175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

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InTheInterstice
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby InTheInterstice » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:15 pm

aaronbursar wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: I'm only applying to HYS (and maybe Columbia—do they offer merit aid?) at this time, primarily because I feel that the associated cost of attending any law school is so high that I should only attend if it's my dream school


They do offer merit aid. With your background I would have my eyes set on a Hamilton from Columbia, which would ameliorate any worries about tuition.


Noted, thank you. Would I be right in assuming these merit scholarships like Hamilton are primarily stats driven?

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KunAgnis
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KunAgnis » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:43 pm

InTheInterstice wrote: Noted, thank you. Would I be right in assuming these merit scholarships like Hamilton are primarily stats driven?


I personally don't know but my common sense tells me no, simply because at this stage you'd be competing with a cohort of hopefuls who share similar stats to your own. It may be hard for the office to distinguish a 175/3.9 from a 177/3.6. I would think they would look a little more carefully at your softs (post graduation employment, extracurriculars, etc.) and your essay at this stage. Just a guess, though.

E: I suppose this would still make the process primarily stats-driven, though I still would argue that the rest of your application should matter more at this stage.)

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appind
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby appind » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:47 pm

InTheInterstice wrote:
Oh, I see, thank you for explaining. I think I'm mostly asking about chances because of my below average softs.

Thanks for the feedback on that—I'll definitely consider applying to the T6 instead of limiting myself to T3, although my concern in terms of prestige is that I know if I were to do IB for 2 years after my M.S. I would basically be guaranteed into a top MBA program (the firm I have FT from sends basically everyone who wants an MBA to HBS/GSB) and I've heard it's easy to leverage an MBA into a joint MBA/JD at the same institution, so there's that to consider as well.


i don't think there are firms that can almost guarantee their employees an hbs/gsb mba. even very reputable financial firms have many employees that get rejected by HS mba every year. mba admissions works very differently than jd, which is mainly a numbers game and you already have numbers to get into any jd program.

if you're going to do IB at GS or such place, then clearly it helps but not guaranteed even though both hbs/hsb like very young applicants within a few years of college. but hbs/gsb (with gsb much harder to get in than hbs) can ding anyone just to show they can as bschool admissions can be very random from the applicant point of view.

DrGlennRichie
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby DrGlennRichie » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:02 pm

You are asking why people think you are trolling, and I will try to help you.

First off saying "LSAT: 175 (should I retake? honestly hardly studied and didn't take it seriously enough...)" was quite inappropriate and it definitely annoyed a lot of readers (that is the objective of trolling - to get a reaction). Giving a number is OK, saying "hardly studied" - not so much. I do believe your score and I do believe that you are a good test taker. I am in the same boat. At one point I actually wanted to teach standardized tests, but it felt very uncomfortable. But a lot of people, very intelligent, do struggle with this test.

Also, your discussion regarding not having work experience and later presenting internships at top banks and " significant internship work experience abroad" strikes as very odd indeed.

You are probably much better off reaching out to current HYS students/alumni or people that have positions that you want after graduation.

InTheInterstice
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby InTheInterstice » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:07 am

DrGlennRichie wrote:You are asking why people think you are trolling, and I will try to help you.

First off saying "LSAT: 175 (should I retake? honestly hardly studied and didn't take it seriously enough...)" was quite inappropriate and it definitely annoyed a lot of readers (that is the objective of trolling - to get a reaction). Giving a number is OK, saying "hardly studied" - not so much. I do believe your score and I do believe that you are a good test taker. I am in the same boat. At one point I actually wanted to teach standardized tests, but it felt very uncomfortable. But a lot of people, very intelligent, do struggle with this test.

Also, your discussion regarding not having work experience and later presenting internships at top banks and " significant internship work experience abroad" strikes as very odd indeed.

You are probably much better off reaching out to current HYS students/alumni or people that have positions that you want after graduation.


Ah I see, thank you for explaining. My perspective has definitely been skewed by friends of mine who also took the LSAT on a whim and pulled off perfect scores (again, back to the "being lucky test-takers" schtick). What I wanted to emphasize with "significant internship work experience abroad" is to differentiate that type of experience from, say, the typical study abroad programs offered through undergrad, not in any way to suggest that I have anything that would count as real work experience. Apologies for the confusion and annoyance I've caused anyone, as that was definitely not my intention.
Thank you, everyone, for your detailed feedback, help, and advice; I really do appreciate it!

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chargers21
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby chargers21 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:36 am

KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:

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KunAgnis
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KunAgnis » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:46 am

chargers21 wrote: A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:


lmao

RedPurpleBlue
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:03 pm

With those numbers, you could go to any of the top schools #4-#14 give merit aid on almost, if not full-tuition scholarships. At that point, you'd have like $50-$70k of cost of living debt, which is nothing, because if you land in the top of your class you're probably on your way to making $180k/yr. + bonus as a 1st year associate in big law. You could have that debt paid off in a year or less, while still putting a chunk away in savings.

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guynourmin
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby guynourmin » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:50 pm

My 2 cents: if you can be an investment banker, go work for a few years. If the investment bankers I know are anything to go off of, you'll make way more than a lawyer, so after only a year or two you'll have COL for all of law school saved. More than that, though - and I think this is big - you'll be semi-significantly more employable in the types of jobs you are interested in! Make half a million dollars, grow up a little, a be more attractive to future employers. Waiting a couple years is a no-brainer imo. Just make sure you don't let the LSAT score expire.

InTheInterstice
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby InTheInterstice » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:31 am

guybourdin wrote:My 2 cents: if you can be an investment banker, go work for a few years. If the investment bankers I know are anything to go off of, you'll make way more than a lawyer, so after only a year or two you'll have COL for all of law school saved. More than that, though - and I think this is big - you'll be semi-significantly more employable in the types of jobs you are interested in! Make half a million dollars, grow up a little, a be more attractive to future employers. Waiting a couple years is a no-brainer imo. Just make sure you don't let the LSAT score expire.


I appreciate your 2 cents. I've definitely been weighing the pros and cons of waiting and my concerns about delaying law school is that I might be too old for law school? I'll be 23 by the time I start work in IB and after 2-3 years of that I'm wondering if 25-26 puts me out of range to still be attractive to law schools? I know MBAs don't mind (and in fact prefer) it, but not sure about law?

Also, do HYS have deferral of admissions policies? As in, say I hypothetically apply next cycle and get in, could I defer the offer of admission to work in IB for 2 years? Or is that not typically allowed?

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guynourmin
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby guynourmin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:47 am

InTheInterstice wrote:
guybourdin wrote:My 2 cents: if you can be an investment banker, go work for a few years. If the investment bankers I know are anything to go off of, you'll make way more than a lawyer, so after only a year or two you'll have COL for all of law school saved. More than that, though - and I think this is big - you'll be semi-significantly more employable in the types of jobs you are interested in! Make half a million dollars, grow up a little, a be more attractive to future employers. Waiting a couple years is a no-brainer imo. Just make sure you don't let the LSAT score expire.


I appreciate your 2 cents. I've definitely been weighing the pros and cons of waiting and my concerns about delaying law school is that I might be too old for law school? I'll be 23 by the time I start work in IB and after 2-3 years of that I'm wondering if 25-26 puts me out of range to still be attractive to law schools? I know MBAs don't mind (and in fact prefer) it, but not sure about law?

Also, do HYS have deferral of admissions policies? As in, say I hypothetically apply next cycle and get in, could I defer the offer of admission to work in IB for 2 years? Or is that not typically allowed?


25-26 is not too old for law school (and 28-30 is not to old for employers). I think (THINK) they allow some deferrals, but you have to request and make a case. I remember someone on here deferring H last cycle.

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Incrementalist
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby Incrementalist » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:53 am

Congrats on the amazing stats that is a huge accomplishment in itself. I would apply more broadly throughout the t14 though because it's not a definite that you will grab HYS. That's not to say that you wouldn't. I am just saying you should give yourself more options. I think of it this way you never know what admissions is thinking about when giving out offers. Especially at the top 3 schools. They have quite a lot of highly qualified candidates vying for spots as well. I would just say expand your options a little more throughout the t14 and see what happens you never. In my opinion I don't believe you will have a problem getting in though. Good luck to you.

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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby jjcorvino » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:00 pm

InTheInterstice wrote:
DrGlennRichie wrote:You are asking why people think you are trolling, and I will try to help you.

First off saying "LSAT: 175 (should I retake? honestly hardly studied and didn't take it seriously enough...)" was quite inappropriate and it definitely annoyed a lot of readers (that is the objective of trolling - to get a reaction). Giving a number is OK, saying "hardly studied" - not so much. I do believe your score and I do believe that you are a good test taker. I am in the same boat. At one point I actually wanted to teach standardized tests, but it felt very uncomfortable. But a lot of people, very intelligent, do struggle with this test.

Also, your discussion regarding not having work experience and later presenting internships at top banks and " significant internship work experience abroad" strikes as very odd indeed.

You are probably much better off reaching out to current HYS students/alumni or people that have positions that you want after graduation.


Ah I see, thank you for explaining. My perspective has definitely been skewed by friends of mine who also took the LSAT on a whim and pulled off perfect scores (again, back to the "being lucky test-takers" schtick). What I wanted to emphasize with "significant internship work experience abroad" is to differentiate that type of experience from, say, the typical study abroad programs offered through undergrad, not in any way to suggest that I have anything that would count as real work experience. Apologies for the confusion and annoyance I've caused anyone, as that was definitely not my intention.
Thank you, everyone, for your detailed feedback, help, and advice; I really do appreciate it!


Woah, woah, woah. Nobody else is going to touch this comment? This guy has several friends who got 180s on the LSAT without studying? Who are these friends? Did one of them invent the theory of relativity?

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KissMyAxe
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:29 pm

So I had very similar numbers to you, though I did have work experience and some extenuating softs. Obviously, your numbers put you in great position for all three. There is absolutely no need to retake. I would be shocked if you didn't get into Harvard, even if you do have a skeleton you're not telling us about. I also think you're in really great position for Stanford.

Obviously, YLS is a blackbox in admissions. Your softs, as you presented them, are definitely well below average. As it is, I'd say if you're not an underrepresented minority, you probably have a slightly better than coin's flip chance at admission. That's just the name of the game there. That said, I don't believe in this absurd idea of "super softs" that others on here talk about. Softs are all about how you present them. Everyone has something that makes them compelling and unique, you just have to find what yours is. If you would like help drafting essays to bring out the best of you, shoot me a message. I'm happy to help.

I do second the advice about applying more broadly. Yeah, you'll probably get one of HYS, and maybe 2 of the three, but you'll also likely get full rides at one or more of Columbia, NYU, or Chicago. Penn might also get thrown in the mix.

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KissMyAxe
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KissMyAxe » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:34 pm

chargers21 wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:


I think you're just correct interstice, but I do want to vent about this absurd "only Harvard and Yale" thing (I know RBG graduated from Columbia, but she started at HLS). How you did on the LSAT has no bearing on what kind of judge you'll be. I know many judges, and yes, most are fantastic, but the ones that most impressed tended to go to lower ranked schools but were such great attorneys they made a name for yourself.

Also, I don't think Pryor will be the nominee. I think we'll get another HLS grad.

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KunAgnis
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KunAgnis » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:39 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:
chargers21 wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:


I think you're just correct interstice, but I do want to vent about this absurd "only Harvard and Yale" thing (I know RBG graduated from Columbia, but she started at HLS). How you did on the LSAT has no bearing on what kind of judge you'll be. I know many judges, and yes, most are fantastic, but the ones that most impressed tended to go to lower ranked schools but were such great attorneys they made a name for yourself.

Also, I don't think Pryor will be the nominee. I think we'll get another HLS grad.


I completely agree with your sentiment but apart from Justice Thomas most don't seem select their clerks from outside a very narrow range of schools. It's a vicious cycle and honestly up to the Justices to change, since I am going to guess that having federal clerkship is a prerequisite for being considered for Supreme Court nominations

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KissMyAxe
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby KissMyAxe » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:33 am

KunAgnis wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
chargers21 wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:


I think you're just correct interstice, but I do want to vent about this absurd "only Harvard and Yale" thing (I know RBG graduated from Columbia, but she started at HLS). How you did on the LSAT has no bearing on what kind of judge you'll be. I know many judges, and yes, most are fantastic, but the ones that most impressed tended to go to lower ranked schools but were such great attorneys they made a name for yourself.

Also, I don't think Pryor will be the nominee. I think we'll get another HLS grad.


I completely agree with your sentiment but apart from Justice Thomas most don't seem select their clerks from outside a very narrow range of schools. It's a vicious cycle and honestly up to the Justices to change, since I am going to guess that having federal clerkship is a prerequisite for being considered for Supreme Court nominations


Wow, my grammar was shit in that last post. I see like 5 errors. Oh well.

That's pretty much true. Though I'd say it's a little more true of the liberal justices (although Sotomayor has taken clerks from non-T14 schools), I'd say only Thomas does it with any regularity. I don't think it's a prerequisite at all though. I think whether or not you clerked is largely irrelevant to getting on the bench. Of the current Court, 3 did not. And of Trumps final 10 or so, about half did not clerk. While it's true there's a correlation between clerking and being on the supreme court, I think that's probably a result of them all going to schools where a large number of students do clerk. To get on the bench (which I don't think is such a great job), it's more a question of sucking up to your state's senators and the majority party leadership, while avoiding anything controversial, and then getting extremely lucky.

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chargers21
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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby chargers21 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:48 am

KissMyAxe wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
chargers21 wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.

A Tulane grad is about to get a Supreme court nomination though :roll: :shock:


I think you're just correct interstice, but I do want to vent about this absurd "only Harvard and Yale" thing (I know RBG graduated from Columbia, but she started at HLS). How you did on the LSAT has no bearing on what kind of judge you'll be. I know many judges, and yes, most are fantastic, but the ones that most impressed tended to go to lower ranked schools but were such great attorneys they made a name for yourself.

Also, I don't think Pryor will be the nominee. I think we'll get another HLS grad.


I completely agree with your sentiment but apart from Justice Thomas most don't seem select their clerks from outside a very narrow range of schools. It's a vicious cycle and honestly up to the Justices to change, since I am going to guess that having federal clerkship is a prerequisite for being considered for Supreme Court nominations


Wow, my grammar was shit in that last post. I see like 5 errors. Oh well.

That's pretty much true. Though I'd say it's a little more true of the liberal justices (although Sotomayor has taken clerks from non-T14 schools), I'd say only Thomas does it with any regularity. I don't think it's a prerequisite at all though. I think whether or not you clerked is largely irrelevant to getting on the bench. Of the current Court, 3 did not. And of Trumps final 10 or so, about half did not clerk. While it's true there's a correlation between clerking and being on the supreme court, I think that's probably a result of them all going to schools where a large number of students do clerk. To get on the bench (which I don't think is such a great job), it's more a question of sucking up to your state's senators and the majority party leadership, while avoiding anything controversial, and then getting extremely lucky.

Besing on the Supreme Court would be the bomb. Unfortunately, if I had to make any decisions as a judge on any substantial court, both parties would hate me for not favoring them and splitting down the middle on many issues

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Re: 175/3.9+ chances at HYS ONLY

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:02 am

InTheInterstice wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
InTheInterstice wrote: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. In terms of career specific goals, I'm most likely aiming for unicorn jobs (if I'm understanding this term correctly as top-tier biglaw firms and corporate positions?) in securities litigation and economic consulting (given my background in finance). With that in mind, do you still think attending CCN is equivalent to HYS? Assuming money isn't the biggest objective...since I'd presumably be able to earn back student loans rather quickly working out of biglaw?


I'll correct you (I'm horrible at telling if someone is trolling but you sound genuine, so). "Unicorn jobs" doesn't refer to big law positions - anyone at or above median from T14 have a good shot at those. It refers to professorship, clerking for federal judges, working at impact public interest (NAACP, ACLU? Don't know too much about this) and potentially becoming a supreme court justice down the line. These are restricted to the top schools within the T14.


Honestly I really don't understand why people think I'm a troll? :? But thank you for the clarification. I think my conflict then is wanting to keep my options open in terms of working securities litigation on the government side, which I'm assuming would need the HYS credentials?


there's no hard and fast distinction between the credentials for those three schools and the very similar schools next to it (e.g. Columbia or UChicago). It's more of a sliding scale. As for "securities litigation on the government side," the Chair of the SEC, Mary Jo White (the head gov't securities attorney) is a Columbia grad, so I guess you really need CLS credentials. I kid, but its worth mentioning that until this year, the Solicitor General, the Attorney General, and the SEC Chair were all CLS grads, so you definitely shouldn't feel like going there will be any detriment in getting a government job.

See where you wind up in terms of admissions. The Hamilton at CLS may wind up as your best option (full tuition scholarship).




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