T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

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T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Hi all,

I'm still hesitating whether and which school to apply. Just got the score of my September LSAT, which is 174.

I did undergrad overseas and had a 3.71 GPA(top 5% in my department, translated into an S according to LSAC). I am currently in a master's program in an ivy school. No full-time work experiences. Did 5 internships, mainly policy-related. Aiming for Harvard(YS so unpredictable), or at least CCN. Please chance me, thanks!!!

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:57 pm

You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:59 pm

UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:22 pm

UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Well, it is a little awkward to say but my parents are really wealthy. I am the only child, and they are more than happy to pay the tuition, which means little to them anyway. So I'll just aim for the best schools I can get into, basically not taking money into consideration.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:26 pm

Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Well, it is a little awkward to say but my parents are really wealthy. I am the only child, and they are more than happy to pay the tuition, which means little to them anyway. So I'll just aim for the best schools I can get into, basically not taking money into consideration.


But how are you deciding what "the best schools" mean? The arbitrary US news rankings? The Times Higher Education rankings? The above the law rankings? Employment outcomes?

The point being, its really silly to make a decision on "best school" between say NYU and Duke. Also, why make your parents pay more than necessary?

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:28 pm

Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Well, it is a little awkward to say but my parents are really wealthy. I am the only child, and they are more than happy to pay the tuition, which means little to them anyway. So I'll just aim for the best schools I can get into, basically not taking money into consideration.


What do you want for a career out of law school? People far too often set a certain law school as the "goal" when you should realistically be looking at this decision as a means to a professional end. It's great your parents can pull out a stack of cash and fork over $300k+ for Harvard (since you obviously won't be getting any need-based aid), but if your goals aren't super specific, like you want to work at a big private firm, you should ask them how much less another school would have to be if they both ended up with the same outcome. I'm assuming since they're rolling in cash that they're also at least somewhat financially savvy, and realistically paying for empty prestige in a profession is mostly what keeps Harvard's pockets lined. There are a few outcomes definitely more likely from Harvard than it would be from, say, Penn, but the median outcome from both is pretty much the same (if not exactly the same). When you also consider that you're most likely to be a median student at any of these schools, I would heavily consider what the median graduate does following graduation. Here's a hint: they aren't really any different.

I'm not saying you should convince your parents not to pay for that (mostly) empty prestige, but if your goals aren't well-defined or super specific where Harvard might do better, then you shouldn't unnecessarily limit your options.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:28 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:30 pm

Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:38 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:42 pm

Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.


I mean, go look at the stats yourself.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:45 pm

Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.


The only reasonable asterisk to put on the employment stats at LST would be that some firms are more receptive to H1B sponsorship than others, and those firms might dip lower in the class at Harvard than they would at Duke (and to be clear: the firm does hire at both Harvard and Duke, but just that you have more wiggle room in how high your grades would need to be at each respectively).

Paying extra for Harvard might be worth it in your specific case for you and your parents, but be very mindful of how much that nominal difference in room for error in 1L grades is for literally thousands of dollars.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:49 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.


I mean, go look at the stats yourself.


It's hard to find specific stats for international students, which I suspect would seem somewhat different than the overall pool. I talked to some lawyers before and heard that their firms just can't hire a whole bunch of international students in a year, because there is an arbitrary around-50% chance that the H1B visa application won't be successful and the new-hire would have to relocate to offices in other nations.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:53 pm

Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.


I mean, go look at the stats yourself.


It's hard to find specific stats for international students, which I suspect would seem somewhat different than the overall pool. I talked to some lawyers before and heard that their firms just can't hire a whole bunch of international students in a year, because there is an arbitrary around-50% chance that the H1B visa application won't be successful and the new-hire would have to relocate to offices in other nations.


Yeah, and that isn't going to change whether you are at Upenn or Harvard. The firms have a specific # of slots total. If that student comes from Upenn or Harvard, it doesn't matter. The name of the school doesn't make the difference here. Look at the biglaw employment numbers to get an idea of how many students at each school has a chance at biglaw. For example, at Duke, the chances are above 80%. At Georgetown, those numbers are 50%. You want to target the schools with the overall best chances at biglaw, because within those schools there are international kids that are getting those jobs. I hope that makes sense.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:54 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Agreed. For example, Duke has better employment stats than everyone but Columbia. The t6 is artificial. You might be able to get way more money at a Duke or UVA or Michigan than Chicago, yet have equal or better employment statistics (and better weather potentially). So apply to the whole t13 and see how it shakes out.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely apply to other T13s as well. Yet I'm not sure if the employment numbers would be as useful for a non-resident international student, and in general I would prefer larger cities to live in.


All the T13 place well in larger cities (mostly NYC, but all of them have national pull in the major cities).


Thanks for the advice! I just got the impression from a forum of my own country that the employment stats are still somewhat different between Harvard and, say, Duke. Not sure if stats would actually vary for international students, I'll look for more information these couple of days. I'll probably have to aim for a "big law" if I want to be a lawyer in the U.S. at all, since those are the firms that sponsor H1B visa.


The only reasonable asterisk to put on the employment stats at LST would be that some firms are more receptive to H1B sponsorship than others, and those firms might dip lower in the class at Harvard than they would at Duke (and to be clear: the firm does hire at both Harvard and Duke, but just that you have more wiggle room in how high your grades would need to be at each respectively).

Paying extra for Harvard might be worth it in your specific case for you and your parents, but be very mindful of how much that nominal difference in room for error in 1L grades is for literally thousands of dollars.


That is exactly what I'm thinking of. Thanks again for your replies! I'll probably apply for the entire T13 and think twice before I actually make a decision.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:19 pm

Yeah, and that isn't going to change whether you are at Upenn or Harvard. The firms have a specific # of slots total. If that student comes from Upenn or Harvard, it doesn't matter. The name of the school doesn't make the difference here. Look at the biglaw employment numbers to get an idea of how many students at each school has a chance at biglaw. For example, at Duke, the chances are above 80%. At Georgetown, those numbers are 50%. You want to target the schools with the overall best chances at biglaw, because within those schools there are international kids that are getting those jobs. I hope that makes sense.


Sure thanks! Another thing is the stats can't tell me everything. For example, fewer students go to biglaw from Yale, but that is because more students go for clerkship and public interest. So I can't really know the "chance" per se from the stats. That is why I'm also looking at information of students from my country, who actually aims for private law firms, and who has similar background as I do.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby sparkytrainer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:23 pm

Lxwind wrote:
Yeah, and that isn't going to change whether you are at Upenn or Harvard. The firms have a specific # of slots total. If that student comes from Upenn or Harvard, it doesn't matter. The name of the school doesn't make the difference here. Look at the biglaw employment numbers to get an idea of how many students at each school has a chance at biglaw. For example, at Duke, the chances are above 80%. At Georgetown, those numbers are 50%. You want to target the schools with the overall best chances at biglaw, because within those schools there are international kids that are getting those jobs. I hope that makes sense.


Sure thanks! Another thing is the stats can't tell me everything. For example, fewer students go to biglaw from Yale, but that is because more students go for clerkship and public interest. So I can't really know the "chance" per se from the stats. That is why I'm also looking at information of students from my country, who actually aims for private law firms, and who has similar background as I do.


But you can make extrapolations about the clerkship stuff. If you got a federal clerkship, chances are you could have gotten biglaw. In fact, many (if not 99%) of those with clerkships right out of school were hired as summer associates at biglaw firms. That is why when people on this site talk about employment outcome, it is usually the biglaw number added with the clerkship number.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:26 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
Yeah, and that isn't going to change whether you are at Upenn or Harvard. The firms have a specific # of slots total. If that student comes from Upenn or Harvard, it doesn't matter. The name of the school doesn't make the difference here. Look at the biglaw employment numbers to get an idea of how many students at each school has a chance at biglaw. For example, at Duke, the chances are above 80%. At Georgetown, those numbers are 50%. You want to target the schools with the overall best chances at biglaw, because within those schools there are international kids that are getting those jobs. I hope that makes sense.


Sure thanks! Another thing is the stats can't tell me everything. For example, fewer students go to biglaw from Yale, but that is because more students go for clerkship and public interest. So I can't really know the "chance" per se from the stats. That is why I'm also looking at information of students from my country, who actually aims for private law firms, and who has similar background as I do.


But you can make extrapolations about the clerkship stuff. If you got a federal clerkship, chances are you could have gotten biglaw. In fact, many (if not 99%) of those with clerkships right out of school were hired as summer associates at biglaw firms. That is why when people on this site talk about employment outcome, it is usually the biglaw number added with the clerkship number.


Oh I didn't notice that before! Thanks!

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 pm

UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Also I am not 100% sure about law school yet. So I may want to look for a job and work for at least a year and then apply next cycle if I still want to apply. I wonder if you would suggest a retake? This is my first take and I did not really spend much time studying at all...I feel like I have a good chance to improve a couple of points.. though I am not sure if that's necessary at all. Thanks!

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Hand » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:34 am

If money is no issue, just go to the highest ranked school that accepts you (although I'd take into account the number of foreign students at that school; this information is available in the international applicant threads here). FWIW an S evaluation and a 175 plus a graduate degree got me into all of CCN but none of HYS a few years ago.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby UVA2B » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:36 am

Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Also I am not 100% sure about law school yet. So I may want to look for a job and work for at least a year and then apply next cycle if I still want to apply. I wonder if you would suggest a retake? This is my first take and I did not really spend much time studying at all...I feel like I have a good chance to improve a couple of points.. though I am not sure if that's necessary at all. Thanks!


A retake is unlikely to do much for you, but if you're not set on law school, I'd absolutely recommend taking a year or two to work and figure out if law school is really for you. It's cliche, but law schools aren't going anywhere. Go once you're convinced a legal career is what you want.

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Re: T6 Chances? (International S GPA, 174 LSAT)

Postby Lxwind » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:18 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Lxwind wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You have a decent shot at CCN and probably H, but why are you limiting to those schools? They are great options, but unless you're independently wealthy, you should apply to the entire T13.


Also I am not 100% sure about law school yet. So I may want to look for a job and work for at least a year and then apply next cycle if I still want to apply. I wonder if you would suggest a retake? This is my first take and I did not really spend much time studying at all...I feel like I have a good chance to improve a couple of points.. though I am not sure if that's necessary at all. Thanks!


A retake is unlikely to do much for you, but if you're not set on law school, I'd absolutely recommend taking a year or two to work and figure out if law school is really for you. It's cliche, but law schools aren't going anywhere. Go once you're convinced a legal career is what you want.


Thanks!



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