Top Law Schools

Okay, I've succumbed. Here's mine.

White Male, Huge Public School

163, 3.8

Softs:
Biology Major (Is this even a boost?)
Worked at a small law firm 25-35 hours all through college
Editor in Chief of Undergraduate Journal on Science & Policy Issues
LORs: 1) Partner of Small Firm mentioned above 2) Professor of small bio ethics course (very familiar with my writing) 3) Professor or large course, but with whom I also worked while wearing my Editor in Chief hat.

Schools:

Michigan
UVA
Duke (fee waiver)
Berkeley
Cornell
Georgetown
George Washington
Texas
Boston College
Boston University
University of Washington
Hastings
Colorado Boulder
Arizona State
Arizona
Utah
BYU
Tulane

I know my LSAT is low. Do my softs help enough to get me into any of these places?

Shut out at the T14, guaranteed. Spotty chances at T30, it depends on the school. Check LSP. May get a bump at some publics if you're in-state. If your 3.8 is over a 3.85, try EDing to UVA, they might bite.

bump. similar numbers. i'm retaking in december though.

No, your softs are decent at best.

azbio wrote:
Michigan - out
UVA - out
Duke (fee waiver) - out
Berkeley - out
Cornell - out
Georgetown - out
George Washington - wl/in?
Texas - wl
Boston College - wl
Boston University - wl/in?
University of Washington - wl/in or just in?
Hastings - in
Colorado Boulder - in
Arizona State - in
Arizona - in
Utah - in? (no clue)
BYU - in if Mormon? otherwise w/l in?
Tulane - in

I know my LSAT is low. Do my softs help enough to get me into any of these places?

LSP shows that I might have a chance in T14 and a fair shot at T30. Really, I wonder what people think of my softs? Are they helpful at all? Not much? Not even a little bit?

I figured, if LSP gave me a slight shot, it might be worth applying if my softs are any good. My problem is, I don't know if they're any good.

mistergoft wrote:No, your softs are decent at best.

azbio wrote:
Michigan - out
UVA - out
Duke (fee waiver) - out
Berkeley - out
Cornell - out
Georgetown - out
George Washington - wl/in?
Texas - wl
Boston College - wl
Boston University - wl/in?
University of Washington - wl/in or just in?
Hastings - in
Colorado Boulder - in
Arizona State - in
Arizona - in
Utah - in? (no clue)
BYU - in if Mormon? otherwise w/l in?
Tulane - in

I know my LSAT is low. Do my softs help enough to get me into any of these places?

I think these predictions are pretty solid, but I would probably be more pessimistic about BC, BU, and probably UWash (assuming you're not in-state).

azbio wrote:LSP shows that I might have a chance in T14 and a fair shot at T30. Really, I wonder what people think of my softs? Are they helpful at all? Not much? Not even a little bit?

I figured, if LSP gave me a slight shot, it might be worth applying if my softs are any good. My problem is, I don't know if they're any good.

Applying anywhere but UVA ED or Michigan if you're in-state is a waste of money without fee-waivers, IMO. Not trying to be a tool here, just being realistic. I have decent softs and numbers that are both higher than yours and in the last cycle (08/09) I was a T14 shutout (though I only applied to like 3 T14 schools). You should focus on schools between 15 and 30, those are more realistic reaches/targets.

azbio wrote:LSP shows that I might have a chance in T14 and a fair shot at T30. Really, I wonder what people think of my softs? Are they helpful at all? Not much? Not even a little bit?

I figured, if LSP gave me a slight shot, it might be worth applying if my softs are any good. My problem is, I don't know if they're any good.

Those numbers don't seem to have much of a shot a shot at the T14. I wouldn't tell you not to apply, but I really can't see those numbers being good enough. Those are not bad softs, but they are what they are. Tons of people have biology majors or major in more difficult disciplines. That is not a soft. A lot of people also have good letters of rec from professors and employers. Working a lot througout undergrad is good and related experience is nice, but again, a lot of people have done this. The journal editor is pretty solid, but thats about the only thing that stands out, and again, its not like plenty of other people applying won't have similar things. I don't mean this negatively; your softs are ok and shouldn't hurt you, but are NOT gonna make a big difference...Especially in the T14 where most people have done a shit ton of stuff outside of class. Those softs aren't going to get you in anywhere where your stats are not strongly competitive.

15-30 are definitely my targets. I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for where I should apply as my "reach" schools. Actually, the state schools in AZ look really good to me, as well as BYU, all because of the low tuition. I'm still unsure whether or not it would be worth it to pay the extra tuition for a bigger name school.

If your GPA is > 3.85 then you might just throw an app at Cornell and Berkeley, but don't really expect anything.

With very similar numbers, some other schools I would say you should also consider:

Illinois,
Bloomington,
Notre Dame,
Fordham,
Emory
GWU, (prob wl/in)

I'm still unsure whether or not it would be worth it to pay the extra tuition for a bigger name school.

If you are between sticker at a 30 or 2/3 scholarship at a 45, I would prob go w the scholarship. I'd say do not go into the t2. But if it is between a t23 plus GWU or a t30 w/ 1/2 scholarship, I would pay for the t23. I think, for example, BC or BU is worth sticker if you get in and it is your highest school.

T30 is overrated. I go to one of the state law schools in AZ/CO/UT. If you want to come back out West to work, don't consider schools like GW, Wash U, and others. In Phoenix, they will look more favorably on a UA/BYU/maybe even ASU/UU/CU degree than they would on a Wash U or GW degree. Local markets tend to favor their local schools, so even if you get into a school with limited national prestige, (T15-25) it likely wouldn't take you any farther than your a UA degree in the Phoenix market (and to a lesser extent in other secondary Western legal markets.) Also, firms don't make a strong distinction between T1 and T2--they aren't looking at the USNEWS rankings every year to see if you're on the "better than 50" side. In other words, don't entirely overlook ASU (if in-state) if they give you good money just because they are a "T2" school.

If you got into any of those T15-25 schools, you'd likely be looking at paying sticker at a lot of them, I don't think that's wise--especially in an unsure legal market. Even if we expect an economic recovery by then, no one knows how law firms might restructure associate pay.

My advice: if you're Mormon go to BYU. You'll save a ton of money. Even if you hate your three years in Provo you'll thank yourself at the end of the time when you're almost debt-free and you can choose to live anywhere. Otherwise go to UA/ASU or CO/UU if you're interested in Denver/SLC.

With regard to gworbust's suggestions, I'd skip all of them except Notre Dame. Notre Dame has decent placement in the PHX market. Further, if you're interested in staying out West (and by your list it looks like you are) I would say that you should absolutely NOT consider BC/BU at sticker. Way too much debt, with no way to know if there will even be high-paying jobs to pay that debt down.

I'm not saying that the legal market won't recover--I'm saying that biglaw associate salary might not be what it once was.

wardboro wrote:T30 is overrated. I go to one of the state law schools in AZ/CO/UT. If you want to come back out West to work, don't consider schools like GW, Wash U, and others. In Phoenix, they will look more favorably on a UA/BYU/maybe even ASU/UU/CU degree than they would on a Wash U or GW degree. Local markets tend to favor their local schools, so even if you get into a school with limited national prestige, (T15-25) it likely wouldn't take you any farther than your a UA degree in the Phoenix market (and to a lesser extent in other secondary Western legal markets.) Also, firms don't make a strong distinction between T1 and T2--they aren't looking at the USNEWS rankings every year to see if you're on the "better than 50" side. In other words, don't entirely overlook ASU (if in-state) if they give you good money just because they are a "T2" school.

If you got into any of those T15-25 schools, you'd likely be looking at paying sticker at a lot of them, I don't think that's wise--especially in an unsure legal market. Even if we expect an economic recovery by then, no one knows how law firms might restructure associate pay.

My advice: if you're Mormon go to BYU. You'll save a ton of money. Even if you hate your three years in Provo you'll thank yourself at the end of the time when you're almost debt-free and you can choose to live anywhere. Otherwise go to UA/ASU or CO/UU if you're interested in Denver/SLC.

With regard to gworbust's suggestions, I'd skip all of them except Notre Dame. Notre Dame has decent placement in the PHX market. Further, if you're interested in staying out West (and by your list it looks like you are) I would say that you should absolutely NOT consider BC/BU at sticker. Way too much debt, with no way to know if there will even be high-paying jobs to pay that debt down.

I'm not saying that the legal market won't recover--I'm saying that biglaw associate salary might not be what it once was.

If I was absolutely certain I wanted to come back out west right away, I would take this advice in a second. My main concern is, I think I would really love to work in DC for a while. Eventually, I probably would like to come back to AZ, but I think it would be neat to work in Boston/NY/DC.

you really dont know - people told me it was unlikely i would break the T14 with a 164,3.98 this cycle

im in at michigan ED (instate and softs that are stronger than yours) so the predictions didnt fly

however, if you mold your application the right way, you have a chance although T14 is unlikely...

Id say youve got a good shot at T30 but again as mentioned, i dont know how the $ would work out...definitely throw one at ND, do a why ND essay, and gear your PS towards them in that instance...if you want DC, GW you have a small shot american youre in...anyways its all relative

throw your apps out regardless of what people tell you and hopefully something will catch an adcomms eye, good luck

Okay, I'm back. My applications are in at Duke, GULC, Cornell, BU, GW, George Mason, William & Mary, UWashington, Tulane, Arizona State, University of Arizona, U Colorado Boulder, Utah, & BYU. I'll try to update my profile for people who care.

The consensus on TLS seems to indicate that paying sticker is worthwhile for T14 and maybe a few others (though that still seems highly debatable). I'm a longshot even for admission to those schools... so I'm looking for scholarships elsewhere.

I know its late in the cycle now, but I would still consider applying to a schools ranked 30-70ish if I thought they might give me a full ride. Any suggestions?

azbio wrote:If I was absolutely certain I wanted to come back out west right away, I would take this advice in a second. My main concern is, I think I would really love to work in DC for a while. Eventually, I probably would like to come back to AZ, but I think it would be neat to work in Boston/NY/DC.

I'd throw an ED app at UVA if you want DC and T14 (and if you'd be happy there, of course). Probably a long shot, but you'd find out in two weeks and you could be surprised.

Yeah, I'll have to wait another week before I can ED (I'm waiting on ED from GW), but I think I might give UVA a try.


At this point, though, after hearing all the horror stories of law graduates not finding jobs, and not being able to pay back loans, a full scholarship even at a lower T1 sounds like a safer choice... at least as long as it has a decent regional reputation.

azbio wrote:Yeah, I'll have to wait another week before I can ED (I'm waiting on ED from GW), but I think I might give UVA a try.


At this point, though, after hearing all the horror stories of law graduates not finding jobs, and not being able to pay back loans, a full scholarship even at a lower T1 sounds like a safer choice... at least as long as it has a decent regional reputation.

Before you ED at UVA, make sure neither school prohibits you from EDing at both. I know you'll be let out of your contract from GW if you don't get in, but there may be something in the fine print about EDing twice in the same cycle. You might want to call/email the admissions offices at both schools to double check. It'd be awful if you got in to UVA, only to find out you broke some aspect of the contract (or if it came up in C&F).

A 163 is not going to get anywhere near ED at GW (full ride). This year ITE I bet the minimum will be be near a 168/169.

azbio wrote:Yeah, I'll have to wait another week before I can ED (I'm waiting on ED from GW), but I think I might give UVA a try.


At this point, though, after hearing all the horror stories of law graduates not finding jobs, and not being able to pay back loans, a full scholarship even at a lower T1 sounds like a safer choice... at least as long as it has a decent regional reputation.

The thing is that your softs don't matter when you have shit numbers.

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2807 wrote:I may end up with similar numbers, but my softs are quite different. Do you think this would help or are softs just not enough to overcome these numbers for a top 14 ?

LSADAS GPA: I believe it will be 3.84 or 3.86 (can not get a straight answer until I submit transcripts)
LSAT: Unk, assuming low 160s... 163?

Softs/Facts:
-38yrs old (will be 39 when starting in 2011)
-injured/disabled/retired Police Officer (8 yrs on job)
-BA HIstory (3.95 gpa), AA also
-Certified Paralegal (UC Irvine, ABA approved course)(no work experience)
-Lic Realtor, top agent 2 years in a row
- (3) Lic CA Contractor
--residential contracting for 20 yrs
-Medal of Valor awardee from U.S. Police Officer Hall Of Fame
-Owned numerous small biz's
-Many letters of accommodation from public, supervisors and 1 from California State Senate, and California State Assembly.
--Vast experience in leadership, and real world issues.. to make for a fine PS.

Thanks for any advice. I am really curious if a lower than great LSAT will make the top 14 schools not even open/look at my file/softs?

Thanks

Softs only normally break ties, they won't make up for a low LSAT - unless you last name is maybe Obama or Bush.

2807 wrote:I may end up with similar numbers, but my softs are quite different. Do you think this would help or are softs just not enough to overcome these numbers for a top 14 ?

LSADAS GPA: I believe it will be 3.84 or 3.86 (can not get a straight answer until I submit transcripts)
LSAT: Unk, assuming low 160s... 163?

Softs/Facts:
-38yrs old (will be 39 when starting in 2011)
-injured/disabled/retired Police Officer (8 yrs on job)
-BA HIstory (3.95 gpa), AA also[*][/i]
-Certified Paralegal (UC Irvine, ABA approved course)(no work experience)
-Lic Realtor, top agent 2 years in a row
- (3) Lic CA Contractor
--residential contracting for 20 yrs
-Medal of Valor awardee from U.S. Police Officer Hall Of Fame
-Owned numerous small biz's
-Many letters of accommodation from public, supervisors and 1 from California State Senate, and California State Assembly.
--Vast experience in leadership, and real world issues.. to make for a fine PS.

Thanks for any advice. I am really curious if a lower than great LSAT will make the top 14 schools not even open/look at my file/softs?

Thanks

You're African American? or did you mean MA?

If the former, you are likely in almost everywhere.

If the latter, it really doesn't matter as much (as the previous poster said, it breaks ties).

I'm not going to lie to you: I personally believe some law schools age discriminate in accepting applicants (however, you would still get into a good law school)

The real issue is, would a firm hire you over a someone in their 20's?

Aberzombie1892 wrote:

2807 wrote:I may end up with similar numbers, but my softs are quite different. Do you think this would help or are softs just not enough to overcome these numbers for a top 14 ?

LSADAS GPA: I believe it will be 3.84 or 3.86 (can not get a straight answer until I submit transcripts)
LSAT: Unk, assuming low 160s... 163?

Softs/Facts:
-38yrs old (will be 39 when starting in 2011)
-injured/disabled/retired Police Officer (8 yrs on job)
-BA HIstory (3.95 gpa), AA also[*][/i]
-Certified Paralegal (UC Irvine, ABA approved course)(no work experience)
-Lic Realtor, top agent 2 years in a row
- (3) Lic CA Contractor
--residential contracting for 20 yrs
-Medal of Valor awardee from U.S. Police Officer Hall Of Fame
-Owned numerous small biz's
-Many letters of accommodation from public, supervisors and 1 from California State Senate, and California State Assembly.
--Vast experience in leadership, and real world issues.. to make for a fine PS.

Thanks for any advice. I am really curious if a lower than great LSAT will make the top 14 schools not even open/look at my file/softs?

Thanks

You're African American? or did you mean MA?

If the former, you are likely in almost everywhere.

If the latter, it really doesn't matter as much (as the previous poster said, it breaks ties).

I'm not going to lie to you: I personally believe some law schools age discriminate in accepting applicants (however, you would still get into a good law school)

The real issue is, would a firm hire you over a someone in their 20's?

Agreed, a URM would change everything. But other than that, while your softs do sound impressive and probably will allow for a nice PS, in the end it's your numbers that get you in. I hate to be so cynical but that's what I have experienced.

.

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