165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Not sure where your numbers will get you? Dying to know where you stand? Come have your palms read by your fellow posters!
User avatar
Angstrom
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:12 pm

165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Angstrom » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:24 pm

I'll probably retake the LSAT one more time, but I have a 165 in the bag so let's go with that.

My undergrad GPA is 2.99 from Northwestern with a major in computer engineering and minor in economics. It's a less than ideal GPA but it was a difficult course load at a good school. Does that make any difference?

I have a master's in electrical engineering from a state institution with a 4.0 GPA. Will that count for anything?

I believe I have a few unique things going for me. I passed the Principles and Practice of Engineering Exam and have earned licensure as a Professional Engineer (PE). I want to study IP law and I think that my PE license, coupled with several years of work experience as an engineer, will give me very strong credentials in that field.

My goal isn't to attend a T14 school, although I'd like to get accepted to one for scholarship negotiations. Right now, my goal is to attend U of Iowa with as much tuition covered as possible. I currently live in Iowa and would like to continue working in my current job (which will accommodate a school schedule) while I attend law school.

So, what are my chances, both at Iowa and at any T14 school? Do I have a shot at any money? Will my PE license and work experience count for anything? If I retake the LSAT one more time, what type of score do I need?

Thanks in advance.

User avatar
downbeat14
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:27 pm

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:33 pm

Your best shot at the t14 is probably NU, regardless of the fact you went there. After plugging in some numbers on mylsn, it seems like your chances of both admission and a scholarship at NU are better than your chances of those at Iowa if you get a high lsat score. Iowa could still end up being cheaper due to lower COA.

User avatar
Angstrom
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Angstrom » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:02 pm

downbeat14 wrote:
Angstrom wrote:I'll probably retake the LSAT one more time, but I have a 165 in the bag so let's go with that.


Didn't read the rest of you questions because nothing else matters until you get a higher LSAT.


If you can't take 30 seconds to read my questions, then what is your advice worth? LSAT of 165 is 91st percentile and is above Iowa's median. So, for Iowa, what type of shape am I in?

User avatar
Ron Don Volante
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:15 pm

Iowa only makes sense for limited purposes. What do you want to do after iowa? Even if you want iowa and fall into the circumstances that make iowa defensible, you're going to have to retake, because even if you get in with those numbers, you're not going to get in at a price where it's worth attending.

User avatar
Angstrom
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Angstrom » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:19 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa only makes sense for limited purposes. What do you want to do after iowa? Even if you want iowa and fall into the circumstances that make iowa defensible, you're going to have to retake, because even if you get in with those numbers, you're not going to get in at a price where it's worth attending.


I will be selling my technical expertise. When I hand my business card to a potential client, he will see a PE next to my J.D. and will know that I speak his language. That's something that even most T14 IP lawyers won't be able to offer. This will transcend my "mere" Iowa degree (and Iowa is a good, top 30 school nonetheless). I believe I have a very specialized skillset that few other lawyers can offer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, if there's any school that would tempt me to sell my house, quit my engineering job, and relocate to attend, it would be Georgetown because of its famous night course. This would allow me to take on a new engineering job while attending school. So, if you wish, tell me what type of LSAT score I would need to have a chance at Georgetown, but I would also appreciate an honest assessment to the other questions I asked and whether or not they have any influence on admissions.

Thanks in advance.

bl1nds1ght
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby bl1nds1ght » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Angstrom wrote:
downbeat14 wrote:
Angstrom wrote:I'll probably retake the LSAT one more time, but I have a 165 in the bag so let's go with that.


Didn't read the rest of you questions because nothing else matters until you get a higher LSAT.


If you can't take 30 seconds to read my questions, then what is your advice worth? LSAT of 165 is 91st percentile and is above Iowa's median. So, for Iowa, what type of shape am I in?

The percentile doesn't matter. The score only matters in relation to schools' medians. Schools care a lot about both LSAT and GPA (some favor one over the other, for instance west coast schools loooove GPAs for some reason) and unfortunately, Iowa doesn't like sub-3.0 GPAs even when paired with a much higher LSAT. It's definitely worthwhile to apply to IA and see what what happens, but keep in mind that the job prospects out of IA and NU are totally different.

Compare:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2013/
with:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... employers/

We're not saying that you can't have a good career out of Iowa, but you'll need to temper your expectations regarding geographic location a bit. NU has far superior placement power to both coasts, whereas IA will land you around the Midwest (with some exceptions).

Additionally, your shot at a job that will allow you service large law school tuition debt will be much more limited out of IA than it would be from NU. Your background should help quite a bit come OCI, but just look at the statistics. A much greater number of larger firms come to NU's OCI than Iowa's to begin with, so you'll have an uphill battle right out of the gate.

NU's median is 168, for reference, and from what I've seen, they are more splitter-friendly than Iowa. So honestly, your best bet is to retake for a 170+, unless you're happy with your shot from Iowa with debt.

User avatar
Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Dog » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:37 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa only makes sense for limited purposes. What do you want to do after iowa? Even if you want iowa and fall into the circumstances that make iowa defensible, you're going to have to retake, because even if you get in with those numbers, you're not going to get in at a price where it's worth attending.


I will be selling my technical expertise. When I hand my business card to a potential client, he will see a PE next to my J.D. and will know that I speak his language. That's something that even most T14 IP lawyers won't be able to offer. This will transcend my "mere" Iowa degree (and Iowa is a good, top 30 school nonetheless). I believe I have a very specialized skillset that few other lawyers can offer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, if there's any school that would tempt me to sell my house, quit my engineering job, and relocate to attend, it would be Georgetown because of its famous night course. This would allow me to take on a new engineering job while attending school. So, if you wish, tell me what type of LSAT score I would need to have a chance at Georgetown, but I would also appreciate an honest assessment to the other questions I asked and whether or not they have any influence on admissions.

Thanks in advance.


It's difficult to assess your current chances at Iowa, but LSN seems to suggest they aren't fantastic. That is with a very small sample size. If you want to get into Georgetown, retake for a 168+ and your odds look decent. Anything less, not so much.

User avatar
Ron Don Volante
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:07 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Ron Don Volante wrote:Iowa only makes sense for limited purposes. What do you want to do after iowa? Even if you want iowa and fall into the circumstances that make iowa defensible, you're going to have to retake, because even if you get in with those numbers, you're not going to get in at a price where it's worth attending.


I will be selling my technical expertise. When I hand my business card to a potential client, he will see a PE next to my J.D. and will know that I speak his language. That's something that even most T14 IP lawyers won't be able to offer. This will transcend my "mere" Iowa degree (and Iowa is a good, top 30 school nonetheless). I believe I have a very specialized skillset that few other lawyers can offer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Whatever you say, dude.
Angstrom wrote:Now, if there's any school that would tempt me to sell my house, quit my engineering job, and relocate to attend, it would be Georgetown because of its famous night course. This would allow me to take on a new engineering job while attending school. So, if you wish, tell me what type of LSAT score I would need to have a chance at Georgetown, but I would also appreciate an honest assessment to the other questions I asked and whether or not they have any influence on admissions.

Thanks in advance.

The masters degree won't matter, at all, for admissions.

I've often read that IP law is going to be in state of serious flux in the next decade or so, but I don't profess to know much about the practice. This is not the forum to get that kind of commentary, go to like Ask A Law Student. Not going to affect admissions either way, for a case like yours.

You'd have a shot at Northwestern if you add like five points to your LSAT. Samesies with GTown. Are either worth the price that you'd have to pay if admitted with those stats? Probably not.

If you can keep your debt low and intend to stay in Iowa after graduation, Iowa would probably be fine for you. But if you're making this career change for the money, you're dreaming and/or haven't done much research on realistic legal careers, relative to what you're probably at now.

Also, Iowa is not going to care that you got into a T14, in all likelihood. 1) You're not going to be able to produce a scholarship offer from a T14 that will make them tremble, and 2) they know they have a serious advantage in nabbing someone in your situation (a presumably entrenched professional living in the immediate area). They're probably going to call your bluff that you're going to sell your house, move to DC, and go in 300K debt to get a GTTTown JD.

User avatar
Angstrom
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Angstrom » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:08 pm

bl1nds1ght wrote:Additionally, your shot at a job that will allow you service large law school tuition debt will be much more limited out of IA than it would be from NU.


My current job already allows me to service law school tuition debt. My employer offers tuition reimbursement of $15,000 a year. Iowa's tuition is one of the lowest in the top 30 at $28,047, and between my tuition reimbursement and my engineer's salary I'm not terribly worried about the debt. That being said, I would love some scholarship money to sweeten the deal further.

I will be taking the LSAT one more time and I will be applying to Northwestern, of course, but Iowa is the leader for me right now for the reasons I've stated (it would take serious money to change my mind). I can't imagine that I'd have a better shot at Northwestern than Iowa; are you guys sure about that?

dlawrence
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby dlawrence » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:49 pm

My employer offers tuition reimbursement of $15,000 a year.


The consensus seems to be that working while going to law schools is an unconditionally bad idea, but even if you wanted to do that, the ABA restricts all 1L's to a maximum of 20 hours a week. I can't speak for your employer, but most pro-rate reimbursement programs to the number of hours worked. So, assuming it's even possible to go down to 20 hours in your job, you would probably not be eligible for the full amount. I would caution you to double-check the terms of your employers program before assuming that a reimbursement of $15,000 is feasible. If you were talking about part-time law school, that would be a different situation, but I don't think Iowa has a part-time program.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11953
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:31 am

Angstrom wrote:I can't imagine that I'd have a better shot at Northwestern than Iowa; are you guys sure about that?

Nobody said that. You would 100% have to retake for Northwestern. Northwestern would open more doors but it seems like you're pretty set on attending Iowa given your ties to the state. Plus the Northwestern debt would put you under a lot of stress to get a biglaw job. Iowa is surely more affordable and you have the STEM background to possibly excel.

There's only one data point on mylsn, but that person was admitted with a 164/~3.1 and received $100k in scholarships. Obviously don't put too much stock in this since it's the smallest possible sample.

Life2good893
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Life2good893 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:36 am

For IP George Washington is one of the best. You should consider it. If you could raise the LSAT up a little bit, you'd be more competitive there.

Between a 169-171, 100% of people who applied (granted only 8 data points) were admitted around your GPA range. If you early decision to GW, they give you a full ride if accepted.

That could be good for you. An engineering degree plus a degree in IP law is a great combination.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11953
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:54 am

Life2good893 wrote:Between a 169-171, 100% of people who applied (granted only 8 data points) were admitted around your GPA range. If you early decision to GW, they give you a full ride if accepted.

George Washington isn't going to give a full ride to someone with such a low GPA.

Life2good893
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Life2good893 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:58 am

Dirigo wrote:
Life2good893 wrote:Between a 169-171, 100% of people who applied (granted only 8 data points) were admitted around your GPA range. If you early decision to GW, they give you a full ride if accepted.

George Washington isn't going to give a full ride to someone with such a low GPA.


It doesn't hurt to try. Worst comes to worst he/she is pushed out to the regular decision pool and has demonstrated interest in the school. Can't hurt for scholarships.

If GW is guaranteed (via ED) a high LSAT scorer maybe they can pad their numbers with a much less rare high GPA, low LSAT scorer. He/she is a unique case at any rate.

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11953
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:09 am

Life2good893 wrote:If GW is guaranteed (via ED) a high LSAT scorer maybe they can pad their numbers with a much less rare high GPA, low LSAT scorer.

Sorry but they're not going to give a full-ride for someone with a low GPA. That's not the point of GWU/NW/BU/WUSTL providing full tuition scholarships to applicants accepted via ED. It's instead a strategy for snatching up qualified student that will likely have much better options. Someone with such a low GPA is unlikely to have much better options, even if he raised his LSAT. Therefore, there is no incentive for GWU to pay top dollar to secure his place in the class.
Life2good893 wrote:He/she is a unique case at any rate.

Not really. Low GPA. Mediocre LSAT. Engineers aren't special snowflakes.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4166
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Clearly » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:10 am

downbeat14 wrote:
Angstrom wrote:I'll probably retake the LSAT one more time, but I have a 165 in the bag so let's go with that.


Didn't read the rest of you questions because nothing else matters until you get a higher LSAT. Your UGPA is all that counts, and with that low of a GPA you are going to need to be in the 170s to have good outcomes. If I were you I wouldn't even come on this site again until after taking the June LSAT and getting your score back. Literally none of the other stuff will matter at all if you just put the work in to crush the test.

Are you this abrasive in real life? I really don't get it. I'm not even trying to be rude, you're always providing great information but doing so in such am abrasive way that people will never listen.

User avatar
Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Dog » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:10 am

Dirigo wrote:
Angstrom wrote:I can't imagine that I'd have a better shot at Northwestern than Iowa; are you guys sure about that?

Nobody said that. You would 100% have to retake for Northwestern. Northwestern would open more doors but it seems like you're pretty set on attending Iowa given your ties to the state. Plus the Northwestern debt would put you under a lot of stress to get a biglaw job. Iowa is surely more affordable and you have the STEM background to possibly excel.

There's only one data point on mylsn, but that person was admitted with a 164/~3.1 and received $100k in scholarships. Obviously don't put too much stock in this since it's the smallest possible sample.


I said something which could have been interpreted along those lines. I meant if he gets a high LSAT score (170+) it looks like his odds of admission/$$$ could be better at Northwestern than they are at Iowa. Is it true? Who knows. There is a limited number of 170+ applicants to Iowa on LSN, but a decent proportion of those that applied with a high LSAT/low GPA received a better NU outcome. It is much easier to find 170+ / low GPA applicants for NU than it is for Iowa so the sample size of cross applicants is small. Here are some profiles:

173, 2.52. Waitlisted at Iowa, waitlisted then accepted at NU:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/luukaas

174, 2.9. No money at Iowa, 60k scholarship at NU:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/woeismyugpa

172, 2.88. 45k at NU, didn't apply to Iowa:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Lsitter

171, 2.9. Waitlisted then accepted with 75k at NU:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/cdoor

User avatar
Rigo
Posts: 11953
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Rigo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:23 am

I get the whole broaden your horizons thing some people ITT are trying to tell OP, but this is going a bit far.
OP has clearly said he doesn't want to attend a T14.
OP has clearly said he wants to attend Iowa.
OP has clearly said that if he were to attend a T14, it would be Georgetown.

I get the fetish with Northwestern because OP is a splitter, but why should OP go to Northwestern and take on a lot of debt when that isn't even something OP desires?

If someone wants to scrutinize how Iowa won't allow OP to achieve his goals, then that's a fair point to debate.

wolfie_m.
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby wolfie_m. » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:44 am

.
Last edited by wolfie_m. on Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dog
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Dog » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:48 am

Dirigo wrote:I get the whole broaden your horizons thing some people ITT are trying to tell OP, but this is going a bit far.
OP has clearly said he doesn't want to attend a T14.
OP has clearly said he wants to attend Iowa.
OP has clearly said that if he were to attend a T14, it would be Georgetown.

I get the fetish with Northwestern because OP is a splitter, but why should OP go to Northwestern and take on a lot of debt when that isn't even something OP desires?

If someone wants to scrutinize how Iowa won't allow OP to achieve his goals, then that's a fair point to debate.


The OP specifically asked about his chances at both Iowa and t14s. He said it would take significant money to change his mind away from Iowa and he was particularly interested in Georgetown. He also said he would like to be admitted to a t14 for scholarship negotiation purposes. His best chances for a t14 admission are probably GULC and NU. I don't really see anyone pushing those options on him. I was simply laying out his odds with available data, based on OP's wishes. The data on Iowa is more limited.

Also, OP's language communicates that while Iowa is the current plan, he is open to other possibilities. If OP is so sure he wants Iowa and not a T14, why is GULC the school he would sell his house and quit his job to attend?

User avatar
downbeat14
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:00 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby downbeat14 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:29 am

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ron Don Volante
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby Ron Don Volante » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:14 am

To whoever said OP needs to go to GW: no. Next time you feel the need to give advice on TLS, don't.

kcdc1
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:48 am

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby kcdc1 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:29 am

Iowa isn't the worst idea in the world, and you'll probably get in -- I haven't looked at the numbers.

That said, you should be aware that patent law is moving away from software. If you're more EE than CS, or if you can credibly portray yourself as highly competent with EE inventions, you'll probably be fine. But if you're a software guy, I'd think twice before leaving CS for law. Those skills are highly compensated outside of law, and I'm not sure they're going to be so hotly in demand by the time you'd graduate.

misanthrope
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:32 pm

Re: 165 LSAT, 2.99 Undergrad GPA, looking for advice

Postby misanthrope » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:13 am

kcdc1 wrote:Iowa isn't the worst idea in the world, and you'll probably get in -- I haven't looked at the numbers.

That said, you should be aware that patent law is moving away from software. If you're more EE than CS, or if you can credibly portray yourself as highly competent with EE inventions, you'll probably be fine. But if you're a software guy, I'd think twice before leaving CS for law. Those skills are highly compensated outside of law, and I'm not sure they're going to be so hotly in demand by the time you'd graduate.



FWIW, CS isn't really distinguished from EE amongst patent firms in any meaningful way; they're also conflated by the Patent Office's technical field catalog.

Edited to delete unnecessary gaucheness (sorry kcdc1, in case you read it; it's late and I was feelin' cranky).




Return to “What are my chances?”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 2 guests