. I don't know much about these programs, but they do exist. There is no doubt that taking sticker at Michigan is taking a risk, but it's not a futile effort as your earlier calculations suggested.

I would suggest that everyone make an Excel spreadsheet that simulates the calculations above. Type in some projected figures. Feel free to PM for assistance.

[rolark]

Of course, there's a variety of other options: decreasing your required net income, extending the term on your loan, using a Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP), using some sort of Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan. I don't know much about these programs, but they do exist. There is no doubt that taking sticker at Michigan is taking a risk, but it's not a futile effort as your earlier calculations suggested.

Keep in mind that Michigan's LRAP is available for people choosing any employment path, not just public interest folks. Between this and IBR, I'd say Michigan is one of the safer investments out the schools in its peer range.

[Z3RO]

http://www.law.harvard.edu/apps/sfs/cal ... home-calc/

I like this one.

[doinmybest]

Yeah, the fact that many people go to a T10 and don't get high paying jobs is unsettling when you're looking at the debt it takes to go there.

Am I the only one on here who doesn't want to repay on my student loans for 30 years? That's absolutely absurd to be considering it going into school (I can see how if you were screwed, its nice to know you can extend repayment). But thirty years is essentially a mortgage. And I want to own a home before I'm 55, it'd be tantamount to having 2 mortgages.

And in that 30 years, I hope to start a family and 30 years of student loan debt would make it so hard because a) children are black holes into which you throw money for 18+ years and b) I'd want to start saving for their education. Having to pay off my student debt until I'm in my fifties would make all of the above really difficult, not to mention other unforeseen life goals I may develop in the future.

So many people are telling me to go for the T10 and take out ~$180k in debt because of the lifetime opportunities it will open, but the lifetime implications of that debt seem to be huge.

What schools are you talking about? What is the T10? Do you mean the T10 this year? This feels like an arbitrary cut-off. What are the options you're down to?

woeisme, you are certainly right about going where the best fit is. I think some of us are concerned about debt vs job prospects rather than the fit.

I know you go to Cornell, and a close friend thats a 2L there said it's a great place, but I have also heard mixed things about it. Its not that I would choose Michigan over Cornell. It's just that Michigan has accepted me and I'm still waiting on Cornell. I'm more concerned about big debt. If Cornell accepted me and gave me money that would be huge.

This thread did derail a bit, sorry about that. But I think if anyone regrets Michigan or any other expensive school, then there is a good chance it's because they have a crippling debt. I wanted to see if I could lure those people out and get a real perspective on having that kind of debt and dealing with it.

[IAFG]

From what you've said with the 2L, NYU and LGBT issues, you probably spoke to the infamous EmmyD from here on TLS. I got the chance to meet him last year at ASW, and though a rather nice individual, he didn't feel Michigan was a particularly great fit for him. He transferred to NYU this year, and from what I've heard from my friends here who still talk to him, he isn't exactly in love with the experience there either.

obviously i wasn't there and don't know what Emmy may have said, but she is very happy at NYU. i know she would still recommend michigan to anyone though and has a lot of respect for the school.

[im_blue]

Doinmybest: I too am very concerned about sticker at Michigan. Your monthly payment calculations are correct. However, I think you're relying a little bit too heavily on the salary projects made on that calculator. We should do it ourselves:

Code: Select all

Loan amount: $200,000
Interest rate: 8.00% (APR monthly)
Term: 10 years

Results in:

Monthly payment: $2,427
Annualized payment: $30,000 (rounded up)

(See http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/mortgage-calculator.aspx or use a time value of money application to calculate required monthly payments.)

If your gross income is your salary and your net income is your after-tax, after-loan payment income, then:

Code: Select all

Gross income * (1 - Effective tax rate) - Annualized payment = Net income
=> Gross income = (Net income + Annualized payment) / (1 - Effective tax rate)

So plug in your desired net income to arrive at your required gross income. For example, let's say you require a minimum $60,000 net income (this is after-tax, after-loan payment). Assume a 30% effective tax rate:

Code: Select all

(60000 + 30000) / (1 - .30) = $128,571

So, to pay off a $200,000 loan at 8% interest in 10 years you would need to make an average annual salary of at least roughly $130,000. So, yes, you would need to make biglaw--but you wouldn't need to make $180,000.

Of course, there's a variety of other options: decreasing your required net income, extending the term on your loan, using a Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP), using some sort of Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan. I don't know much about these programs, but they do exist. There is no doubt that taking sticker at Michigan is taking a risk, but it's not a futile effort as your earlier calculations suggested.

I would suggest that everyone make an Excel spreadsheet that simulates the calculations above. Type in some projected figures. Feel free to PM for assistance.

According to this tax calculator, income tax is about 21% on $130k and 22% on $160k. So your calculation of $130k should really be about $114k, which is even better.

[FlightoftheEarls]

From what you've said with the 2L, NYU and LGBT issues, you probably spoke to the infamous EmmyD from here on TLS. I got the chance to meet him last year at ASW, and though a rather nice individual, he didn't feel Michigan was a particularly great fit for him. He transferred to NYU this year, and from what I've heard from my friends here who still talk to him, he isn't exactly in love with the experience there either.

obviously i wasn't there and don't know what Emmy may have said, but she is very happy at NYU. i know she would still recommend michigan to anyone though and has a lot of respect for the school.

Fair enough, I'm only speaking anecdotally from a friend who still speaks to him, and he has told her he is still unhappy. I was under the impression that he probably isn't in love with law school in general. Like I said, this is second-hand so I'm not an authority on how he feels. I'm hoping he does love it there.