Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

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calibanrain

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Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby calibanrain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:34 pm

I have 168 LSATs and 3.38 GPA from a top 10 college, and I'm strongly considering applying ED to either Northwestern (with the full scholarship) or UVA. Does anyone have an idea of which ED would be more competitive?

Right now it feels like both options would be a reach given my stats, and the most realistic plan is to apply ED to UVA and regularly to Northwestern, and just assume that 1. I most likely won't get into UVA 2. Northwestern might give me some $, though obviously nothing close to full ride.

I'm interested in public interest type work, btw. Other schools I'm primarily considering are UCLA, USC, Michigan, Cornell, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Vanderbilt. Also, money isn't a concern for me (won't go into debt, parents will pay, but would like to get $$ for their sake).

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:40 pm

That's very kind of you to not want to unnecessarily cost your parents hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I assume this is all for next cycle, so if you want to secure admission to either school with money, a retake above 170 would do that. That said, the only one of the two schools you should consider ED for is Northwestern, because it comes with the guaranteed scholarship. But because Northwestern comes with that guaranteed scholarship, you aren't likely to get it with your current stats. If you actually don't care about your parents paying insane amounts of money, then ED UVA. It's been shown to provide at least a minimal boost, but you're guaranteed to pay sticker.

However, if you're interested in PI, why are these your target schools? Northwestern isn't particularly known for the strength of their PI placement, and UVA tends to attract more people with a government focus. Your other school choices also don't make much sense: why Notre Dame and UCLA/USC? Those schools can realistically only place you in their respective regions for work, and those are very different regions of the country.

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby calibanrain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:40 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:That's very kind of you to not want to unnecessarily cost your parents hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I assume this is all for next cycle, so if you want to secure admission to either school with money, a retake above 170 would do that. That said, the only one of the two schools you should consider ED for is Northwestern, because it comes with the guaranteed scholarship. But because Northwestern comes with that guaranteed scholarship, you aren't likely to get it with your current stats. If you actually don't care about your parents paying insane amounts of money, then ED UVA. It's been shown to provide at least a minimal boost, but you're guaranteed to pay sticker.

However, if you're interested in PI, why are these your target schools? Northwestern isn't particularly known for the strength of their PI placement, and UVA tends to attract more people with a government focus. Your other school choices also don't make much sense: why Notre Dame and UCLA/USC? Those schools can realistically only place you in their respective regions for work, and those are very different regions of the country.


Yup next cycle. So you're saying that you think its more likely that I'd get into UVA than Northwestern, ED? I've been playing around with mylsn numbers for ED only admissions and it's difficult to tell.

I guess I should have been more specific, I'm most interested in government and international law, but don't think that's a realistic choice considering the job market in that field without UVA or better. Public interest seemed the broadest way to define the fact that I'm not interested in making bank at a firm. As to why I like NU, I like Chicago, their employment stats in all areas (including PI) are ridiculously strong considering their rank, and it really impressed me as a school that doesn't shaft its students (as opposed to say, Georgetown). I know they're not set up for PI specifically, but past students on tls forums have said with grades and initiative Northwestern is amazing for fellowships, infrastructure, job placement, opportunities even for PI and stats definitely seem to back that up.

As to the other schools I'm considering, most of them fit into that lower-end T-14 and just below range, so I'm basically choosing the best schools within my GPA/LSATs scores (Vanderbilt, Georgetown, UCLA, Duke, Michigan, Cornell are all on the higher end of target for me). USC and Notre Dame are lower-end target schools that I chose for employment stats, ranking, and quality of life, and actually both schools had higher prestige and overall job placement stats than places like GWU or WUSTL or William and Mary. Did you have other schools in mind that you think merit consideration?

Yeah I'm taking the LSAT again in Feb, 168 was low for me. I am hoping for a higher score but don't want to plan on it.

Not trying to have a discussion about money or what my family earns. I only included it because of ED specifically and cost concerns. If you feel like a more detailed understanding of my financial situation would be helpful for you, I'd be happy to message you.

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:02 pm

I do think it's more likely that you'd get UVA than NU with respect to ED, because NU is more selective about their ED students. You would be too if you were giving them close to a full ride.

You may want to check out this thread on PI employment stats. Don't get me wrong: you can probably get some great PI outcomes from Northwestern, but they do not have a lot of students going that way, nor do they have a vast alumni network in the field. And lacking those things means that you're going to be doing most of the legwork in finding the job opportunities you're looking for.

Again, it's not so much that I have different ideas about where you should apply, but schools like USC and Notre Dame are regional powerhouses. If you go to Notre Dame, you're stuck in the Midwest, with even less reach than a WashU graduate. If you go to USC, you're in California. That's fine if you want that outcome, but once you're looking at schools in that ranking band, you need to focus on region, not overall "prestige" (neither of those schools have "prestige" in the sense that a T14 school does). That also means not focusing on overall employment stats, because the two schools are placing their students in totally different jobs. No one from Notre Dame is realistically competing with USC students for a position in Southern California, and vice versa for Chicago.

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PrezRand

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby PrezRand » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:35 pm

Is NW really a full scholarship? On their website it says 150k. That would only cover 2 years and part of the 3rd

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby candidlatke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:28 pm

it's 150k; it's closer to 3 years than 2 and pretty much a full ride (minus CoL)

while OP probably won't get in ED to NW, there should be enough of a bump with the ED'd app (with the declaration of interest) that his chances there and his chances of money there should be reasonably greater enough to warrant thoughts of ED'ing there

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:38 pm

candidlatke wrote:it's 150k; it's closer to 3 years than 2 and pretty much a full ride (minus CoL)

while OP probably won't get in ED to NW, there should be enough of a bump with the ED'd app (with the declaration of interest) that his chances there and his chances of money there should be reasonably greater enough to warrant thoughts of ED'ing there


That's not actually true.

Applying ED generally doesn't bump anyone's chances of admission to law school, period. In Northwestern's case, you actually have a lower chance of getting admitted ED, even if you're admitted in the RD pool, because you may very well be a great candidate, but you may not be great enough to justify a $150k scholarship. UVA is one of the few schools where people have seen an increase in admissions chances for similar candidates, but at UVA, you're guaranteed to pay sticker (so the adcomms are almost making the opposite calculation from the ones at Northwestern).

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby candidlatke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:41 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
candidlatke wrote:it's 150k; it's closer to 3 years than 2 and pretty much a full ride (minus CoL)

while OP probably won't get in ED to NW, there should be enough of a bump with the ED'd app (with the declaration of interest) that his chances there and his chances of money there should be reasonably greater enough to warrant thoughts of ED'ing there


That's not actually true.

Applying ED generally doesn't bump anyone's chances of admission to law school, period. In Northwestern's case, you actually have a lower chance of getting admitted ED, even if you're admitted in the RD pool, because you may very well be a great candidate, but you may not be great enough to justify a $150k scholarship. UVA is one of the few schools where people have seen an increase in admissions chances for similar candidates, but at UVA, you're guaranteed to pay sticker (so the adcomms are almost making the opposite calculation from the ones at Northwestern).


candidates get deferred from ED to RD all the time. go to one of MS9's threads; they'll concur with the sentiment that ED'ing for a school shows that it is your #1 choice. at the end of the day, while numbers are king, adcoms want to admit kids who genuinely want to go and would matriculate. there's nothing stronger at showing it than ED'ing. might not be a huge bump but it's a bump nonetheless

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:45 pm

candidlatke wrote:candidates get deferred from ED to RD all the time. go to one of MS9's threads; they'll concur with the sentiment that ED'ing for a school shows that it is your #1 choice. at the end of the day, while numbers are king, adcoms want to admit kids who genuinely want to go and would matriculate. there's nothing stronger at showing it than ED'ing. might not be a huge bump but it's a bump nonetheless


Except that this is demonstrably untrue, and the few attempts at analyzing the spotty data that have been done have shown that at some schools, your chances of admission technically decrease by applying ED. With Northwestern, it's well established that your numbers have to be better than average to get in ED, simply by virtue of the scholarship. Which also makes sense, because, you know, basic math.

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby UVA2B » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:45 pm

candidlatke wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
candidlatke wrote:it's 150k; it's closer to 3 years than 2 and pretty much a full ride (minus CoL)

while OP probably won't get in ED to NW, there should be enough of a bump with the ED'd app (with the declaration of interest) that his chances there and his chances of money there should be reasonably greater enough to warrant thoughts of ED'ing there


That's not actually true.

Applying ED generally doesn't bump anyone's chances of admission to law school, period. In Northwestern's case, you actually have a lower chance of getting admitted ED, even if you're admitted in the RD pool, because you may very well be a great candidate, but you may not be great enough to justify a $150k scholarship. UVA is one of the few schools where people have seen an increase in admissions chances for similar candidates, but at UVA, you're guaranteed to pay sticker (so the adcomms are almost making the opposite calculation from the ones at Northwestern).


candidates get deferred from ED to RD all the time. go to one of MS9's threads; they'll concur with the sentiment that ED'ing for a school shows that it is your #1 choice. at the end of the day, while numbers are king, adcoms want to admit kids who genuinely want to go and would matriculate. there's nothing stronger at showing it than ED'ing. might not be a huge bump but it's a bump nonetheless


You're extrapolating what adcoms do generally with the unique situation at NU poorly. Of course a demonstrated interest through ED normally affects one's chances of admission when the ED doesn't come with a $150k prize. But in the case of NU, we're talking about an ED that is exclusively designed to grab highly qualified candidates that would likely go elsewhere without the tuition discount.

If ED gave a noticeable bump at NU, why wouldn't everyone just throw that hail mary ED app in hopes of grabbing the RD acceptance? Because the ED isn't designed for the average applicant.

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby candidlatke » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:48 pm

UVA2B wrote:
candidlatke wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
candidlatke wrote:it's 150k; it's closer to 3 years than 2 and pretty much a full ride (minus CoL)

while OP probably won't get in ED to NW, there should be enough of a bump with the ED'd app (with the declaration of interest) that his chances there and his chances of money there should be reasonably greater enough to warrant thoughts of ED'ing there


That's not actually true.

Applying ED generally doesn't bump anyone's chances of admission to law school, period. In Northwestern's case, you actually have a lower chance of getting admitted ED, even if you're admitted in the RD pool, because you may very well be a great candidate, but you may not be great enough to justify a $150k scholarship. UVA is one of the few schools where people have seen an increase in admissions chances for similar candidates, but at UVA, you're guaranteed to pay sticker (so the adcomms are almost making the opposite calculation from the ones at Northwestern).


candidates get deferred from ED to RD all the time. go to one of MS9's threads; they'll concur with the sentiment that ED'ing for a school shows that it is your #1 choice. at the end of the day, while numbers are king, adcoms want to admit kids who genuinely want to go and would matriculate. there's nothing stronger at showing it than ED'ing. might not be a huge bump but it's a bump nonetheless


You're extrapolating what adcoms do generally with the unique situation at NU poorly. Of course a demonstrated interest through ED normally affects one's chances of admission when the ED doesn't come with a $150k prize. But in the case of NU, we're talking about an ED that is exclusively designed to grab highly qualified candidates that would likely go elsewhere without the tuition discount.

If ED gave a noticeable bump at NU, why wouldn't everyone just throw that hail mary ED app in hopes of grabbing the RD acceptance? Because the ED isn't designed for the average applicant.


that's a fair point, i retract my statement about NU

calibanrain

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Re: Early decision: Northwestern vs UVA

Postby calibanrain » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:39 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I do think it's more likely that you'd get UVA than NU with respect to ED, because NU is more selective about their ED students. You would be too if you were giving them close to a full ride.

You may want to check out this thread on PI employment stats. Don't get me wrong: you can probably get some great PI outcomes from Northwestern, but they do not have a lot of students going that way, nor do they have a vast alumni network in the field. And lacking those things means that you're going to be doing most of the legwork in finding the job opportunities you're looking for.

Again, it's not so much that I have different ideas about where you should apply, but schools like USC and Notre Dame are regional powerhouses. If you go to Notre Dame, you're stuck in the Midwest, with even less reach than a WashU graduate. If you go to USC, you're in California. That's fine if you want that outcome, but once you're looking at schools in that ranking band, you need to focus on region, not overall "prestige" (neither of those schools have "prestige" in the sense that a T14 school does). That also means not focusing on overall employment stats, because the two schools are placing their students in totally different jobs. No one from Notre Dame is realistically competing with USC students for a position in Southern California, and vice versa for Chicago.


Ok, thanks for the information. Are there schools you'd recommend for PI in that T-14 to T-20 range, that you think have better alumni networks or that go beyond regional advantages?



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