Splitter

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Sploshy
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Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:31 pm

I created a thread a while back, but some things have changed. Unbeknownst to me LSAC took some of my vocational coursework into my gpa calculation and I'm in a bit of a pickle. My lsac cumulative gpa was calculated at a 2.76, but my lsac degree gpa was calculated at a 3.82. I've written an addendum explaining how I was a clumsy and thoughtless child when I started college, but that I've grown and become an adult. I know that most schools don't use the degree gpa in their index calculation, but do you think that it could help me be considered at some schools which I would normally be an auto decline? I don't have my official LSAT score yet because I took it 6/12/17 and I'm waiting on that score. I had been consistently scoring between 177-180 on all of my PT's the month before the exam (I took 30 of them in that time frame and they all fell within that score range). Assuming I end up with an LSAT within that score range (177-180) what schools could I hope to get accepted into.

Overview-
LSAC cumulative GPA- 2.76
LSAC degree GPA- 3.82
projected LSAT score- 177-180

Addendum explaining my late blooming adulthood


Any advice in maximizing my chances would be appreciated. When should I apply? I can get my LSAC cumulative gpa up to a 3.01, but that would take the entire year and I can't apply for 2018 in the summer obviously. I figure I should mention what my LSAC gpa could be at graduation and keep sending them updates as the grades come in. Is it more important to apply early or to just hold off? I've seen a lot of statistical analysis about the increased chances of acceptance for early applicants, but I'm not sure if that would apply to me given my circumstances.

I'm not particularly attached to any school, but there are a few schools that I don't want to go to at all. Mainly want to stay in Texas or go to a Northeast school; possibly LA or Chicago as well. (no michigan, duke, etc.)
Last edited by Sploshy on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Splitter

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:39 pm

You don't have an LSAT yet, but assuming you get the score you're hoping for:

I'd highly recommend waiting a cycle. There's a world of difference between a 3.1 and a 2.76 (although I have to admit that I don't know how it would be possible to raise your GPA that much in the space of a year). And taking some time to actually live/work in the world after undergrad is always a good thing.

The other big piece of advice is that you can't afford to be picky with that GPA. If you lucked out and got in to Michigan or Duke (not a guarantee, even with an absurdly high LSAT), you should go. Crossing T13 schools off in advance because you don't think you'd enjoy the region/school is a dumb idea at this stage. You need to apply extremely broadly to give yourself a fighting chance at having decent options.

Sploshy
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Re: Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:44 pm

sorry, I didn't remember correctly its a 3.01 not a 3.1 fixed it in the op.

So then you don't think they would care about the 3.82 at all? Also is there a reason not to apply now and see what I get? why would I just hold off and not even try this cycle?

I'm not exactly trying to be as elite as possible either. I'd be fine going to SMU or Texas or UCLA or USC over Duke/Michigan I just don't see myself living in those areas for 3 years and making relationships in areas of the country that I would plan on never coming back to. Feel free to persuade me otherwise, but that is just the current stance that I have.

cavalier1138
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Re: Splitter

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Sploshy wrote:sorry, I didn't remember correctly its a 3.01 not a 3.1 fixed it in the op.

So then you don't think they would care about the 3.82 at all? Also is there a reason not to apply now and see what I get? why would I just hold off and not even try this cycle?

I'm not exactly trying to be as elite as possible either. I'd be fine going to SMU or Texas or UCLA or USC over Duke/Michigan I just don't see myself living in those areas for 3 years and making relationships in areas of the country that I would plan on never coming back to. Feel free to persuade me otherwise, but that is just the current stance that I have.


No, no one cares about your major GPA. And it's better to apply the first time with your better GPA rather than waste money applying with the lower GPA you have right now.

In terms of regional stuff, you really need to look into legal hiring and placement from different school tiers. If you ultimately want to work in Texas, UT is your best shot. But going to SMU over Duke would be insane, especially if you want to have a chance at working outside of Texas. If you want NYC biglaw, for example, Duke is a fantastic choice, even if you don't want to "make relationships" in North Carolina (where you will likely never have to work).

AJordan
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Re: Splitter

Postby AJordan » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:11 pm

I'm in a similar situation though I have my >75s LSAT score already and a bit of a higher GPA. Yes they will care about the 3.86 exactly to the point where they will bump you to the top of the pile where all the other 2.8 GPAs are sitting. You may get half a dozen WLs in the T13, none of which, at your status, would've been likely to come thru this cycle.

Your only real shots at T13 are UVA and Northwestern but you sound like K-JD so even N'Western may be difficult. UCLA seems to have a pretty hard GPA floor at 3.0. The only guy accepted on LSN this year below 3.0 has a pretty compelling story (veteran, pilot, lots of research and advanced education, etc.) I think your dual GPA and K/JD is going to hurt you a lot. I wouldn't wager on you getting in to any school in the T13. First likely acceptance I would guess is WashU STL. People like us just kind of have to roll the dice and hope schools need an LSAT score. It goes without saying that the rest of your app needs to be flawless. Consulting should be a strong consideration.

AJordan
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Re: Splitter

Postby AJordan » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:14 pm

Eh, I might be too pessimistic about UT for you. You should def apply there if you have a 170+ LSAT.

Sploshy
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Re: Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:26 pm

I'm not sure why I come off as kjd especially since I spoke about some vocational courses and how I've matured since starting college, but I'm 24 and I've worked as a cook for a small amount of time in a country club near the dallas area.

Thanks for the advice so far. More opinions would be appreciated.

cavalier1138
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Re: Splitter

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Sploshy wrote:I'm not sure why I come off as kjd especially since I spoke about some vocational courses and how I've matured since starting college, but I'm 24 and I've worked as a cook for a small amount of time in a country club near the dallas area.

Thanks for the advice so far. More opinions would be appreciated.


You came off as a K-JD because you referenced still being in school. Just to clarify, you don't already have a bachelor's degree, right?

Sploshy
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Re: Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:34 pm

Correct. I took a much different path: culinary school.

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UVA2B
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Re: Splitter

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:38 pm

If you can pull your GPA up to a 3.01, you should wait and reapply the following cycle when you have that GPA in hand. 3.0 can be a pretty big watershed GPA for some of the schools you're targeting. So if you apply on day one of the next cycle with a 3.01, that will be far superior to applying this cycle with a 2.76+your projections of what you think your GPA will be when you graduate. You need to be realistic that while your major GPA is pretty solid, they're reporting your cumulative GPA. And while you might have reasons for that poor GPA, those reasons are frankly pretty weak and wouldn't give the average admissions officer a great feeling about it (you're effectively saying you were an immature child when you started, and even if that's true, it doesn't change the fact that you weren't able to identify what you were doing wrong and fix it. Immaturity is one of the weakest excuses for a low GPA out there).

If you indeed get a 177-180, you've successfully done everything you can do to maximize your chances of admissions at any given school (provided you consider the above discussion on having a 3.01 vs. a 2.76 and assurances your GPA will be 3.01 when you graduate). But your cycle is still going to be a crapshoot, and you should not be picky based on really immature reasons like living in an area you don't think you'd like for three years where you'll never have to put down roots. Michigan is probably one of your better options with a 3.01/177, and you'd be foolish to not apply there because you don't think you'd like the cold weather or college town or whatever contrived reason you'd imagine not liking about it.

This is a professional school where you're trying to maximize your chances of a good professional outcome. Don't hamstring yourself by not applying to really good options for your career based on subjective and superficial reasons. You'll want every good option on the table when you make this decision, because there is no reasonable way for anyone here to divine how your application cycle is going to go.

Alive97
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Re: Splitter

Postby Alive97 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:46 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: Splitter

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:49 pm

Alive97 wrote:The notion that geographic preference for school should be discounted as "extremely dumb", "immature" and "superficial" is highly flawed.


The notion that a potential splitter can afford to not even consider a school like Michigan because of some dumb hangup about "culture" or the weather is patently ridiculous.

Geographic preference is an important factor if it has an effect on your future career (e.g. only want to work in Texas), or if all other aspects of your school options are essentially equal.

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UVA2B
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Re: Splitter

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:53 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Alive97 wrote:The notion that geographic preference for school should be discounted as "extremely dumb", "immature" and "superficial" is highly flawed.


The notion that a potential splitter can afford to not even consider a school like Michigan because of some dumb hangup about "culture" or the weather is patently ridiculous.

Geographic preference is an important factor if it has an effect on your future career (e.g. only want to work in Texas), or if all other aspects of your school options are essentially equal.


Yup.

Sploshy
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Re: Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:01 pm

While I appreciate the helpful advice, I don't really understand why your methods of persuasion hinge on attacking my intelligence. I now understand that Duke/Michigan are some of my better options and it would be misguided to eliminate them for the reasons that I have, but I'm not sure why I needed to be belittled for you all to get that point across... I don't see how this argumentation would really persuade anyone with a modicum of pride but luckily for me I have very little of that.

Still not sure if I shouldn't at least apply to Texas this cycle. Any reason not to?

Also I'd like to submit that I understand immaturity isn't a good reason, but it is the truthful reason. I got a semester of F's my first semester and I've been working that off ever since I came back from culinary school. I didn't know that you could drop out and get all W's either from stupidity or carelessness you take your pick. (I think I may know which one you will pick though)

Also just because you've attributed my unwillingness to go to Michigan/Duke as a culture/weather problem doesn't make that the case. I am more worried about their proximity to family/friends and the reputation that they have in Texas because that is a serious consideration that I want to keep open. After your attack on my intellect I'm going to assume that they are fine for Texas otherwise I honestly have no reason why I deserved that.

Thanks Alive for the support. Like I said I think what they have said makes sense, but it was just framed in a very bad way.
Last edited by Sploshy on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Alive97
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Re: Splitter

Postby Alive97 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:02 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UVA2B
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Re: Splitter

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:28 pm

Sploshy wrote:While I appreciate the helpful advice, I don't really understand why your methods of persuasion hinge on attacking my intelligence. I now understand that Duke/Michigan are some of my better options and it would be misguided to eliminate them for the reasons that I have, but I'm not sure why I needed to be belittled for you all to get that point across... I don't see how this argumentation would really persuade anyone with a modicum of pride but luckily for me I have very little of that.

Still not sure if I shouldn't at least apply to Texas this cycle. Any reason not to?

Also I'd like to submit that I understand immaturity isn't a good reason, but it is the truthful reason. I got a semester of F's my first semester and I've been working that off ever since I came back from culinary school. I didn't know that you could drop out and get all W's either from stupidity or carelessness you take your pick. (I think I may know which one you will pick though)

Also just because you've attributed my unwillingness to go to Michigan/Duke as a culture/weather problem doesn't make that the case. I am more worried about their proximity to family/friends and the reputation that they have in Texas because that is a serious consideration that I want to keep open. After your attack on my intellect I'm going to assume that they are fine for Texas otherwise I honestly have no reason why I deserved that.

Thanks Alive for the support. Like I said I think what they have said makes sense, but it was just framed in a very bad way.


My apologies if you felt that was an assault on your intelligence or your maturity. I never meant to convey that you are currently lacking intelligence or that you're immature, but the types of decisions you're considering making would be dumb or immature. I hope you can appreciate the distinction there and why I was trying to convey that it would be dumb or immature without much better reasons to not apply to, say Michigan, but applying to Cornell or Penn would be ok. These are peer institutions and you should take a lottery ticket at all of them since you're in the unenviable position of not being able to rely on just your numbers to get in to any of them. And while I do appreciate that your reasons might have been substantively different than those I listed, I meant that list to be illustrative of the types of reasons that would be immature. If you had really good reasons where going to Michigan would make much less sense than going to UT like being near ill parents or something like that, you'd be thinking perfectly logically and no one would question that. But you seemed to be selectively geographically limited, which absent better amplifying information, wouldn't have made a modicum of sense otherwise.

Michigan and Duke are both good options for ending up in Texas, but the overarching message was more that you want as many options on the table in making this decision as you can possibly get. The chances are decent you'll never have to worry about Michigan vs. SMU for cheap as your only options, but even if you did, wouldn't you rather have to make the decision of Michigan vs. SMU for cheap? Your entire goal in approaching law school applications should be option maximization. If you want to end up in Texas, you should blanket the T13, plus UT, SMU/UH, and any other regional where you could see yourself practicing. Once you have all of those options on the table, and you've nailed down how expensive they're going to be, then you'll be able to make sense of what your best option would be.

You could go ahead and apply to UT if you wanted to this cycle, and I don't think it would particularly affect your chances if it didn't work out and you reapplied with a 3.01 next cycle. But just realize how big of a difference that arbitrary difference between 2.76 and 3.01 can be in some admissions officers minds. If you appreciate that the difference there can be huge, you can understand why applying with a 3.01 on the first try could be more impactful than applying with a 2.76, getting rejected/WL, only to reapply again with a 3.01. Being a reapplicant might not make the difference at a given school, but some schools may see the GPA increase and reject you/WL you again because you're a reapplicant. No one here can tell you that it will or won't happen, but just realize that's a risk you're taking if you don't solidify that 3.01 before applying.

I'm sorry if I came off harsh initially. I didn't mean to be overly critical of your plan, but just wanted to state it as plainly as I could that applying broadly and excluding any potential options would be a truly unfortunate mistake in applying.

Sploshy
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Re: Splitter

Postby Sploshy » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:34 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll have to whip out some cash for all these applications. Feels bad to have to wait a year especially since I'm 24, but if it makes my chances that much better then I guess it's worth it.

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UVA2B
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Re: Splitter

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:38 pm

Sploshy wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll have to whip out some cash for all these applications. Feels bad to have to wait a year especially since I'm 24, but if it makes my chances that much better then I guess it's worth it.


If it helps, with a 177+, you're probably looking at a bunch of fee waivers, so it won't be quite AS expensive.

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guynourmin
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Re: Splitter

Postby guynourmin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:42 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Sploshy wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'll have to whip out some cash for all these applications. Feels bad to have to wait a year especially since I'm 24, but if it makes my chances that much better then I guess it's worth it.


If it helps, with a 177+, you're probably looking at a bunch of fee waivers, so it won't be quite AS expensive.

+1. I had a below 25th gpa and a lower LSAT and received fee waivers everywhere except hys, cornell, and gulc, and then cornell offered me one like 2 months later.

cavalier1138
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Re: Splitter

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:56 pm

Alive97 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Alive97 wrote:The notion that geographic preference for school should be discounted as "extremely dumb", "immature" and "superficial" is highly flawed.


The notion that a potential splitter can afford to not even consider a school like Michigan because of some dumb hangup about "culture" or the weather is patently ridiculous.

Geographic preference is an important factor if it has an effect on your future career (e.g. only want to work in Texas), or if all other aspects of your school options are essentially equal.


Again using "dumb" and "patently ridiculous" you're not taking into account someone's life. The abstract instruction to maximize his professional opportunities does not necessarily supersede his own considerations regarding satisfactory (and still great) opportunities and his life.


Just to clarify this point: I can always phrase it more nicely. It doesn't make the decisions (not to be confused with the person making them) any less dumb. And your instructions are even more abstract. Should location always play a role? What if I decide that I don't want to apply to NYU because I don't like the city, but my career goals are to work in high-level public interest law with organizations headquartered in NYC? What if I'm choosing between going to Duke or Georgetown for NYC biglaw, and I don't like living south of the Mason-Dixon Line?

Alive97
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Re: Splitter

Postby Alive97 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:58 pm

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