Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

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Seven-eight

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Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby Seven-eight » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:37 am

I am a rising 3L at the University of Florida (ranked #48 as of now) in the top 15% of my class. I am also a member of a journal (not law review) and I am currently completing a Summer Associate position with a law firm focusing on securities law that I landed through an on campus interview. So far, the only tax class that I have taken is personal income tax and I received an A-. My buddies at UF Tax LLM have all told me that I should have no problem getting into NYU, Georgetown and Florida tax. Thus, my first question is: how accurate is this statement?

Furthermore, I came straight into UF Law from UF undergrad and I am ready to get out of Gainesville (although UF Tax LLM landed my friends good jobs and is by far the cheapest top tax LLM option). Thus, should I get into both, I am between Georgetown and NYU. Although NYU is #1 and Georgetown is #2, I would prefer Georgetown, as I prefer DC's lifestyle and my long time girlfriend is moving to the DC area. However, I would find it very hard to pay full price at Georgetown, while passing on NYU. Does anyone know how generous Georgetown is with scholarships and if they are open to negotiations if you were to tell them that you got into NYU, but would prefer Georgetown if the money is right? Secondly, before I got ahead of myself with the last question, does anyone know if a person with my resume is likely to be considered for a scholarship at Georgetown tax?
Thank you in advance!

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:01 am

I know people who got an LLMs from GULC and they are total disappointments in life.

One got an LLM in securities law and he is now working in a three person operation that helps outsource American jobs overseas. He's a total loser.

The two others who got a tax LLM are all solo practicioners and they do not look like they have a lot of business. If your heart is set on tax law, I would recommend you find a cute CPA to help you out and open your own firm now. Don't put yourself through more debt!!!!

Seven-eight

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby Seven-eight » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:33 am

1) Did you even read my post? 2) Every Tax LLM that I know went to Florida, NYU or GULC and is at a job making $100,000+ starting salary 3) My current debt is approximately 0 dollars.

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lymenheimer

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby lymenheimer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:05 pm

Seven-eight wrote:1) Did you even read my post? 2) Every Tax LLM that I know went to Florida, NYU or GULC and is at a job making $100,000+ starting salary 3) My current debt is approximately 0 dollars.


BoobGoddess is a certified idiot.

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Pomeranian

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby Pomeranian » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:18 pm

Unfair that my alt (PresTTTigious, w/ the pink poo and crown emoji) gets banned, but Boobgodess is still allowed to post!

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:30 pm

I am allowed to post because I am telling the truth.

Since you are going back to school, you are losing a year of income. This could be $30K, $60K, $80K, $100K, whatever.

It will cost about $75K to cover tuition, fees, living costs, and other expenses (depending on how large you live, but rent in DC is expensive).

Your profit after going to school is not 100K because you need to deduct expenses. Even if you get $100K out of Gtown LLM look what happens. 100K after taxes is about $70K (the higher amount you make the more taxes they deduct). Since you owe about $75K, it's the equivalent of making no money for two years. Also, how long will you stay hired? What if you get fired after a couple months??

Meanwhile, if you open your own private practice now, you could start off making $40K and start to develop your clients. After two years, you could be making a name for yourself, and by which time youd be making more money.

I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners. Most tax law departments like to hire people with accounting undergrads plus JDs, not tax LLMs.If you have an accounting background that should be enough. If you don't and go the LLM route, you're probably going to end up as a solo practitioner. It is a lot harder to start as a solo practitioner with 75K debt hanging over your head than it is with zero debt.

Not worth it, in my view.

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:45 am

BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:13 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.


Ummmm... because I'm telling the truth. See below!

Exhibit A: Leonard S. Roth (Tax LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://leonardsroth.com/houstonlawyer_tax_estate_lawyer_education.html
Exhibit B: H. Charles Jahnke (LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://hcjlaw.com

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:15 am

BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.


Ummmm... because I'm telling the truth. See below!

Exhibit A: Leonard S. Roth (Tax LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://leonardsroth.com/houstonlawyer_tax_estate_lawyer_education.html
Exhibit B: H. Charles Jahnke (LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://hcjlaw.com


I don't think you quite got my point...

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:20 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.


Ummmm... because I'm telling the truth. See below!

Exhibit A: Leonard S. Roth (Tax LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://leonardsroth.com/houstonlawyer_tax_estate_lawyer_education.html
Exhibit B: H. Charles Jahnke (LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://hcjlaw.com


I don't think you quite got my point...


Cav, love, I did get your point. I just offered up examples to prove my point. Maybe you just didn't like hearing the truth.

The point is that tax departments want JD/CPA people. If you don't have a CPA, getting an LLM won't help. If you have a CPA, you don't need an LLM. Your best bet to become a tax lawyer is to just start your own firm if you can't get a firm job after your JD. Because you'll be doing it anyway after an expensive LLM that you don't need.

cavalier1138

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:24 am

BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.


Ummmm... because I'm telling the truth. See below!

Exhibit A: Leonard S. Roth (Tax LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://leonardsroth.com/houstonlawyer_tax_estate_lawyer_education.html
Exhibit B: H. Charles Jahnke (LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://hcjlaw.com


I don't think you quite got my point...


Cav, love, I did get your point. I just offered up examples to prove my point. Maybe you just didn't like hearing the truth.

The point is that tax departments want JD/CPA people. If you don't have a CPA, getting an LLM won't help. If you have a CPA, you don't need an LLM. Your best bet to become a tax lawyer is to just start your own firm if you can't get a firm job after your JD. Because you'll be doing it anyway after an expensive LLM that you don't need.


*sigh*

My point (and you have clearly demonstrated that you didn't understand) was that two lawyers do not constitute a statistical trend. Broader studies have been done on LLM programs, and they've shown that a Tax LLM from one of the top programs results in much higher earning potential for graduates.

Again, "I know these two guys who are experiencing this outcome," is irrelevant. It does not mean anything. I'm sure you can find two Harvard grads who are homeless. Doesn't mean that Harvard is a bad choice of law school.

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:30 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BoobGoddess wrote:I'm not gonna lie. I know two tax LLMs that ended up as solo practitioners.


Why do all of your stories start with, "I know two people from [insert well-regarded program here] who are now [insert unlikely bad outcome here]?"

The plural of anecdote is not data. Georgetown's Tax LLM is considered one of the best in the country. And while more debt is bad, the Tax LLM is one of the only LLM degrees that actually increases earning potential.


Ummmm... because I'm telling the truth. See below!

Exhibit A: Leonard S. Roth (Tax LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://leonardsroth.com/houstonlawyer_tax_estate_lawyer_education.html
Exhibit B: H. Charles Jahnke (LLM from Georgetown, ended up as a solo practitioner) http://hcjlaw.com


I don't think you quite got my point...


Cav, love, I did get your point. I just offered up examples to prove my point. Maybe you just didn't like hearing the truth.

The point is that tax departments want JD/CPA people. If you don't have a CPA, getting an LLM won't help. If you have a CPA, you don't need an LLM. Your best bet to become a tax lawyer is to just start your own firm if you can't get a firm job after your JD. Because you'll be doing it anyway after an expensive LLM that you don't need.


*sigh*

My point (and you have clearly demonstrated that you didn't understand) was that two lawyers do not constitute a statistical trend. Broader studies have been done on LLM programs, and they've shown that a Tax LLM from one of the top programs results in much higher earning potential for graduates.

Again, "I know these two guys who are experiencing this outcome," is irrelevant. It does not mean anything. I'm sure you can find two Harvard grads who are homeless. Doesn't mean that Harvard is a bad choice of law school.


I think I've addressed this too, but you aren't listening to me. My definition of earning potential doesn't just look at your post graduation salary. It looks at the whole equation. Your starting salary minus the debt you incurred plus lost income (by not working the first year). Even under the best of assumptions (say you do get a 100K salary post graduation), it's the equivalent of NOT WORKING for two years, because subtracting taxes, living costs, and debt incurred, you have zero left over!

But it's also possible (as shown through my two examples) you're not so lucky... you might end up having to start your own solo practice. You cannot service $75K debt on a $45K solo practice income. But had you entered the workforce a year earlier and developed clientele, you would have made $45K the first year, which would allow you to put that towards advertising and you might earn $75K the next year.

Also, by getting the LLM, you put yourself behind one year in terms of fulltime work experience. Who is gonna hire you if you have no fulltime work experience????

cavalier1138

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:43 am

Solo practice is not an expected or usual outcome from a Tax LLM at NYU or Georgetown. Stop acting like it is because you know two exceptions to the rule.

And by your logic, no one should ever go to school, because who wants to hire someone who spent time on training/education instead of full-time employment?

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BoobGoddess

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby BoobGoddess » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:48 am

cavalier1138 wrote:Solo practice is not an expected or usual outcome from a Tax LLM at NYU or Georgetown. Stop acting like it is because you know two exceptions to the rule.

And by your logic, no one should ever go to school, because who wants to hire someone who spent time on training/education instead of full-time employment?


Not quite, love. I'll walk you through it though.

Obviously, there's no way around getting a JD if you want to become a lawyer or getting an MD if you want to be a doctor. Those degrees are necessary to enter the field.

The LLM doesn't work that way. It's a degree really designed for foreign students educated in other countries who want to work in the United States. Some schools want to make money so they try to sell it to more people, so you get things like the tax LLM program at this top school or that top school whatever. Point is, if you have a JD from an American law school, you DON'T NEED an LLM. It really is that simple!

If you aren't a foreign student and were educated at an American law school, the LLM program is basically like Trump University. It makes huge promises about what you're gonna make. But you might end up unsatisfied! :wink:

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:56 am

BoobGoddess wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Solo practice is not an expected or usual outcome from a Tax LLM at NYU or Georgetown. Stop acting like it is because you know two exceptions to the rule.

And by your logic, no one should ever go to school, because who wants to hire someone who spent time on training/education instead of full-time employment?


Not quite, love. I'll walk you through it though.

Obviously, there's no way around getting a JD if you want to become a lawyer or getting an MD if you want to be a doctor. Those degrees are necessary to enter the field.

The LLM doesn't work that way. It's a degree really designed for foreign students educated in other countries who want to work in the United States. Some schools want to make money so they try to sell it to more people, so you get things like the tax LLM program at this top school or that top school whatever. Point is, if you have a JD from an American law school, you DON'T NEED an LLM. It really is that simple!

If you aren't a foreign student and were educated at an American law school, the LLM program is basically like Trump University. It makes huge promises about what you're gonna make. But you might end up unsatisfied! :wink:


Yes, that's all correct for LLM programs in general. But it's been widely acknowledged that a Tax LLM is different and that it can be incredibly valuable for American students to get one if they want to specialize. Feel free to Google "Should I get an LLM?" to see multiple articles addressing the difference between Tax LLM programs and other LLM programs.

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Re: Georgetown v. NYU Tax LLM Question

Postby Johann » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:15 am

You're a shoe-in at gtown and Florida. Probably will get into nyu but take some more tax classes this year to show your commitment and interest in the field.

If you get into nyu, you should go there. It's only 9 months in a different location but will open up more doors for you probably.



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