Princeton grad applying top schools Forum

[Budfox55]

Just to point out and clear up a few things in this thread that I have seen continuously throughout TLS concerning Finance/investment banking and start-up/VC. Please realize that most of you who have no experience with finance and start-ups sound as ignorant as 0Ls talking about biglaw life. If you want to give advice about law and the legal profession, great, but please be cautious when you start recommending to head into X industry because of YZ reasons. I'm a 0L so I won't comment on the legal work aspects of it except for what i've learn from my discussion with ex-bankers turned lawyers and from what I've seen concerning a law degree in the start-up scene. I have worked at an investment bank and currently work for a "unicorn" start-up (think spotify, uber, etc) in a capacity where I deal with different, smaller, start-ups and VCs on a daily basis.

I've read the "most people in law would have killed to start off in investment banking as a 22 year old" so many times here. This may be shocking to some of you, but theres a good chunk of IB analysts who wish everyday that they just took the LSAT and applied to law school as well. And many ending up doing that. Investment banking fucking sucks. I have spoken to attorney's who've done this and they all think they made the right decision (all litigators). I've also read about people on this forum who made that decision and hated it (seems to be mostly transactional types). Its very much a "grass is greener on the other side" thing and has a lot to do with your own personal values and motivations behind working in a certain industry. There are for sure attorneys who should have 100% gone the banking/finance route instead, however that isn't everybody. For some people, law may be a better alternative.

As for what the OP mentioned before concerning transaction law firms who work with startups, these 100% exist and I have worked with some these firms. They're essentially start-ups that provide legal services to other startups. They also all generally really enjoy it from my conversations with them because they work more in a advisory capacity for their clients and a lot of the decisions that they make are literally life or death decisions for these startups. They seemed to all have worked in biglaw for less than 2 years, many dipping only a few months in. all of the attorneys I've met at these firms went to top undergrads schools and many were able to get their job by using their undergrad network rather than law school network.

Which leads to my next point about signaling. Going to a top undergrad, working at JPM, and going to law school, combined with being able to sell a story about entrepreneurial spirit and why business, is good enough signaling for a lot of VCs and start-ups. People on this board seem to be very adamant about how a legal education doesn't teach you anything about running a business, which I'm sure is true, but neither does business school lol. And VCs and start-up types know this. The main reason why you go to B-school is for the stamp on your resume and the network, but OP already has a great network. Many start-up founders also see a lot of value in hiring a JD early on. Like I said, a lot of these start-ups go through legal decisions that are literally life-or-death and so many people see the value of having a lawyer as a co-founder or someone involved early on. Again, these guys also seemed to have used their undergrad network (Bob the biglaw attorney's frat bro decides to start a company. Said frat-bro's idea would deal with possibly murky legal issues and asks Bob to join. Bob says fuck biglaw and joins as a co-founder). Tbh I've met more attorney's in the start-up scene than I would have thought. Not as many as ex bigtech or bankers, but still more than I expected.

Caveats:

I don't know what % of attorneys try to break into the start-up/VC scene, so I have no idea how likely it is. However I'll ask actual law school students/practicing attorneys, how many people do you know are ACTUALLY gunning for these types of jobs? I feel like there may be a lot of ppl who say they're interested, but don't put in the work or actually try. Also, not many who try may have the network that OP has which seems to help immensely.

if I had to guess, it seemed like all of these attorneys came from wealthy families as they didn't have to stay in biglaw long.

I agree with the sentiment that if OP does not want to be a lawyer, than he probably shouldn't go to law school. If I wanted to work at an early stage start-up, I would have worked in tech after JPM (could literally be in sales) and then leverage the banking/tech sales experience to some start-up. I don't think going to law school and taking on debt would be the right decision to maximize your chance of attaining that goal.

Aren't you a 0L? IMO spending 3 years not working + potentially spendnig 100k+ because "it sucks a little less than investment banking" sounds like a not great reason to go to law school. Plus, making 100+ as a 22 year old sounds pretty sweet to me. I had to pull 90% of the hours ibankers did for like 40% of the pay before law school. It could definitely be worse.

BTW OP: you're going to have a very difficult time finding a job as an IP attorney without a technical background, especially in the bay area.

Yes, I am. I know that was a ridiculously long post lol, but i mentioned that in my first paragraph.

I don't think its as much about "it sucks less" as much as there are other things about law specifically, especially litigation, that the people I spoked to liked over finance.

[yaliehopeful]

Hey guys,

First time I've been on the forum, wanted to
Get some feedback on top schools, specifically Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, Yale.

-Princeton class of 2015
-GPA:3.35 (grade deflation is the worst)
-LSAT: 173
-African-Canadian

I've spent my summers from 2011-2015 interning in investment banking in New York and Toronto at JPMorgan. After grad, I worked full time
At JPM in London, England for a year.

Im about to start a year long position with a Member Parliament in Canada (the equivalent of a hybrid between a congressman and senator in US terms) doing constituency work specifically with regards to rural poverty.

Appreciate any feedback

Fellow African Canadian here, although your GPA is below median for all the schools you mentioned (gotta love that Princeton grade deflation), your stats are fairly strong, you should be good at CCN on down. Of HYS, you'll have the best shot at H, however, even that is far from guaranteed. My friend jnwa is another African Canadian whose stats are identical to yours, a 3.3ish gpa from U of T (which is also notorious for severe grade deflation) and a 173 LSAT, however, he is a k-jd (which doesn't really matter tbh). Anyways, he got dinged at HYS, but got Columbia, NYU, UPenn among several other T-14 schools and U of T. He's headed to UMich as a Darrow Scholar, full ride, stipend, the whole lot paid for, his cycle turned out pretty fucking sweet if you ask me, he is definitely someone you should consult, i'm happy to answer any questions you may have as well.

[eph]

You might want to change your screen name. With your GPA it would not seem likely that HYS is in the cards. I have never seen much evidence that there is an adjustment mechanism for grade deflation (went to undergrad at a school that Forbes often flip flops with Princeton as the best undergrad) and to US News numbers are basically numbers. You should have some very good choices with great money from non T6. Where you want to practice is the bigger question.

[jbagelboy]

You might want to change your screen name. With your GPA it would not seem likely that HYS is in the cards. I have never seen much evidence that there is an adjustment mechanism for grade deflation (went to undergrad at a school that Forbes often flip flops with Princeton as the best undergrad) and to US News numbers are basically numbers. You should have some very good choices with great money from non T6. Where you want to practice is the bigger question.

Harvard college practices crazy grade inflation, princeton practices active grade deflation. Looking at transcripts from the schools is not the same despite their university ranking, although I agree of course that Princeton grads don't tend to receive a huge boost or anything for low GPAs in law school admissions. Also Pomona and Stanford have flip-flopped for 1st and 2nd the past couple years in Forbes.. Do you mean USNews?

[eph]

Pretty sure the purple cows (also noted for grade deflation) were 2nd in Forbes this past year and first in 2014. I mean not that it matters. I'm just saying...

[WinterComing]

You might want to change your screen name.

To whom was this directed? If OP, I'm not sure what's wrong with Gstate as a screen name, unless you're worried he's going to out himself as being from Georgia or New Jersey or something. If yaliehopeful, that person has already been accepted to, and is enrolling at, Yale.

[jbagelboy]

Pretty sure the purple cows (also noted for grade deflation) were 2nd in Forbes this past year and first in 2014. I mean not that it matters. I'm just saying...

You're right, it was Pomona then Williams this year and Stanford then Pomona in 2013, and Williams first in 2014. Doesn't matter, I was just curious what your UG was since princeton usually isnt first in Forbes so it didnt make sense

[eph]

My bad.

[4'sup]

Consensus view here is: don't go.

In terms of alternatives, few have been proposed. The one recommendation is to speak to career services, but in terns of educational attainment, so far people are saying to do nothing.

Unsure how wise it is to stuck with a bachelors degree in politics only...

Your politics degree has already gotten you a better job than99% of legal jobs. I don't think the whole useless liberal arts degree paradigm applies to you.

you're exaggerating the quality and significance of an entry level analyst job. it's not better than 99% of legal jobs. and it's far from a certain prospect after the contract is up (no job security). I've never really understood the TLS hard-on for finance. It's a good job out of college but it has basically all the downsides of biglaw with even less staying power and a far less established route to the top. I'm sure OP also has some friends from college that are struggling. But yes, his degree is far from useless.

I don't fully understanding your underlying motivations, OP. If you want to have your own law practice and provide a service to clients, then by all means, go to law school! Just keep your debt low so your opportunities for entrepreneurship won't be as limited. If you really just think of the law practice as a means to break into something else or for a high salary, then I agree with these other posters that law school is misguided for you, since its NOT the most lucrative option NOR the most flexible.

If you are interested in politics and policy--I'm a TPM/politico/economist junkie as well--you could consider getting an MPA degree after a few more years in finance/on the hill, but I don't think it's really necessary.

So as someone who did the entry level analyst job yes many of you on here are overestimating the job security and quality. That aside,

1. The point made earlier about meeting Young the lawyers who did about two years at a big firm before starting their own and giving legal advisory service to start ups I found to be most interesting this is probably exactly what I would like to do. Again, not actually running their company, but providing advisory service. Clearly not something that can be done without a JD, no?

2. Relatedly, the topic of debt. Clearly starting your own firm would be much easier with little debt from law school . However, if you want the prestige of a big name like a Columbia or Berkeley, you'll have to pay up and get into loads of debt. The only way to escape with little debt is have the grades for a Berkeley or Columbia but leverage them into a scholarship at a UVA or Michigan for instance. Would you advise doing this in order to minimize debt ? Specifically, for someone like me who wants to go to the west coast and advise start up companies, does it make sense to go to a UVA or Duke Michigan (even if it could be a full scholarship or very close to it) and miss out on being in law School in the Bay Area (Berkeley) or give up a good network (Columbia)?

Thanks so much for all your posts. Very encouraging and enlightening. I'm not an Ivy-Grad but I have 3.5 from prestigious state school with mild deflation and a 176. Although I'm not an URM, I have similar goals to OP, albeit with completely different softs. I live near SV too and was directly involved with the formation and early operation of a start-up. Unfortunately, like many start-ups, it only lasted past the first round of capital infusion. That sucked. A lot of legal issues for our lawyer to solve though and he was certainly well compensated.

It made me happy to feel that I'm in a very similar dilemma to a Princeton grad.

Not sure how the dude with a 3.3 and 173 pulled a full tuition plus darrow from Michigan(maybe some crazy URM thing?) but I wouldn't bet on that type of unicorn scholly. Like GState, I'm thinking about Columbia vs. $$$ at lower T-14. I would love the Columbia signaling and it would mean a lot for me to go to such a prestigious school as I come from an uneducated and poor family. But, I also don't want to box myself into law. 80 weeks for years on end sounds horrible and if I'm $200,000 in debt and forced to keep doing it or ruin my life, I wouldn't be able to cope. Minimizing the debt by EDing to NU or hoping for Duke, Cornell, or Michigan $$$ might be my best bet to give myself the freedom and flexibility in case I don't want big-law. And to be honest, I don't, but my goal is to give my family $2,000 a month once I get my first job. If I truly hate it, I'd be fine working as a small-time prosecutor or solo-practioner in the pacific northwest with minimal debt and more flexible hours to travel, read, and engage in things I enjoy.

Like another poster mentioned, I don't have family to fall back on so since the start-up failed I've been pretty phobic to start-up culture. I refuse to even watch Silicon Valley because it's triggering lol. Sad stuff. For me, it's substitute teaching or some other lame thing I hate for peanuts, applying for some sales position in SV(I suck at math and don't know coding, although I guess I could learn Python or something), or big-law.

[jnwa]

Consensus view here is: don't go.

In terms of alternatives, few have been proposed. The one recommendation is to speak to career services, but in terns of educational attainment, so far people are saying to do nothing.

Unsure how wise it is to stuck with a bachelors degree in politics only...

Your politics degree has already gotten you a better job than99% of legal jobs. I don't think the whole useless liberal arts degree paradigm applies to you.

you're exaggerating the quality and significance of an entry level analyst job. it's not better than 99% of legal jobs. and it's far from a certain prospect after the contract is up (no job security). I've never really understood the TLS hard-on for finance. It's a good job out of college but it has basically all the downsides of biglaw with even less staying power and a far less established route to the top. I'm sure OP also has some friends from college that are struggling. But yes, his degree is far from useless.

I don't fully understanding your underlying motivations, OP. If you want to have your own law practice and provide a service to clients, then by all means, go to law school! Just keep your debt low so your opportunities for entrepreneurship won't be as limited. If you really just think of the law practice as a means to break into something else or for a high salary, then I agree with these other posters that law school is misguided for you, since its NOT the most lucrative option NOR the most flexible.

If you are interested in politics and policy--I'm a TPM/politico/economist junkie as well--you could consider getting an MPA degree after a few more years in finance/on the hill, but I don't think it's really necessary.

So as someone who did the entry level analyst job yes many of you on here are overestimating the job security and quality. That aside,

1. The point made earlier about meeting Young the lawyers who did about two years at a big firm before starting their own and giving legal advisory service to start ups I found to be most interesting this is probably exactly what I would like to do. Again, not actually running their company, but providing advisory service. Clearly not something that can be done without a JD, no?

2. Relatedly, the topic of debt. Clearly starting your own firm would be much easier with little debt from law school . However, if you want the prestige of a big name like a Columbia or Berkeley, you'll have to pay up and get into loads of debt. The only way to escape with little debt is have the grades for a Berkeley or Columbia but leverage them into a scholarship at a UVA or Michigan for instance. Would you advise doing this in order to minimize debt ? Specifically, for someone like me who wants to go to the west coast and advise start up companies, does it make sense to go to a UVA or Duke Michigan (even if it could be a full scholarship or very close to it) and miss out on being in law School in the Bay Area (Berkeley) or give up a good network (Columbia)?

Thanks so much for all your posts. Very encouraging and enlightening. I'm not an Ivy-Grad but I have 3.5 from prestigious state school with mild deflation and a 176. Although I'm not an URM, I have similar goals to OP, albeit with completely different softs. I live near SV too and was directly involved with the formation and early operation of a start-up. Unfortunately, like many start-ups, it only lasted past the first round of capital infusion. That sucked. A lot of legal issues for our lawyer to solve though and he was certainly well compensated.

It made me happy to feel that I'm in a very similar dilemma to a Princeton grad.

Not sure how the dude with a 3.3 and 173 pulled a full tuition plus darrow from Michigan(maybe some crazy URM thing?) but I wouldn't bet on that type of unicorn scholly. Like GState, I'm thinking about Columbia vs. $$$ at lower T-14. I would love the Columbia signaling and it would mean a lot for me to go to such a prestigious school as I come from an uneducated and poor family. But, I also don't want to box myself into law. 80 weeks for years on end sounds horrible and if I'm $200,000 in debt and forced to keep doing it or ruin my life, I wouldn't be able to cope. Minimizing the debt by EDing to NU or hoping for Duke, Cornell, or Michigan $$$ might be my best bet to give myself the freedom and flexibility in case I don't want big-law. And to be honest, I don't, but my goal is to give my family $2,000 a month once I get my first job. If I truly hate it, I'd be fine working as a small-time prosecutor or solo-practioner in the pacific northwest with minimal debt and more flexible hours to travel, read, and engage in things I enjoy.

Like another poster mentioned, I don't have family to fall back on so since the start-up failed I've been pretty phobic to start-up culture. I refuse to even watch Silicon Valley because it's triggering lol. Sad stuff. For me, it's substitute teaching or some other lame thing I hate for peanuts, applying for some sales position in SV(I suck at math and don't know coding, although I guess I could learn Python or something), or big-law.

Bolded is me ...but i dont think its that unexpected, URM thing definitely played a large part but OP is African Canadian as i am a better GPA and much better softs so i dont think its that unlikely tbh. Im a pretty unremarkeable k-jd.