3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

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jpm363

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3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby jpm363 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:30 pm

LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby FN-2187 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:37 pm

jpm363 wrote:LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?


Softs never make up for numbers. My prediction is everyone will encourage you to retake if T14 is your goal.
Last edited by FN-2187 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby goldenbear2020 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:01 pm

Best you can do is probably in the T30 range (USC, GW, BU, BC, Fordham, etc.). Retake if you want T14.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:19 pm

Those are eh softs. Fulbright is nice, but not a soft that makes a difference.

They won't make any difference with your numbers. You will strike out from the t13, maybe get into the GW tier.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby Mullens » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:23 pm

I always click these threads to see if the OP actually has super softs. I think I’ve only been impressed by the softs once or twice. I wasn’t here.

OP, you won’t outperform your numbers so retake for T14

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby LawTweet » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:28 pm

FN-2187 wrote:
jpm363 wrote:LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?


Softs never make up for numbers. My prediction is everyone will encourage you to retake if T14 is your goal.


That's absolutely false. There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.

I'm not saying OP has equally good softs but certainly softs CAN make up for numbers sometimes.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby wmbuff » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:34 pm

Mullens wrote:I always click these threads to see if the OP actually has super softs. I think I’ve only been impressed by the softs once or twice. I wasn’t here.

OP, you won’t outperform your numbers so retake for T14


I'm kinda curious to see what a hardened forum old-timer thinks of as impressive softs. Any examples for the rest of us to look at and weep at the futility of hoping our softs help us?
Last edited by wmbuff on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby FN-2187 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:42 pm

LawTweet wrote:
That's absolutely false. There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.

I'm not saying OP has equally good softs but certainly softs CAN make up for numbers sometimes.


"Never" was a strong choice of word I guess, but "softs can sometimes make up for numbers" felt like I was giving the OP false hope.
Last edited by FN-2187 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby silenttimer » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:08 pm

OP -- with your numbers and softs, you might sneak into one or two lower T14s. But your chances are not great.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby Mullens » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:56 pm

wmbuff wrote:
Mullens wrote:I always click these threads to see if the OP actually has super softs. I think I’ve only been impressed by the softs once or twice. I wasn’t here.

OP, you won’t outperform your numbers so retake for T14


I'm kinda curious to see what a hardened forum old-timer thinks of as impressive softs. Any examples for the rest of us to look at and weep at the futility of hoping our softs help us?


The following are softs that I’ve seen people have here (or that I know of from various T14s) that I’ve found impressive:

1. Medal-winning Olympic athlete
2. Pro Bowl NFL Player
3. Best-selling author (someone I had actually heard of before)
4. People on Forbes 30 under 30 lists (which have their own problems but an example of what actually registers as impressive)
5. Founder of a non-profit that raises millions of dolllars/year
6. Founder of tech company sold for nine figures
7. Former/retired Managing Director of a well-known private equity fund

It’s not that Rhodes/Fulbrights aren’t impressive, it’s just that there are enough of them in law school that it doesn’t register to me as unique. There are dozens of both each year and it’s a great accomplishment but idk if it actually makes up for bad numbers.

Don’t get me started on people who think that being the leader of a couple clubs is an impressive soft. A lot of people at T14s have done stuff like that. It’s the norm, not an exception. One of the great things about attending a highly-ranked Law school is that your classmates have done some impressive things and will do more in the future. It’s great to be surrounded by people like that, but a lot of people have to re-gauge from what’s impressive on their respective college campus to what’s impressive in the real world where the baseline jumps up. Like, if you told someone random at a cocktail party 5+ years after it happened, would they find it impressive?

As for OP, I don’t think a teaching Fulbright would make a difference at all. If you did a cool research Fulbright and your other work was meaningful and full-time (like you worked for the UN/state department in a meaningful capacity for 2+ years not as an intern or fellow) then you might sneak into a T14 or two. Problem is, it would probably be at sticker and that’s not worth it so you should retake.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 pm

LawTweet wrote:
FN-2187 wrote:
jpm363 wrote:LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?


Softs never make up for numbers. My prediction is everyone will encourage you to retake if T14 is your goal.


That's absolutely false. There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.

I'm not saying OP has equally good softs but certainly softs CAN make up for numbers sometimes.

To the extent that’s true (and I’m not convinced many non-URM 150s LSATs people are in the T14) they are likely splitters with much higher GPAs than the OP (that’s not a crappy GPA by any means but it’s no 3.9+).

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby icechicken » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:11 pm

LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby mcmand » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 pm

Just retake dude, if T14 really is your goal.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby emkay625 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm

LawTweet wrote:
FN-2187 wrote:
jpm363 wrote:LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?


Softs never make up for numbers. My prediction is everyone will encourage you to retake if T14 is your goal.


That's absolutely false. There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.

I'm not saying OP has equally good softs but certainly softs CAN make up for numbers sometimes.


I find this very, very hard to believe unless the person is the child of an important politician or very, very rich parents. Where did you see this?

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby LawTweet » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:47 pm

emkay625 wrote:
LawTweet wrote:
FN-2187 wrote:
jpm363 wrote:LGBTQ, Fulbrighter, State Department and UN work, graduating with an MA from T-20 university (GGPA 4.0). Will the softs make up for my numbers or am I - as I fear - doomed to retake the LSAT?


Softs never make up for numbers. My prediction is everyone will encourage you to retake if T14 is your goal.


That's absolutely false. There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.

I'm not saying OP has equally good softs but certainly softs CAN make up for numbers sometimes.


I find this very, very hard to believe unless the person is the child of an important politician or very, very rich parents. Where did you see this?


Nope. None of that. There are two alone from this cycle. I'm not disclosing more info because I don't want to identify friends but it DOES happen and I've seen it happen to several individuals in those scholarship communities.
Last edited by LawTweet on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby LawTweet » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:49 pm

icechicken wrote:
LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.


Most of these people have good grades but many are <3.8. This cycle alone I saw a 155 3.9 non-URM already get into two T-14s.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:00 pm

LawTweet wrote:
icechicken wrote:
LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.


Most of these people have good grades but many are <3.8. This cycle alone I saw a 155 3.9 non-URM already get into two T-14s.

But they have a 3.9, not a 3.6x.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby LawTweet » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:06 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
LawTweet wrote:
icechicken wrote:
LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.


Most of these people have good grades but many are <3.8. This cycle alone I saw a 155 3.9 non-URM already get into two T-14s.

But they have a 3.9, not a 3.6x.


Yet again, I'm not saying OP is getting in anywhere. I'm saying that softs can make up for an LSAT that otherwise would make an applicant ineligible.
Last edited by LawTweet on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:07 pm

LawTweet wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
LawTweet wrote:
icechicken wrote:
LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.


Most of these people have good grades but many are <3.8. This cycle alone I saw a 155 3.9 non-URM already get into two T-14s.

But they have a 3.9, not a 3.6x.


Yet again, I'm not saying OP is getting in anywhere. I'm saying that softs can make up for an LSAT that otherwise would make an applicant ineligible.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but I think primarily it's high GPA making up for the LSAT.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:21 pm

LawTweet wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
LawTweet wrote:
icechicken wrote:
LawTweet wrote:There are many Truman/Rhodes/Marshall's with mediocre to bad LSATs (150s) who get into T14s. And they're not URM.


Unless I'm mistaken, those three credentials all imply excellent grades in college. It's not that surprising that a 158/4.1 reverse-splitter can sneak into the T14 if they have the charisma and resume that also typically come along with one of those scholarships. But OP's GPA isn't close to that.


Most of these people have good grades but many are <3.8. This cycle alone I saw a 155 3.9 non-URM already get into two T-14s.

But they have a 3.9, not a 3.6x.


Yet again, I'm not saying OP is getting in anywhere. I'm saying that softs can make up for an LSAT that otherwise would make an applicant ineligible.


But you’re applying anecdotes to suggest whether someone should think it’s possible. That’s the entire problem. There are people who outperform their numbers for multiple reasons, and in that sense, a 150/3.8 might get in to a T14. And it’s possible a 3.6/165 might too based on the rest of their application.

What we strive for in offering advice here is to point to what is most likely, not what might happen. It maintains the integrity of the advice while also respectfully leaving room for difference of opinion or outperforming numbers. Nony was just pointing out that your anecdote is different than the OP, and so you should pause before suggesting they will be exception rather than the rule.

And still, what’s most important is you have no idea what got those people into a T14, or whether “softs” were the determinant. Obviously softs matter in every application, but you can’t definitively say the softs made the difference. Your only evidence is that the GPA was good enough, the LSAT wasn’t, but they got in. So it must’ve been the softs. Or they just really valued the GPA, thought they could lock that person down at sticker and/or helped a median, and the interesting softs about that person confirmed what they already wanted in admitting them.

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Re: 3.6x, 165, super softs, chance at a T14?

Postby jpm363 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:17 pm

Thank you for all of this by the way. FWIW I only labeled my softs "super softs" because I was trying to abide by that introductory flow chart as to whether I should start a new thread.

I had a feeling I should be more bearish about my chances, but hey, that's why you ask! I am also one of those rare birds that qualified for an LSAC fee waiver this year, so I wrote an application for each of the T-14 while I can as I don't know if I'm allowed to apply for a second one. So, we'll see who was the most correct!



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