3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Not sure where your numbers will get you? Dying to know where you stand? Come have your palms read by your fellow posters!
mdtojd1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:06 pm

3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby mdtojd1 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:13 pm

So I have a 3.5 GPA and I'm taking the December LSAT. Been scoring consistently between 176-180 on lsat practice tests 61-70. Let's say I get a 178 on the LSAT (I know its different on the real one vs the practices, but lets just go with this), what are my chances at Penn with early decision round 2?

I have work experience as a real estate agent.
I graduated with a 3.5 (LSAC GPA) with a degree in Cell/Molecular/Developmental Biology.

My family wanted me to go into medicine, so I went that direction. However, I always wanted to do law and finally got fed up and told my parents I didn't want to be a doctor.

I have good medical schools softs - working in mental health institutions, 100s of hours of scribing. I don't know how this could help me for law school specifically though.

I also have thousands of volunteer hours at non-medical places, including a community church where I've held multiple leadership positions.

I also have 3 LORs from professors who know me really well.

What do y'all think?

User avatar
Chaimthegreat
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:50 am

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Chaimthegreat » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:25 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:So I have a 3.5 GPA and I'm taking the December LSAT. Been scoring consistently between 176-180 on lsat practice tests 61-70. Let's say I get a 178 on the LSAT (I know its different on the real one vs the practices, but lets just go with this), what are my chances at Penn with early decision round 2?

I have work experience as a real estate agent.
I graduated with a 3.5 (LSAC GPA) with a degree in Cell/Molecular/Developmental Biology.

My family wanted me to go into medicine, so I went that direction. However, I always wanted to do law and finally got fed up and told my parents I didn't want to be a doctor.

I have good medical schools softs - working in mental health institutions, 100s of hours of scribing. I don't know how this could help me for law school specifically though.

I also have thousands of volunteer hours at non-medical places, including a community church where I've held multiple leadership positions.

I also have 3 LORs from professors who know me really well.

What do y'all think?


You are going to have fifty people tell you not to ED. You lose your ability to negotiate $$ and aid. They will tell you to blanket the T-13/T-14 and review your options then. Good luck on your lsat!

cavalier1138
Posts: 4630
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:36 am

Don't ED. Get an LSAT, then come back and get specific advice.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 15998
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Rigo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:46 pm

Is TLS especially ED crazy this cycle? Absolutely do not ED Penn.

Also, come back after you take the test. You should apply broadly if you get 170+

mcmand
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:45 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby mcmand » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:58 pm

Rigo wrote:Is TLS especially ED crazy this cycle?


Wondering the same. What is with the infatuation with it?

Hstrat
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:30 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Hstrat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:14 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:So I have a 3.5 GPA and I'm taking the December LSAT. Been scoring consistently between 176-180 on lsat practice tests 61-70. Let's say I get a 178 on the LSAT (I know its different on the real one vs the practices, but lets just go with this), what are my chances at Penn with early decision round 2?

I have work experience as a real estate agent.
I graduated with a 3.5 (LSAC GPA) with a degree in Cell/Molecular/Developmental Biology.

My family wanted me to go into medicine, so I went that direction. However, I always wanted to do law and finally got fed up and told my parents I didn't want to be a doctor.

I have good medical schools softs - working in mental health institutions, 100s of hours of scribing. I don't know how this could help me for law school specifically though.

I also have thousands of volunteer hours at non-medical places, including a community church where I've held multiple leadership positions.

I also have 3 LORs from professors who know me really well.

What do y'all think?


I'm a 3.5/177, and actually a former real estate agent as well. I've got an account on LSN that might be helpful to you - same username.

Personally, I would not recommend EDing to Penn, but if you did (and you get that 177+) you'd almost certainly get in. Based on my research, the only schools I'm unlikely to get into are Yale (0% Chance, IMHO), Stanford (same), Harvard (33%) and UChicago (50%). Every other school is almost certain to accept me unless they find a red flag in my app or decide to Yield Protect. If Penn's your top choice, apply to Columbia and use your admission to that school to get a better scholarship out of Penn.

Also, those softs are not going to let you outperform your numbers. They're pretty typical for a T14 law school applicant. The WE is better, but still probably not going to make a big impact.

mdtojd1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:06 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby mdtojd1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:44 pm

So I will most likely not take the December lsat. I have a family emergency and I just mentally cannot take this exam. I took a practice yesterday and today, scoring a 166 and 164, well below the high 170s I was getting earlier. I just don't feel like I'm in the right mental state to succeed on this exam like I know I can. Question for you guys:

What if I just take this LSAT in December anyway? I think I can still manage to get in the mid 160s. I know then Penn and such are out of reach, but could I send them apps and let them know I'm going to retake in Feb because of these issues? I could also send apps to Temple and Nova, which are pretty good for Philly BigLaw anyway.

Or should I just hold out until Feb and get back to my scores before? Would I still be able to get into at least Temple or Nova by that time? Would Penn (which accepts Feb scores) still be probable if I reach my old highs (176+)?

I would rather get in this year then have to hold out another.

Thanks for your advice.

User avatar
Mullens
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:34 am

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Mullens » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:49 pm

mcmand wrote:
Rigo wrote:Is TLS especially ED crazy this cycle?


Wondering the same. What is with the infatuation with it?


My guess is it’s due to how much of a role ED plays in undergrad admissions for elite schools now. Sounds like a very different landscape than it was ten years ago. When many applicants first approach the law school admissions process, they do so with a view tainted by their undergrad admissions knowledge. Hence the people who post about safety schools.

User avatar
Dcc617
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:57 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:So I will most likely not take the December lsat. I have a family emergency and I just mentally cannot take this exam. I took a practice yesterday and today, scoring a 166 and 164, well below the high 170s I was getting earlier. I just don't feel like I'm in the right mental state to succeed on this exam like I know I can. Question for you guys:

What if I just take this LSAT in December anyway? I think I can still manage to get in the mid 160s. I know then Penn and such are out of reach, but could I send them apps and let them know I'm going to retake in Feb because of these issues? I could also send apps to Temple and Nova, which are pretty good for Philly BigLaw anyway.

Or should I just hold out until Feb and get back to my scores before? Would I still be able to get into at least Temple or Nova by that time? Would Penn (which accepts Feb scores) still be probable if I reach my old highs (176+)?

I would rather get in this year then have to hold out another.

Thanks for your advice.


Sorry about your family situation, but definitely don’t rush law school. Your school will affect your employment prospects for a long time. Law school will always be there. Waiting may suck but definitely don’t settle.

mdtojd1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:06 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby mdtojd1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:01 pm

Thanks, I actually thought the same at first, but after talking to my pre-law advisor I was pretty surprised that Temple and Nova actually feed Philly BigLaw (which btw is my goal) more than Penn. Though I'm sure this is because most of the Penn grads end up in NYC or other markets even after being accepted to Philly BigLaw.

Based on my main goal, and as long as I'm a good student, I felt that Temple or Nova would help me get there as well. Obviously not as helpful as going to Penn, but still.

I prefer temple over nova.

da.goat
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby da.goat » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:11 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:Thanks, I actually thought the same at first, but after talking to my pre-law advisor I was pretty surprised that Temple and Nova actually feed Philly BigLaw (which btw is my goal) more than Penn. Though I'm sure this is because most of the Penn grads end up in NYC or other markets even after being accepted to Philly BigLaw.

Based on my main goal, and as long as I'm a good student, I felt that Temple or Nova would help me get there as well. Obviously not as helpful as going to Penn, but still.

I prefer temple over nova.

Philly biglaw is much, much more attainable from Penn than from those other schools. As long as you have a "why Philly" answer at OCI and are a normal human, you're golden for Philly biglaw. Temple, on the other hand, doesn't even let their students participate in OCI unless they get a certain GPA. That's an enormous gamble that you shouldn't risk a career on. The philly biglaw numbers will of course, as you mentioned, look higher for local schools because people who come to Penn usually come in with the goal of NY/DC/CA. For local schools, Philly is really their only option. As someone who waited and retook, it is definitely worth it.

User avatar
chargers21
Posts: 3652
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby chargers21 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:14 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:Thanks, I actually thought the same at first, but after talking to my pre-law advisor I was pretty surprised that Temple and Nova actually feed Philly BigLaw (which btw is my goal) more than Penn. Though I'm sure this is because most of the Penn grads end up in NYC or other markets even after being accepted to Philly BigLaw.

Based on my main goal, and as long as I'm a good student, I felt that Temple or Nova would help me get there as well. Obviously not as helpful as going to Penn, but still.

I prefer temple over nova.

First, pre-law advisors are generally wrong about most things. Second, neither temple nor nova have great biglaw numbers in general or in Philly. Penn alone, or likely any t13 with philly ties will be better for philly biglaw. You are capable of doing better, don't settle because of a bad stroke of luck in life lately.

Also, being a good student in law school isn't enough. Everyone else is busting their ass and you're graded on a curve and a lot of the grading ends up being arbitrary.

User avatar
Dcc617
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:16 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:Thanks, I actually thought the same at first, but after talking to my pre-law advisor I was pretty surprised that Temple and Nova actually feed Philly BigLaw (which btw is my goal) more than Penn. Though I'm sure this is because most of the Penn grads end up in NYC or other markets even after being accepted to Philly BigLaw.

Based on my main goal, and as long as I'm a good student, I felt that Temple or Nova would help me get there as well. Obviously not as helpful as going to Penn, but still.

I prefer temple over nova.


So LST shows Temple putting about 66% of its class into long term, full time legal work. 21% of the class got jobs with large firms.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/temple/jobs/

Now, it’s totally possible that you’ll end up with a good outcome from Temple. You may be in the fifth of the class that gets biglaw. However, it’s basically impossible to know that ahead of time. LSAT and GPA don’t really correlate with law school performance and law school grading can be super random. So it’s a ton of money to sink into a pretty big risk.

Especially given the unlimited LSAT retakes, there’s really no reason to settle for a lower score than you’re capable of. Basically the only things you can control are the amount of money you take out and the school you go to. Temple is not on the same level as a T14, at all.

User avatar
UVA2B
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby UVA2B » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 pm

mdtojd1 wrote:Thanks, I actually thought the same at first, but after talking to my pre-law advisor I was pretty surprised that Temple and Nova actually feed Philly BigLaw (which btw is my goal) more than Penn. Though I'm sure this is because most of the Penn grads end up in NYC or other markets even after being accepted to Philly BigLaw.

Based on my main goal, and as long as I'm a good student, I felt that Temple or Nova would help me get there as well. Obviously not as helpful as going to Penn, but still.

I prefer temple over nova.


I'm not sure if you're trying to just raise red flags up and down what you're posting, but you've hit on more than make me comfortable. Let's line them up:

1. Your work experience/medical school softs: You have experience as a real estate agent as well as work at a mental health institution, serious time as a scribe. How far removed are you from your degree? I just want to dispel that you're a K-JD or you have sufficient time to make this professional path make sense. And if you have time between your degree and your work, why are you talking to a pre-law advisor (more to come on this later)?

2. Switching from medicine to law due to family pressure: There isn't anything wrong with that, and it happens fairly regularly, but with every other thing you've posted, it just comes off as another point worth questioning.

3. Thousands of volunteer hours: Good for you, but see point 1 above for this to make sense.

4. ED problem: it's been discussed enough, but it's a horrible strategy and will cost you thousands of dollars.

5. Relying on a February exam to get into Penn, or alternatively, get into Temple or Nova: February scores aren't good for the current cycle in most cases, and certainly will mean a worse outcome than if you just waited to apply in the next cycle. If you're already removed enough to have all of your work and volunteer experience, waiting one more cycle won't hurt. If you're not ready to do your best on the LSAT in December, you owe it to yourself to wait until next cycle.

6. Temple/Nova feeds Philly Biglaw: Nope. A small portion of the class at either goes to Biglaw period, and with a forced curve you cannot and should not plan on being in that percentage. It's a financially poor decision, especially when you have LSAT potential to go to Penn on a tuition discount, where you can get Philly Biglaw from median if your resume is otherwise strong and you have ties to Philly.

7. Prelaw advisor: They are almost uniformly worthless, and in this case they've already proven their worthlessness. Don't go to Nova or Temple wanting Philly Biglaw unless you're perfectly comfortable with a much more modest Philly outcome and you're going to those schools for free. Your most likely outcome from those schools is a small firm or local government job that pays much less than a big firm. If you're not comfortable with that, don't go.

I hope you can straighten all of this out, because at best you're ill-informed, and at worst you're wantonly approaching the rest of your career by starting on the worst foot (or it's a troll attempt that is subtle enough to allay most here. I really hope this isn't it, but you've raised enough flags that I'm at least skeptical).

mdtojd1
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:06 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby mdtojd1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:27 pm

1.) I graduated in 2016 and had most of the medical school softs done by graduation (I did some of the scribe hours after graduation). I got my real estate license in 2014 and have done work sparingly (a few homes and rentals here and there, but mostly for family/friends).

2.) I didn’t switch from med to law because of family pressure. I said my family pressured me into med, but I wanted law and now I decided to follow what I really wanted to do.

3.) Again, done mostly before 2016. Though I still volunteer at the church occasionally because of the relationships I've made there.

4.) Not well informed on this, valued the admission over money. My parents saved for medical school and that would put a dent into law school tuition.

5.) Understood.

6.) Again, I spoke to the pre-law guy for the first time in September 2017. I went to him because, well, he was the pre-law advisor lol and I thought he was the best person to consult with.

7.) Understood.

I’m definitely ill-informed and will utilize this advice to make sure I get the most out of my career.

User avatar
Dcc617
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 pm

Make sure to check out https://www.lstreports.com/

cavalier1138
Posts: 4630
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: 3.5 GPA, scoring between 176-180 on LSAT PrepTests, taking the Dec LSAT.

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:47 am

mdtojd1 wrote:Again, I spoke to the pre-law guy for the first time in September 2017. I went to him because, well, he was the pre-law advisor lol and I thought he was the best person to consult with.


And now you know better. Stop consulting your pre-law advisor about anything. He isn't a lawyer; he didn't go to law school; he doesn't understand legal hiring; and he knows nothing about this process.

Don't rush this, and don't go to Temple or Villanova with the goal of biglaw.




Return to “What are my chances?”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests