Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

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Clearly
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby Clearly » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:15 am

1) Take LSAT - Your old score isn't valid anymore anyway, and it sounds like you can do better. Get 172+
2) Apply very broadly - Don't just target top schools.
3) Continue researching this career choice, figure out where people are hired from, how much they make etc. You may find the money isn't enough for you, or at least isn't enough to service your debt. Not saying don't go, just don't go until you know what it'll return for you. Very few people here will have had the experience you seek, and so we can't opine much about that. However, when it comes to what schools you'll actually get in to, we all know what we're talking about. Your grad GPA is great, but unfortunately doesn't mean all that much for LS admissions. It's a solid soft factor and will help, but for LS purposes your undergrad GPA is what really matters. The LSAT is everything. You'll get good options (albeit expensive ones) if you crush the LSAT, and 0 options if you don't.

The T is actually used two different ways. T1 T2 T3 (or tt etc) refer to tiers like in business school rankings, but T13/14 refers to "Top" 13 or 14 schools. The abstract number is because that's where job output starts to seriously decline. You'll hear a lot of people refer to T13 instead of 14 because they consider Georgetown to be the starting point for that drop off.

Good luck

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:09 am

Lawyerrr wrote:You seem to know exactly what you're doing. I would trust yourself over a bunch of anonymous people on a website, especially ones who write nasty things. Though some people on here are really helpful, a lot just like to argue. Before law school (about six years ago), I read this website a lot for advice. Then I went to law school, saw who was actually posting on here, and realized I'd never take advice from them in a million years. So take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Good luck, man.
Strangely Appealing wrote:
There need to be more good minority lawyers. I've met my share of minority lawyers who prey on their own people more than helping them.


Yeah, because white lawyers don't do that. What the fuck's the matter with you?

What specific advice do you take issue with or seen that is incorrect?

I think what you're doing here is potentially really harmful and honestly you should be ashamed. You're trying to come off as this really authoritative source of knowledge but then you're telling people with low numbers that they can get into some of the most selective schools in the country and, even worse, that things like 1L SAs are guaranteed. That could be really damaging and I think it's reprehensible that you would do that. Real lives are at stake here, not just the OP but also lurkers who read TLS.

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BizBro
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BizBro » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:48 am

BigZuck wrote:
Lawyerrr wrote:You seem to know exactly what you're doing. I would trust yourself over a bunch of anonymous people on a website, especially ones who write nasty things. Though some people on here are really helpful, a lot just like to argue. Before law school (about six years ago), I read this website a lot for advice. Then I went to law school, saw who was actually posting on here, and realized I'd never take advice from them in a million years. So take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Good luck, man.
Strangely Appealing wrote:
There need to be more good minority lawyers. I've met my share of minority lawyers who prey on their own people more than helping them.


Yeah, because white lawyers don't do that. What the fuck's the matter with you?

What specific advice do you take issue with or seen that is incorrect?

I think what you're doing here is potentially really harmful and honestly you should be ashamed. You're trying to come off as this really authoritative source of knowledge but then you're telling people with low numbers that they can get into some of the most selective schools in the country and, even worse, that things like 1L SAs are guaranteed. That could be really damaging and I think it's reprehensible that you would do that. Real lives are at stake here, not just the OP but also lurkers who read TLS.


Agreed. 1L SA for a non URM guaranteed? That's the silliest thing I've heard. Firms don't give a shit about your prior work experience if you don't have top grades for 1L SA. Note, however, that with even median grades or below median at t14 you'll have a pretty solid shot at big law for 2L OCI.

qiuyidio
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby qiuyidio » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:06 pm

Thanks!
Last edited by qiuyidio on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

qiuyidio
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby qiuyidio » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:08 pm

Thanks!
Last edited by qiuyidio on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

juzam_djinn
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby juzam_djinn » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:24 pm

qiuyidio wrote:
Agreed. 1L SA for a non URM guaranteed? That's the silliest thing I've heard. Firms don't give a shit about your prior work experience if you don't have top grades for 1L SA. Note, however, that with even median grades or below median at t14 you'll have a pretty solid shot at big law for 2L OCI.


Are you referring to undergrad grades or law school grades?


1L SA is entirely dependent on 1L fall grades. 2L OCI will be entirely dependent on overall 1L grades.

Lawyerrr
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby Lawyerrr » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:46 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Lawyerrr wrote:You seem to know exactly what you're doing. I would trust yourself over a bunch of anonymous people on a website, especially ones who write nasty things. Though some people on here are really helpful, a lot just like to argue. Before law school (about six years ago), I read this website a lot for advice. Then I went to law school, saw who was actually posting on here, and realized I'd never take advice from them in a million years. So take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Good luck, man.
Strangely Appealing wrote:
There need to be more good minority lawyers. I've met my share of minority lawyers who prey on their own people more than helping them.


Yeah, because white lawyers don't do that. What the fuck's the matter with you?

What specific advice do you take issue with or seen that is incorrect?

I think what you're doing here is potentially really harmful and honestly you should be ashamed. You're trying to come off as this really authoritative source of knowledge but then you're telling people with low numbers that they can get into some of the most selective schools in the country and, even worse, that things like 1L SAs are guaranteed. That could be really damaging and I think it's reprehensible that you would do that. Real lives are at stake here, not just the OP but also lurkers who read TLS.


Wow, some strong words there.

I'm saying what I know. I'm a part of the corporate recruiting process for my firm, which (for perspective) is typically in the top handful of firms of the M&A League Tables. When we look for a 1L SA candidates, we look for either (1) very good grades from a top school or (2) very good work experience (e.g., consulting for McK, Bain, or BCG or BB banking). An MBA + McKinsey would put OP in the latter category. In fact, his background is significantly better than what we'd consider very good.

I'm by no means trying to claim that a 1L SA is guaranteed for everyone. But for the OP, he would have a very good shot at my firm for a 1L SA (and, because we're very selective, probably a lot of other firms). I question the people who say the only way to get a 1L SA at a top firm is by having good grades--I highly doubt they are currently working for a top firm (more likely, they're in law school or just took the LSAT). None of this really matters anyway because OP wants to do immigration law.

Not sure how telling the truth is "reprehensible."

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:30 pm

I think it's reprehensible because it's misleading/way overstating the ease of all this. But your firm probably is a special snowflake in terms of its requirements so no arguments from me there.

Your characterization of the admissions process is dead wrong though. Please don't go around telling 3.1/165s that they'll get into a majority of the top schools in the country and be set once they are there. At best that's just out of touch boomerism. But I think it can potentially be a lot more damaging than that.

Your whole schtick since you've been spawned is basically this:

(cracks knuckles)

(puts hands behind head)

(kicks feet up on desk)

"Look kid, you gonna listen to these neckbeards? Half of them probably don't even know what probable cause is yet. I wear a fucking suit every day. You hear that? EVERY. FUCKING. DAY. Stick with me kid and you can't go wrong."

I mean, you already grossly mischaracterized the admissions process and his chances at top schools from your first post in this thread. And now he's supposed to believe that just so long as he gets there he'll get a top job at a top firm? You're just going to throw 30K at him for showing up and not totally shitting the bed his fall semester? I mean, I guess. Maybe. I don't doubt that his work experience will give him a huge leg up on the competition and if he goes to a school like Columbia then of course he'll get some sort of big law job out of OCI as long as he doesn't barf all over himself/his interviewers. But to suggest that he doesn't need to retake the LSAT now and that he's an auto-lock for a 1L SA at a firm with sweet league tables? I think that's pretty messed up.

But seriously though, in 6 months please share the name of your firm so we can get one of the new crop of neckbeards an easy 1L SA.

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:31 pm

qiuyidio wrote:BigZuck, you've commented a lot on this thread and I do appreciate that. Ignoring what everyone else said then, what schools DO I have a chance at?

I don't see why http://www.mylsn.info wouldn't be the best assessment of your chances. I'd think your cycle would align closely with that.

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Helioze
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby Helioze » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Clearly wrote:1) Take LSAT - Your old score isn't valid anymore anyway, and it sounds like you can do better. Get 172+
2) Apply very broadly - Don't just target top schools.
3) Continue researching this career choice, figure out where people are hired from, how much they make etc. You may find the money isn't enough for you, or at least isn't enough to service your debt. Not saying don't go, just don't go until you know what it'll return for you. Very few people here will have had the experience you seek, and so we can't opine much about that. However, when it comes to what schools you'll actually get in to, we all know what we're talking about. Your grad GPA is great, but unfortunately doesn't mean all that much for LS admissions. It's a solid soft factor and will help, but for LS purposes your undergrad GPA is what really matters. The LSAT is everything. You'll get good options (albeit expensive ones) if you crush the LSAT, and 0 options if you don't.

The T is actually used two different ways. T1 T2 T3 (or tt etc) refer to tiers like in business school rankings, but T13/14 refers to "Top" 13 or 14 schools. The abstract number is because that's where job output starts to seriously decline. You'll hear a lot of people refer to T13 instead of 14 because they consider Georgetown to be the starting point for that drop off.

Good luck




Dude said he can pay cash so debt is not an issue


OP I'm really curious to see how you'll do, just so we can have some real evidence about whether your background is sufficient to counterbalance your 3.1

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bjsesq
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby bjsesq » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:49 pm

Why go to law school? I just don't get it. You're a McKinsey alum and you have shit numbers.

qiuyidio
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby qiuyidio » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:50 pm

Thanks!
Last edited by qiuyidio on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bjsesq
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby bjsesq » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:55 pm

qiuyidio wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Why go to law school? I just don't get it. You're a McKinsey alum and you have shit numbers.


Did you read my post?

I did. While your goals are noble, there is no guarantee that you'll get it, especially with the schools you are in range for. I just don't get it, dude. Even if you hate consulting, the doors in the business world the McKinsey names opens for you are damn impressive. You're not taking a step back here, you're hop-scotching backwards over the back of a brontosaurus.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:36 pm

Whenever people have non-traditional aspirations for a law degree, I think the best advice is to work backwards.

You want to work in immigrant's rights. You've worked with lawyers in the field in the past. This is good. Get in touch with them and ask them questions about how, exactly, they got to where they are. Some public interest (PI) organizations care about grades and prestige. Unfortunately, your uGPA probably means you can't plan on working for an organization like ACLU, as absurd as that sounds. Others will care more about personality and demonstrated commitment to the cause. For these organizations, you're better off forgetting about law school prestige and going to a school in the region they do their work in for as cheap as possible. It's impossible for anyone to give you any real advice, because all we know is that you want to do immigrant stuff. Reverse engineer your course.

At the end of the day, I agree with BJ. You're taking a giant step back if you go to law school. There are plenty of ways to work for the public interest that don't involve having a JD. Many NGOs will appreciate the skills you have developed in consulting. If you really care about making a difference, that's a much more direct and certain path to take than law school.

kartelite
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby kartelite » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:23 pm

Why didn't you apply to a joint JD/MBA program (Northwestern may have been an option, or you could have applied to the 4-year program with CLS as a first-year at CBS)? Even with a 180, your grades pretty much shut you out from the top schools, especially if you're hoping for financial aid. To me, the fact that you're only now considering law school when you should have been thinking about this two years ago makes it seem a bit whimsical. I left a career in finance to come to law school at the age you're anticipating, but I wouldn't have done it without 1) also getting into the school's MBA program, which is a moot point for you, and 2) getting serious financial aid.

If you're serious, come back in 2 years, take the LSAT, and only if you get your score over 170 should you even begin to entertain law school. In that case, Northwestern's 2-year program may be your best bet.

Lawyerrr
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby Lawyerrr » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:33 pm

BigZuck wrote:I think it's reprehensible because it's misleading/way overstating the ease of all this. But your firm probably is a special snowflake in terms of its requirements so no arguments from me there.

Your characterization of the admissions process is dead wrong though. Please don't go around telling 3.1/165s that they'll get into a majority of the top schools in the country and be set once they are there. At best that's just out of touch boomerism. But I think it can potentially be a lot more damaging than that.

Your whole schtick since you've been spawned is basically this:

(cracks knuckles)

(puts hands behind head)

(kicks feet up on desk)

"Look kid, you gonna listen to these neckbeards? Half of them probably don't even know what probable cause is yet. I wear a fucking suit every day. You hear that? EVERY. FUCKING. DAY. Stick with me kid and you can't go wrong."

I mean, you already grossly mischaracterized the admissions process and his chances at top schools from your first post in this thread. And now he's supposed to believe that just so long as he gets there he'll get a top job at a top firm? You're just going to throw 30K at him for showing up and not totally shitting the bed his fall semester? I mean, I guess. Maybe. I don't doubt that his work experience will give him a huge leg up on the competition and if he goes to a school like Columbia then of course he'll get some sort of big law job out of OCI as long as he doesn't barf all over himself/his interviewers. But to suggest that he doesn't need to retake the LSAT now and that he's an auto-lock for a 1L SA at a firm with sweet league tables? I think that's pretty messed up.

But seriously though, in 6 months please share the name of your firm so we can get one of the new crop of neckbeards an easy 1L SA.


Haha, "neckbeards," never heard that before. I'm really not one to get into some huge argument on the Internet. If you or you know someone who has an MBA from a top school and worked in banking for GS, MS, JPM, etc. or was a consultant for MBB, you (or your friend) should apply for a 1L SA to Skadden, S&C, DPW, or STB. I work for one of those. I'm guessing people in this position would already be applying to these firms though.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby UnicornHunter » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:43 pm

Lawyerrr wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I think it's reprehensible because it's misleading/way overstating the ease of all this. But your firm probably is a special snowflake in terms of its requirements so no arguments from me there.

Your characterization of the admissions process is dead wrong though. Please don't go around telling 3.1/165s that they'll get into a majority of the top schools in the country and be set once they are there. At best that's just out of touch boomerism. But I think it can potentially be a lot more damaging than that.

Your whole schtick since you've been spawned is basically this:

(cracks knuckles)

(puts hands behind head)

(kicks feet up on desk)

"Look kid, you gonna listen to these neckbeards? Half of them probably don't even know what probable cause is yet. I wear a fucking suit every day. You hear that? EVERY. FUCKING. DAY. Stick with me kid and you can't go wrong."

I mean, you already grossly mischaracterized the admissions process and his chances at top schools from your first post in this thread. And now he's supposed to believe that just so long as he gets there he'll get a top job at a top firm? You're just going to throw 30K at him for showing up and not totally shitting the bed his fall semester? I mean, I guess. Maybe. I don't doubt that his work experience will give him a huge leg up on the competition and if he goes to a school like Columbia then of course he'll get some sort of big law job out of OCI as long as he doesn't barf all over himself/his interviewers. But to suggest that he doesn't need to retake the LSAT now and that he's an auto-lock for a 1L SA at a firm with sweet league tables? I think that's pretty messed up.

But seriously though, in 6 months please share the name of your firm so we can get one of the new crop of neckbeards an easy 1L SA.


Haha, "neckbeards," never heard that before. I'm really not one to get into some huge argument on the Internet. If you or you know someone who has an MBA from a top school and worked in banking for GS, MS, JPM, etc. or was a consultant for MBB, you (or your friend) should apply for a 1L SA to Skadden, S&C, DPW, or STB. I work for one of those. I'm guessing people in this position would already be applying to these firms though.


Are we just assuming that OP's going to forget why he wanted to go to law school by October of his 1l year? Otherwise, this whole thing seems kind of besides the point.

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pamphleteer
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby pamphleteer » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:27 pm

Getting back on topic...

OP, honestly I think your best option might be Northwestern's two-year accelerated JD program. They accept GMAT scores in lieu of the LSAT so you wouldn't have to retake (not that that should be a deciding factor but it's a nice added bonus) and your score would make you very competitive, they'll weigh your (impressive) work experience more heavily than any other T14 school, they like splitters (which your GMAT score qualifies you as in this context) and, let's face it, your uGPA makes you an auto-ding at HYS, Chicago and probably Columbia regardless of your LSAT score. There aren't really any schools outside of those five that have placement rates significantly better than Northwestern's. You'd also be able to re-enter the workforce in one fewer year. You seem like a perfect candidate for this.

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:38 pm

I don't know if AJD makes sense for people that don't want to do the big law drone thing (and he said he doesn't). I'd think state flagship for cheap would be the way to go.

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pamphleteer
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby pamphleteer » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:47 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't know if AJD makes sense for people that don't want to do the big law drone thing (and he said he doesn't). I'd think state flagship for cheap would be the way to go.


I mean...I believe him that he wants to advocate for immigrants' rights more than I would an average 0L saying that stuff since he's walking away from a lucrative consulting career to go to law school for that purpose. It still seems like the sort of thing that goes by the wayside once you realize those jobs don't really exist in the sense that OP is probably perceiving them at which point the optionality in employment prospects provided by a T14 would come in handy. If he's truly 100% committed to working for a small immigration defense firm for shit pay (I don't know how you could know this without some sort of experience at one of those firms) that's great and he should take the full ride at a state flagship. If not, though, he could change his mind partway through law school and have thrown away a lucrative (if not entirely fulfilling) career in business for nothing. At least from NU he could just go to a firm in that scenario.

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:55 pm

Lawyerrr wrote:Haha, "neckbeards," never heard that before. I'm really not one to get into some huge argument on the Internet. If you or you know someone who has an MBA from a top school and worked in banking for GS, MS, JPM, etc. or was a consultant for MBB, you (or your friend) should apply for a 1L SA to Skadden, S&C, DPW, or STB. I work for one of those. I'm guessing people in this position would already be applying to these firms though.

(puts on shades)

"I'm outta here, I don't have time for this. Those billables ain't gonna bill themselves.

Look kid, you ever want a job at Skadden you know where to find me"

(flings business card in his face)

BigZuck
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:59 pm

pamphleteer wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I don't know if AJD makes sense for people that don't want to do the big law drone thing (and he said he doesn't). I'd think state flagship for cheap would be the way to go.


I mean...I believe him that he wants to advocate for immigrants' rights more than I would an average 0L saying that stuff since he's walking away from a lucrative consulting career to go to law school for that purpose. It still seems like the sort of thing that goes by the wayside once you realize those jobs don't really exist in the sense that OP is probably perceiving them at which point the optionality in employment prospects provided by a T14 would come in handy. If he's truly 100% committed to working for a small immigration defense firm for shit pay (I don't know how you could know this without some sort of experience at one of those firms) that's great and he should take the full ride at a state flagship. If not, though, he could change his mind partway through law school and have thrown away a lucrative (if not entirely fulfilling) career in business for nothing. At least from NU he could just go to a firm in that scenario.

Fair enough. I hope he is 100% committed. It would be kinda sad if he's just in pretty much the same place minus 200K and 2 years of lost wages. But maybe that is what he should do if he can't get back to where he was after before law school after attending a regional school and realizing the job he wants isn't what the thought it was/doesn't exist.

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Hikikomorist
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby Hikikomorist » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:35 pm

NonTradLawHopeful wrote:Everyone saying the low GPA would hurt are not paying attention to the high premium schools have put on splitters this cycle.


How I wish this were so.

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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby NonTradLawHopeful » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:52 am

Hikkomorist wrote:
NonTradLawHopeful wrote:Everyone saying the low GPA would hurt are not paying attention to the high premium schools have put on splitters this cycle.


How I wish this were so.


It is so. OP would need to retake for 170+, but if he did, he would be competitive for 7-14 even with the 3.1.

rdawkins28
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Re: Post Ivy MBA Law School Hopeful

Postby rdawkins28 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:40 am

Strangely Appealing wrote:
There need to be more good minority lawyers. I've met my share of minority lawyers who prey on their own people more than helping them.


Yeah, because white lawyers don't do that. What the fuck's the matter with you?


Where do I say white lawyers don't do that? There's a good number of Russian and Eastern European immigrants in our city. They have the same problem. I'm talking about minorities and immigration lawyers which is what OP was talking about. The problem of coming to the US not knowing the law and the language and having to rely on someone who speak the same language. These immigrants tend to get exploited by lawyers, car salespeople, pimps, employers, etc of their own kind, homeland, ethnicity, and the like.




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