I messed up... Forum

[downbeat14]

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[downbeat14]

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[Tiago Splitter]

I wasn't specific, but I do think it's best to keep total debt-financed COA under $100k. I don't think that is excessively conservative.

I do. Just borrowing to finance living expenses will get you up around 60-70k at repayment, and any tuition at all puts you up around that 100k mark. For splitters especially these kinds of hard cut offs don't make much sense, and that's even more true for a splitter looking at California. If the options are Loyola at 90k debt, UCLA at 150 and Northwestern at 200 the choice can't possibly be Loyola.

Also your confidence in business school employment outcomes is rather shocking; if anything someone without work experience is worse off going to a middling business school over law school.

[downbeat14]

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[downbeat14]

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[mostlylost]

I understand why you think I wont be getting into the top tier schools, and you're faith on someone over the internet with a shitty gpa is understandable too, but, I am no longer looking into top tier schools. As stated earlier, I'm looking into layola/south western and, if the lsat score is something I pull off, perhaps irivine.

OP, did you read the link I posted to LSN above with the job prospects for those schools? This is a terrible idea. Irvine is not good either.

Sorry bud, I missed it. Any other suggestions? I'm still looking to remain within california but man...this is harsh.

[downbeat14]

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[Clearly]

Northwestern at 200..

Also, just to put this in perspective as to why NU at 200K is a terrible idea, LST says that the loan repayment would be (I'm estimating b/c they don't have 200 as an option for NU): $2500 per month for 10 years, or $1750 per month for 20 years. This is a total repayment of around 300K and 400K, respectively.

Do you have any idea what your return would be putting that kind of money into mutual fund or retirement account for 10-20 years?

If you contribute 10 years at $2500 per month at a 10% rate of return, that's going to yield $526,000 in your pocket rather than $300K paid to the government. And then if you don't touch it, or add to it, and let it grow for 10 more years, it's worth $1.3 million... you can imagine how this would continue.

A lot of people go in with the attitude of "whatever, I'll be able to pay it back in 10 or 20 years," but the flaw in the logic is failing to consider the return you are giving up in the long-term paying the government (plus the years of income working you give up while in school). It's just not rational in my opinion at these extreme debt levels. People are obviously going to disagree.

Clearly people have reasons for wanting to do law that go beyond purely financial considerations, but I don't think enough people actually take long-term finance into account. Yes, if you just have to be a public interest lawyer, then go. But you obviously have a higher calling here and it's not a financial consideration as much at that point.

If you don't know alternative career opportunities, you can't automatically assume people taking debt for top schools is a bad idea. By far the best option in my life was taking debt for a top school. Not everyone passes on law school and ends up in I-banking. A splitter from a shitty school or with a bad majors best chance might be NU at sticker, and that's fine. I'm not criticizing your values, in fact they're great, but not everyone has those options. I'm just asking you to tone it down because your overly-conservative debt advice could be harmful to people for whom a debt financed education is beneficial.

Also, he wouldn't even come close to NU ED, they don't just give full rides to splitters, they could get splitters WITHOUT paying them 150k.

[Clearly]

I understand why you think I wont be getting into the top tier schools, and you're faith on someone over the internet with a shitty gpa is understandable too, but, I am no longer looking into top tier schools. As stated earlier, I'm looking into layola/south western and, if the lsat score is something I pull off, perhaps irivine.

OP, did you read the link I posted to LSN above with the job prospects for those schools? This is a terrible idea. Irvine is not good either.

Sorry bud, I missed it. Any other suggestions? I'm still looking to remain within california but man...this is harsh.

Ok, well if you are being serious, then go back and look at the employment scores and median income on LST for those three schools. You really need to stare those numbers in the face before jumping into a decision like this.

I think the poster earlier recommending NU ED is right on in your situation. But that would require probably taking a year or two off to gain some more hefty work experience (obviously it will bode well that you already have some, that is a def plus), and again crushing the LSAT.

You still haven't answered my question as to why you are so confident as to our ability to score in the upper 170s. I'm very curious why you think you'll be able to do this, and trust me I hope for your sake that you can.

I saw you said you are planning to graduate this semester. Why couldn't you just withdraw your application for graduation (assuming this is allowed?), and then take some dinky comm college courses to boost, and apply for graduation next year? I have no idea if this would work, but it would certainly help your admissions and financial aid prospects if you could.

People don't have to justify what they might get on the LSAT to you. Do you not realize why pressing this kid to present evidence of his LSAT potential is fucked up? Is it likely he'll break 175? No. But if he's going to do it, he needs support, not people convincing him he can't do it. Signed, guy who broke 175 with a worse GPA.

[kcdc1]

Work a professional job for 2 years, then reevaluate. If you still want to go to law school, get a 175 on the LSAT, write a GPA addendum citing your work experience and explaining your new focus and maturity. Write a polished PS that backs up your narrative of discipline and attention to detail. You will get into Northwestern, Georgetown and lots of top 25 schools.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also, if you get a 2L SA, that should cover living expenses for 3L, no?

It didn't for me but I'm not the most frugal guy in the world.

In the hypo you suggest re: Loyola, UCLA, NU, the TCR for the vast majority of people is don't go to law school (unless of course you fall into one of the categories of rich, PI gunner, etc., or rarely you just can't fathom being happy doing anything else other than law). This is just my opinion, which is what OP should expect posting questions on an internet forum for strangers to answer.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but after "Don't go to law school" the next best choice is probably Northwestern. Or put another way: Barring exceptional circumstances the job prospects at Northwestern justify an extra 110k of debt over Loyola.

Would you agree that the b-school ranked #50 probably has better employment prospects making good money than the LS ranked #50? Do business schools publish employment percentages like on the LST reports?

B-schools do publish this info and the numbers aren't great. Your question is tough to answer without more information: For someone with solid work experience who can stay in their job, get the MBA and move up the B-school makes more sense. For someone without meaningful work experience that creates a narrative for post-B-school employment the MBA doesn't really do anything. While a law degree is a necessary credential for being a lawyer.

The other side of that coin is that because B-schools are less numbers focused they are tougher to get into for an average Joe than a top law school. You can sleep your way through college with a pretty bad GPA, do nothing else, and still get into a top law school if you just get a high LSAT. The same does not apply to business school. And most business schools don't hand out jobs on a silver platter the way top law schools do.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also, just to put this in perspective as to why NU at 200K is a terrible idea, LST says that the loan repayment would be (I'm estimating b/c they don't have 200 as an option for NU): $2500 per month for 10 years, or $1750 per month for 20 years. This is a total repayment of around 300K and 400K, respectively.

Do you have any idea what your return would be putting that kind of money into mutual fund or retirement account for 10-20 years?

If you contribute 10 years at $2500 per month at a 10% rate of return, that's going to yield $526,000 in your pocket rather than $300K paid to the government. And then if you don't touch it, or add to it, and let it grow for 10 more years, it's worth $1.3 million... you can imagine how this would continue.

I think it's great to look at these things critically and I'm glad you're doing so, but please don't ignore the substantial boost in income you'll get from getting biglaw. I could have stayed in my 50k pre law school job, but I wouldn't have been putting away 2500 dollars a month.

[downbeat14]

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[Desert Fox]

No ones gonna care about your GPA addendum

I mean, not only do people not care about addendums general but you went up from a 2.9 to a 3.1

That's not really improving by leaps and bounds now is it

Better hope you can pull that 175 duder

Do splitters get money outside of trap midwestern T50s?

[downbeat14]

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[Life2good893]

People don't have to justify what they might get on the LSAT to you. Do you not realize why pressing this kid to present evidence of his LSAT potential is fucked up? Is it likely he'll break 175? No. But if he's going to do it, he needs support, not people convincing him he can't do it. Signed, guy who broke 175 with a worse GPA.

Wow you broke 175? Any tips for me and OP about how to do well?

[bl1nds1ght]

...with a significantly worse GPA than you who's been admitted to multiple T20 schools with significant scholarships this cycle...

So far I've been offered a full ride at UMN and $120k at WUSTL with a 172 LSAT which I think is entirely doable if you put enough time into studying. Again, my situation isn't amazing thanks to my terrible GPA; I still don't have a T14 acceptance and I'm certain I'll be shut out of HYSCCNMVPB (only even bothered applying to UVA among those) but OP has a shot at some decent options if s/he can crack 170.

Oh my god this gives me hope.
I've seen some of the outcomes on LSN, which were nice, but it's great to hear someone copping a fully to MN with a sub-3.0 like me.

[pamphleteer]

NU ED isn't happening for anyone with a GPA below ~3.4-3.5 no matter what their LSAT score is.

[baal hadad]

No ones gonna care about your GPA addendum

I mean, not only do people not care about addendums general but you went up from a 2.9 to a 3.1

That's not really improving by leaps and bounds now is it

Better hope you can pull that 175 duder

Do splitters get money outside of trap midwestern T50s?

Lol noap

[MattM]

Why not try for UT Austin? OP has 50/50 shot at admittance and even with those numbers 60% of admits get scholly $



I would apply there and see what $ you get from them....If you got even 50K it might be worth attending.

[Dog]

NU ED isn't happening for anyone with a GPA below ~3.4-3.5 no matter what their LSAT score is.

I did a lot of research on NU EDs and ended up doing it myself (I was 174, 3.6). I'd say this is mostly true. The people I've seen get it with lower numbers are URMs.

170+ 3.5+ is the place where you can feel really good about your chances. A guy got it this cycle with a 3.48 or something but he had WE and a 179. It's gotten easier for people with 168/169s, recently, but I haven't seen non-URMs below 3.4 getting it.

[fats provolone]

No ones gonna care about your GPA addendum

I mean, not only do people not care about addendums general but you went up from a 2.9 to a 3.1

That's not really improving by leaps and bounds now is it

Better hope you can pull that 175 duder

Do splitters get money outside of trap midwestern T50s?

Lol noap

i dunno man i said this in another thread and people were like "bro 170/3.2 gets you like $$ at uva now"

[180kickflip]

NU ED isn't happening for anyone with a GPA below ~3.4-3.5 no matter what their LSAT score is.

I did a lot of research on NU EDs and ended up doing it myself (I was 174, 3.6). I'd say this is mostly true. The people I've seen get it with lower numbers are URMs.

170+ 3.5+ is the place where you can feel really good about your chances. A guy got it this cycle with a 3.48 or something but he had WE and a 179. It's gotten easier for people with 168/169s, recently, but I haven't seen non-URMs below 3.4 getting it.

What sort of numbers do you think an AA URM would need to be competitive for NUs ED? I've got a 3.2x GPA and may shoot for NUs ED if this cycle doesn't work out for me =/

[Tiago Splitter]

No ones gonna care about your GPA addendum

I mean, not only do people not care about addendums general but you went up from a 2.9 to a 3.1

That's not really improving by leaps and bounds now is it

Better hope you can pull that 175 duder

Do splitters get money outside of trap midwestern T50s?

Lol noap

i dunno man i said this in another thread and people were like "bro 170/3.2 gets you like $$ at uva now"

Things have definitely changed but even a few years ago crumpetsandtea got like 50k from Northwestern with her 2.8/176. Anyone who can get multiple T-14 acceptances should get legit money.

[Desert Fox]

The problem though is even $-$$ money sorta sucks. 45k just gets you back to where we were 5 years ago.