GPA: 3.7 LSAT: 150 Strong softs Forum

[sagebrush23]

I have a 3.7 GPA (3.9 in my major). I got 150 on the LSAT (I will attach an addendum explaining briefly that my husband's father died unexpectedly two days before the December test and I didn't have time to retake.)

Other factors: "Mature" candidate, used to balancing significant family responsibilities, full time school and work; have lived abroad for 5 years; undergraduate research projects on International Law and Middle East which were honored/recognized; articles published; 10 years work experience in community organizing/social activism/non-profits; 5 languages studied (fluent in English & French, intermediate in Spanish; beginner in Arabic and Hebrew); lots of travel experience; extra training in Mid-East conflict and conflict resolution; dance and art training.

So, my GPA is good, not great, my LSATs are a disaster. My strengths lie in the non-numerical part of my application. My personal statements show an ability to overcome obstacles and express interest in International Law with an emphasis on the Middle East.

I am a 34 year old married white female from a relatively poor socio-economic background (which I don't think at my age is really taken into consideration).

Any predictions for: NYU, Fordham, Columbia, Georgetown, American, George Washington. They are all reaches, I realize, but it's either a Top 20 or an MA in International Law abroad. Other suggestions would be welcomed - especially schools that are more receptive to older students with experience, the only caveat being I am limited to East Coast schools as my husband has to be closer to France for family reasons.

Thank you very much in advance and best New Year wishes to all. This forum is a wonderful resource, especially for those of us navigating the admissions process on our own.

[screech]

Best of luck!

[jewtangclan03]

You have to retake if you want any shot at your desired schools. Your softs aren't going to be strong enough to overcome that 150 LSAT.

Out of the places you listed, I could maybe see American taking a flyer on you for their PT program.. but even that is a longshot. A 3.7/150, even for a nontraditional applicant, means you're probably looking at t3/t4 schools. Maybe that MA would be a better option for you.

[Action Jackson]

MA in International Law abroad

You softs don't overcome your LSAT.

[markakis]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

I'm not on any adcomm but I admire your courage and commitment. All one really needs is to make an impression on an adcomm or a majority of them to get in. Yes, your LSAT is low, but the review process is holistic and I wouldn't not give it a try.
Good luck to you and sorry to hear about your father-in-law

[aed9]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

Wow, I'm not sure why this comment was so hostile. Markakis, I too have respect for what the OP has accomplished; however, I agree with the prior posters. Her LSAT score is just too low for any of the schools to which she has applied.

OP: Why is it so important that you attend a Top 20 school- or American? Is that a necessity for what you want to do in international law? (not trying to be rude, I really just don't know much about that area of law and if T3/4 schools have any similar programs). My advice would be to either do the MA or retake the LSAT and apply again next year. Good luck, though, as it sounds like you already sent your applications- and who knows; perhaps someone will bite.

[Grad_Student]

You will not get into any of those schools. Had off to get an MA or retake, no way around it.

[Action Jackson]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up!

The OP asked for us to give our thoughts and you say we should "shut the heck up" for not blowing smoke up her ass? Smart.

[sarcasmpolice]

[dudeman101]

two words:

re

take

you have great softs and solid GPA - there is no reason to waste them with such a sub-par LSAT score. study, study, study, retake, break 160, have a shot at some of those schools (minus Columbia and NYU - for those you might need to break 170, or at least be close). 10 points is very doable with a smart study plan and hard work.

[sagebrush23]

I just wanted to say thanks for comments - of all sorts. I appreciate everyone's honesty and points-of-view. I've received differing feedback, not just in this thread, regarding the weight of LSAT/GPA relative to softs; it seems to be an ongoing debate regarding the how "holistically" schools consider applications, and obviously it differs depending on the school.

At any rate, thanks again for those who took the time to reply and here's to more justice in 2009!

[etwake]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

Are you for real???? I got a good idea, lets lie to her and say that she has a great chance at all of them. Probably looking at a full ride to Forham with significant money from NYU and Columbia. No, she came to TLS because she wants some real advice. She has absolutely no chance at any top 20 school with a 150 LSAT, even if she somehow managed to cure cancer and win an olympic gold medal. Congratulations that you think that she has a shot at American and GW, but she simply doesn't. Please don't give out bad advice like that because it ruins the credibility of TLS. By the way, the harm in trying is the ~$500 she's going to blow on app fees to those schools.

Anyways, to the Original Poster, with a 3.7 and some strong soft factors, you are likely going to have to break a 164+ to get into a T20 school, even with strong soft factors. What you listed as your soft factors are strong, but they are not good enough to separate you from the pack in a t20 school, as every single candidate will likely have some sort of interesting story to tell (but they areinteresting nonetheless). Getting a 164 is not impossible by any means, and if you browse around these forums, you'll find excellent study guides and tips for doing this. Just be prepared to devoting a lot of your free time to doing this. If you're serious about getting into a t20 law school, then maybe look into taking a powerscore or testmasters class, as the consensus is that these are the 2 best classes for LSAT prep. Good Luck, and hope this advice helps.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, here's your chances at schools with a 150 LSAT and 3.7 GPA:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=150&gpa=3. ... o&range=no
-Slim to none chance at any T50 school
Here's your chances if you raise that LSAT to a 165:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=165&gpa=3.7
Those 15 Points will make a large difference in your future.

[LSATahhhh]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

Are you for real???? I got a good idea, lets lie to her and say that she has a great chance at all of them. Probably looking at a full ride to Forham with significant money from NYU and Columbia. No, she came to TLS because she wants some real advice. She has absolutely no chance at any top 20 school with a 150 LSAT, even if she somehow managed to cure cancer and win an olympic gold medal. Congratulations that you think that she has a shot at American and GW, but she simply doesn't. Please don't give out bad advice like that because it ruins the credibility of TLS. By the way, the harm in trying is the ~$500 she's going to blow on app fees to those schools.

Anyways, to the Original Poster, with a 3.7 and some strong soft factors, you are likely going to have to break a 164+ to get into a T20 school, even with strong soft factors. What you listed as your soft factors are strong, but they are not good enough to separate you from the pack in a t20 school, as every single candidate will likely have some sort of interesting story to tell (but they areinteresting nonetheless). Getting a 164 is not impossible by any means, and if you browse around these forums, you'll find excellent study guides and tips for doing this. Just be prepared to devoting a lot of your free time to doing this. If you're serious about getting into a t20 law school, then maybe look into taking a powerscore or testmasters class, as the consensus is that these are the 2 best classes for LSAT prep. Good Luck, and hope this advice helps.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, here's your chances at schools with a 150 LSAT and 3.7 GPA:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=150&gpa=3. ... o&range=no
-Slim to none chance at any T50 school
Here's your chances if you raise that LSAT to a 165:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=165&gpa=3.7
Those 15 Points will make a large difference in your future.

I seriously disagree with the bolded portion of your statement. All you need pretty much is a Bronze or Silver to get into T10 even with a 140 LSAT. LSATs in the 150-154 ranges do place students in T14 according to LSAC ABA statistics, not many, but it happens. So what does this tell us? Softs do matter.

[etwake]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

Are you for real???? I got a good idea, lets lie to her and say that she has a great chance at all of them. Probably looking at a full ride to Forham with significant money from NYU and Columbia. No, she came to TLS because she wants some real advice. She has absolutely no chance at any top 20 school with a 150 LSAT, even if she somehow managed to cure cancer and win an olympic gold medal. Congratulations that you think that she has a shot at American and GW, but she simply doesn't. Please don't give out bad advice like that because it ruins the credibility of TLS. By the way, the harm in trying is the ~$500 she's going to blow on app fees to those schools.

Anyways, to the Original Poster, with a 3.7 and some strong soft factors, you are likely going to have to break a 164+ to get into a T20 school, even with strong soft factors. What you listed as your soft factors are strong, but they are not good enough to separate you from the pack in a t20 school, as every single candidate will likely have some sort of interesting story to tell (but they areinteresting nonetheless). Getting a 164 is not impossible by any means, and if you browse around these forums, you'll find excellent study guides and tips for doing this. Just be prepared to devoting a lot of your free time to doing this. If you're serious about getting into a t20 law school, then maybe look into taking a powerscore or testmasters class, as the consensus is that these are the 2 best classes for LSAT prep. Good Luck, and hope this advice helps.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, here's your chances at schools with a 150 LSAT and 3.7 GPA:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=150&gpa=3. ... o&range=no
-Slim to none chance at any T50 school
Here's your chances if you raise that LSAT to a 165:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=165&gpa=3.7
Those 15 Points will make a large difference in your future.

I seriously disagree with the bolded portion of your statement. All you need pretty much is a Bronze or Silver to get into T10 even with a 140 LSAT. LSATs in the 150-154 ranges do place students in T14 according to LSAC ABA statistics, not many, but it happens. So what does this tell us? Softs do matter.

I agree, Its no secret that soft factors do matter, but not as much as being an African American, Native American, or Hispanic. For a 23 year old applicant her softs would be great. For a 35 year old applicant, they are not. They show many good qualities and she'll likely bring something to her future law class that no one will be able to, but they don't demonstrate that she has excelled in her respective field enough to completely ignore how abysmally low a 150 LSAT is for t20. A Non-Traditional applicant (someone who has been out of undergrad for a while) will generally help the most in situations where they have a strong LSAT score, but a low undergrad GPA. It will not work as well in the OP's situation, where she has a relatively strong GPA but a lower LSAT score. My opinion (I'm not saying that its right or wrong, just what I believe): any bump that she gets from her soft factors would be marginal at best. If I was going to define it numerically, I'd say it may account for a maximum 2 point jump in LSAT.

[LSATahhhh]

Unless any one of you is a member of an adcomm in one of these schools, I suggest you shut the heck up! OP: no harm in trying - I personally think you have a fair shot at American and GW. i respect what you have done for the last couple of years and the family responsibilities you presently have.

Are you for real???? I got a good idea, lets lie to her and say that she has a great chance at all of them. Probably looking at a full ride to Forham with significant money from NYU and Columbia. No, she came to TLS because she wants some real advice. She has absolutely no chance at any top 20 school with a 150 LSAT, even if she somehow managed to cure cancer and win an olympic gold medal. Congratulations that you think that she has a shot at American and GW, but she simply doesn't. Please don't give out bad advice like that because it ruins the credibility of TLS. By the way, the harm in trying is the ~$500 she's going to blow on app fees to those schools.

Anyways, to the Original Poster, with a 3.7 and some strong soft factors, you are likely going to have to break a 164+ to get into a T20 school, even with strong soft factors. What you listed as your soft factors are strong, but they are not good enough to separate you from the pack in a t20 school, as every single candidate will likely have some sort of interesting story to tell (but they areinteresting nonetheless). Getting a 164 is not impossible by any means, and if you browse around these forums, you'll find excellent study guides and tips for doing this. Just be prepared to devoting a lot of your free time to doing this. If you're serious about getting into a t20 law school, then maybe look into taking a powerscore or testmasters class, as the consensus is that these are the 2 best classes for LSAT prep. Good Luck, and hope this advice helps.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, here's your chances at schools with a 150 LSAT and 3.7 GPA:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=150&gpa=3. ... o&range=no
-Slim to none chance at any T50 school
Here's your chances if you raise that LSAT to a 165:
http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=165&gpa=3.7
Those 15 Points will make a large difference in your future.

I seriously disagree with the bolded portion of your statement. All you need pretty much is a Bronze or Silver to get into T10 even with a 140 LSAT. LSATs in the 150-154 ranges do place students in T14 according to LSAC ABA statistics, not many, but it happens. So what does this tell us? Softs do matter.

I agree, Its no secret that soft factors do matter, but not as much as being an African American, Native American, or Hispanic. For a 23 year old applicant her softs would be great. For a 35 year old applicant, they are not. They show many good qualities and she'll likely bring something to her future law class that no one will be able to, but they don't demonstrate that she has excelled in her respective field enough to completely ignore how abysmally low a 150 LSAT is for t20. A Non-Traditional applicant (someone who has been out of undergrad for a while) will generally help the most in situations where they have a strong LSAT score, but a low undergrad GPA. It will not work as well in the OP's situation, where she has a relatively strong GPA but a lower LSAT score. My opinion (I'm not saying that its right or wrong, just what I believe): any bump that she gets from her soft factors would be marginal at best. If I was going to define it numerically, I'd say it may account for a maximum 2 point jump in LSAT.

+1

[burge104]

there is no harm in trying! Have hope and don't let people discourage you. I like to think adcomms are not statistical monsters, but actually have souls and look into the scoft factors and character of an applicant. Your drive and committment to excellence is evident and I'd like to think you have a shot at some good schools. GOOD LUCK!

[billyez]

First of all, I'm really sorry for your loss OP. This was the first time you took the test so schools will understand the circumstnaces anyway.

There was someone who got into William and Mary with a 2.2 and a 154 I believe. Like you, they had outstanding softs. However, with a 3.7 GPA, it would really be wise to retake the test. With a 3.7, 150, and excellent softs, it's possible that you could get into a lower T20. But understand that this is a pyrric victory (or however you spell it). You won't be getting any money with such a low LSAT.

Good luck. If you do decide to retake, I know you'll do better. Unlike some of us who have retaken, with the kind of work you've done already it's clear that your capable of blowing this thing out of the water.

[Mr. Matlock]

--ImageRemoved--