177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

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theventriloquist
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177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:34 am

Hi: I am interested in Harvard/U Penn/Stanford Jd/MBA program.

Do I have shot?

2.9 undergrad
3.4 biology grad (rigrious grad program w/ medical school classes graded on medical school curve)
177 LSAT
GMAT: Not taken, but will take, very high scores in practice exams (I do well on standarized tests, good GRE also)
URM

Essay: I have lab experience. I will write about my experience w/ cancer and how that has motivated me to pursue biology research. However, I found that biology research is very unproductive so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.

Do i have good chance at the top JD/MBA programs? Thank you all!

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:40 am

Also, some people will say: Why JD/MBA

Because:

I looked at JD/MBA grads from top programs in Linkin. And what I find is, they are all (100%) successful. Everyone I looked at had good job in BigLaw or investment banking or hedge fund/private equity. Now if i look at MBA or JD alone, a number don't have good jobs, but out of the JD/MBA, 100% are successful. so it seems like a good bet for me.

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UVA2B
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:44 am

You need to stop asking about your chances in every available thread. You're unlikely to get into any of those JD/MBA programs, and your goals and mindset in approaching your future career are painfully misguided. Stop chasing prestige and figure out exactly the job you want, and then figure out the best way to get it. If you want investment banking or consulting, find a way to break into those businesses as an analyst, then go get an MBA after you've built up that experience. Business schools are less sensitive to grades, even though yours is still really low for M7 MBAs. As it is, you're taking all the wrong steps to get the career you want (if indeed you want that career and aren't just chasing mindless prestige that will never materialize).

cavalier1138
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:45 am

theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:47 am

I would not put all my eggs in those baskets. I cannot speak to those MBA programs, but I imagine they will not be auto-admits, even if you get into their JD program.

As far as those law schools- you have a shot, but its wildly unpredictable. You have a great lsat, but your GPA (only your undergrad GPA matters) sucks. Also, grad gpas don't matter except that yours might actually hurt you. Im sure you heard this in your other thread, but whether or not you took med school classes, your grad gpa does not scream success. Paired with your undergrad gpa, the overall picture of your in-class ability isn't great. In this case, that might actually hurt you more than just your straight bad undergrad gpa.

I mean apply, you have a shot, but I would be willing to bet you will probably not get into Harvard/Stanford, and likely not their MBA programs. Usually those programs require 4-5+ years of high level business experience and their median student age is around 28. You don't fit that picture, so I would be confident you wont get into their MBA programs.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:50 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:51 am

theventriloquist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.


I mean there isn't much to think about with the MBA. You wont get into those programs. Usually a pre-req for applications at those schools is some minimum amount of work experience in business- I belief at Fuqua its 3 or 4 years minimum to even just apply

Edit:

Just googled HBS. http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/class ... fault.aspx

Every student had pre-MBA industry experience, and the median student age entering the class is 27.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:56 am

grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.


I mean there isn't much to think about with the MBA. You wont get into those programs. Usually a pre-req for applications at those schools is some minimum amount of work experience in business- I belief at Fuqua its 3 or 4 years minimum to even just apply


Well the only way I can get in is through the law school, which is why I was thinking of doing a JD, and then getting into the MBA through that.

But everyone says: JD/MBA is bad. So I'm not going to do it.

But then everyone says: You can't get into a MBA. So I can't do that.

So what the fuck should I do? Law alone? And then give up my goal of investment banking?

Now in college, I did good on every subject besides biology, which I don't like. I mean, I'll write a BS essay to get in, but I don't want that.

So again, its all, "not this, not that"

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:57 am

UVA2B wrote:You need to stop asking about your chances in every available thread. You're unlikely to get into any of those JD/MBA programs, and your goals and mindset in approaching your future career are painfully misguided. Stop chasing prestige and figure out exactly the job you want, and then figure out the best way to get it. If you want investment banking or consulting, find a way to break into those businesses as an analyst, then go get an MBA after you've built up that experience. Business schools are less sensitive to grades, even though yours is still really low for M7 MBAs. As it is, you're taking all the wrong steps to get the career you want (if indeed you want that career and aren't just chasing mindless prestige that will never materialize).


Its easier said than done. How do I go from being a lab worker to analyst? I have submitted hundreds of applications, you can't just "break in" like that. I guess, a low ranked MBA to break in, but that is a huge gamble.

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:59 am

theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.


I mean there isn't much to think about with the MBA. You wont get into those programs. Usually a pre-req for applications at those schools is some minimum amount of work experience in business- I belief at Fuqua its 3 or 4 years minimum to even just apply


Well the only way I can get in is through the law school, which is why I was thinking of doing a JD, and then getting into the MBA through that.

But everyone says: JD/MBA is bad. So I'm not going to do it.

But then everyone says: You can't get into a MBA. So I can't do that.

So what the fuck should I do? Law alone? And then give up my goal of investment banking?

Now in college, I did good on every subject besides biology, which I don't like. I mean, I'll write a BS essay to get in, but I don't want that.

So again, its all, "not this, not that"


Go actually be an I-banker. Go work as an analyst at Goldman or wherever. You have no interest in law, so law is out. You don't have the qualifications for MBA, so thats out. Why don't you go get work experience and actually figure out what the hell you want to do!

Just go get a job as a financial analyst, work for a few years, then reassess. Stop just spamming whatever ideas come to your head that you have no experience in. GO GET THAT EXPERIENCE.

Edit: you asked about experience. Talk to your schools alumni, go pay for lunch with some investment bankers, do whatever you have to do to hustle. Getting either of these degrees isn't going to help you break through if you can't break through now.

Double edit: if you want to be an I-banker, WHY EVEN LAW SCHOOL? Getting into a JD program and then magically getting into the MBA program is not easy and a very likely way for you to end sorely disappointed.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:03 pm

grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.


I mean there isn't much to think about with the MBA. You wont get into those programs. Usually a pre-req for applications at those schools is some minimum amount of work experience in business- I belief at Fuqua its 3 or 4 years minimum to even just apply


Well the only way I can get in is through the law school, which is why I was thinking of doing a JD, and then getting into the MBA through that.

But everyone says: JD/MBA is bad. So I'm not going to do it.

But then everyone says: You can't get into a MBA. So I can't do that.

So what the fuck should I do? Law alone? And then give up my goal of investment banking?

Now in college, I did good on every subject besides biology, which I don't like. I mean, I'll write a BS essay to get in, but I don't want that.

So again, its all, "not this, not that"


Go actually be an I-banker. Go work as an analyst at Goldman or wherever. You have no interest in law, so law is out. You don't have the qualifications for MBA, so thats out. Why don't you go get work experience and actually figure out what the hell you want to do!

Just go get a job as a financial analyst, work for a few years, then reassess. Stop just spamming whatever ideas come to your head that you have no experience in. GO GET THAT EXPERIENCE.

Edit: you asked about experience. Talk to your schools alumni, go pay for lunch with some investment bankers, do whatever you have to do to hustle. Getting either of these degrees isn't going to help you break through if you can't break through now.


Are u like 100% sure that a JD won't help me break in? I mean, I asked people in colsulting and IB, and they said, a top JD would help me. So you are 100% sure right? Thank you. I mean, if you are like 100% sure, then I guess I try cold calling people and see what comes of that.

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:05 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:...so I want to pursue JD/MBA to work in pharma and work to make bio research more productive. Having jd and MBA will help a lot in pharmaticul management, where law is improtant.


Don't. Get. A. Law. Degree.

You've already been told that your cycle is likely to be unpredictable in your first thread. In your (well, someone else's, but you got a lot of feedback there) second thread, you were repeatedly told that an JD/MBA is not useful if you want to go into a pure business field. And now you've switched from wanting to do investment banking to wanting to work in pharmaceuticals.

Don't put yourself through law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. You have never once mentioned a career goal in the law. Just don't do it.


ok thank you. I guess I will think about MBA. You are 100% sure though right? Ok thank you though. To be honest, I have no clue hhow these industries work like. Thank you for your advice.


I mean there isn't much to think about with the MBA. You wont get into those programs. Usually a pre-req for applications at those schools is some minimum amount of work experience in business- I belief at Fuqua its 3 or 4 years minimum to even just apply


Well the only way I can get in is through the law school, which is why I was thinking of doing a JD, and then getting into the MBA through that.

But everyone says: JD/MBA is bad. So I'm not going to do it.

But then everyone says: You can't get into a MBA. So I can't do that.

So what the fuck should I do? Law alone? And then give up my goal of investment banking?

Now in college, I did good on every subject besides biology, which I don't like. I mean, I'll write a BS essay to get in, but I don't want that.

So again, its all, "not this, not that"


Go actually be an I-banker. Go work as an analyst at Goldman or wherever. You have no interest in law, so law is out. You don't have the qualifications for MBA, so thats out. Why don't you go get work experience and actually figure out what the hell you want to do!

Just go get a job as a financial analyst, work for a few years, then reassess. Stop just spamming whatever ideas come to your head that you have no experience in. GO GET THAT EXPERIENCE.

Edit: you asked about experience. Talk to your schools alumni, go pay for lunch with some investment bankers, do whatever you have to do to hustle. Getting either of these degrees isn't going to help you break through if you can't break through now.


Are u like 100% sure that a JD won't help me break in? I mean, I asked people in colsulting and IB, and they said, a top JD would help me. So you are 100% sure right? Thank you. I mean, if you are like 100% sure, then I guess I try cold calling people and see what comes of that.


Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.

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UVA2B
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:08 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
UVA2B wrote:You need to stop asking about your chances in every available thread. You're unlikely to get into any of those JD/MBA programs, and your goals and mindset in approaching your future career are painfully misguided. Stop chasing prestige and figure out exactly the job you want, and then figure out the best way to get it. If you want investment banking or consulting, find a way to break into those businesses as an analyst, then go get an MBA after you've built up that experience. Business schools are less sensitive to grades, even though yours is still really low for M7 MBAs. As it is, you're taking all the wrong steps to get the career you want (if indeed you want that career and aren't just chasing mindless prestige that will never materialize).


Its easier said than done. How do I go from being a lab worker to analyst? I have submitted hundreds of applications, you can't just "break in" like that. I guess, a low ranked MBA to break in, but that is a huge gamble.


Have you fully explored opportunities geographically? You're on an uphill battle because of that GPA and non-relevant degree, so maybe expanding the locations you're applying to could help. Despite what you might be thinking, you need relevant experience, not necessarily prestigious experience. So while Goldman people litter the M7 programs, working for a smaller investment firm somewhere other than NYC might do the trick and help you break into the M7. I provide no guarantee of this working, but also remember that getting into a law school doesn't automatically get you into the MBA program as well. I have friends in my law school class get WL from the business school because they lacked work experience.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:51 pm

grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:53 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.


Go do whatever you want dude. You don't want our advice. Live your life

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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby heythatslife » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:56 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.

Because of sample bias. The folks at WSO have only seen the JDs who have made it into IB/consulting, and do not know all those who failed, were deterred from trying, or never even had the opportunity. Also, the JDs who end up in IB/consulting tend already to have the kind of pre-LS experience and skills that have would have made them viable candidates for those jobs with an MBA anyway.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:01 pm

grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.


Go do whatever you want dude. You don't want our advice. Live your life


I'm taking all your advice. I appreceate it a lot, thank you. For example, I'm not thinking of a JD/MBA anymore.

I know what I want in life but I don't know how to get their.

theventriloquist
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby theventriloquist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:05 pm

heythatslife wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.

Because of sample bias. The folks at WSO have only seen the JDs who have made it into IB/consulting, and do not know all those who failed, were deterred from trying, or never even had the opportunity. Also, the JDs who end up in IB/consulting tend already to have the kind of pre-LS experience and skills that have would have made them viable candidates for those jobs with an MBA anyway.


Oh yeah, that's a good point. MBA is so expensive however. Damn I have to think about all this, thank you to everyone

grades??
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:06 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Yes I am 100% sure. Go be an analyst, live your dream, then reassess. Especially if you are an URM that can speak spanish, I am sure there are jobs in I-banking out there you can get. Just hustle and let go of this silly law school idea.


But howcome on Wall street oasis everyone is telling me, a top JD will help me break into IB/consulting. I mean, it won't be easy but it will hlep me break into. i don't mind working in big law as well. I mean, on wall streey oasis these are people in the consulting, IB insudtry telling me this.

You just can't get into the IB industry by talking to random bankers. it dosen't work like that. Are you really in this industry? It dosen't work like this. I talked to people who are in the industry.


Go do whatever you want dude. You don't want our advice. Live your life


I'm taking all your advice. I appreceate it a lot, thank you. For example, I'm not thinking of a JD/MBA anymore.

I know what I want in life but I don't know how to get their.


1- your english is really rough. You are gonna struggle in a JD program.

2- GO actually do I-banking. Stop pretending that its too hard. Even with a top jd, unless you already have the experience, you wont get I-banking. Might as well get that experience now.

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heythatslife
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Re: 177, 2.9 AA/Hispanic JD/MBA program?

Postby heythatslife » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:23 pm

Hey man, if you really wanna end up in IB, not all is lost. You won't be able to make IB immediately, but the idea is to gradually inch toward it. As UVA2B said, go find a finance-related job somewhere doing something, and hack it for a few years. It doesn't have to be a fancy Goldman or bulge bracket bank position. Or actually, just get a job. My SO is doing an MBA, and I've been surprised by how many of her friends had prior jobs that had nothing to do with finance. If you want, perhaps doing a CFA might help jump-start your finance career, if you have no other relevant experience on your resume. Then with a high GMAT score (you seem like a good test taker) and polished personal statements, you can get into some decent MBA programs. Hopefully you'll have accrued some savings by then to help pay for that MBA.

Doing JD => biglaw => MBA in this order could potentially get you to where you want to be, but it's circuitous and extremely expensive with chance of failure at each stage, and that's why everyone's telling you not to do it.




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