3.4/164

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mattf
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3.4/164

Postby mattf » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:40 pm

Depaul
Drake
University of Missouri-Kansas City
Saint Louis University
University of Kansas
University of Iowa Carver
Ohio Northern University

These are some schools I'm thinking about, what are my chances?

ilikebaseball
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby ilikebaseball » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:44 pm

Why are these the schools you are considering with a 164 if I may ask

BigZuck
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby BigZuck » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:47 pm

Check out http://www.mylsn.com for chances

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:49 pm

The 164 is from a practice exam, I haven't actually taken the LSAT yet, the 3.4 is also just where I'm sitting at right now. Just trying to get an idea of if I were to finish with the same GPA and get the same LSAT score as the practice exam where could I expect to go, because reading "average LSAT scores/GPAs" vary online and have limited reliability.

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Kratos
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby Kratos » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:50 pm


ilikebaseball
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby ilikebaseball » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:51 pm

mattf wrote:The 164 is from a practice exam, I haven't actually taken the LSAT yet, the 3.4 is also just where I'm sitting at right now. Just trying to get an idea of if I were to finish with the same GPA and get the same LSAT score as the practice exam where could I expect to go, because reading "average LSAT scores/GPAs" vary online and have limited reliability.


oh, then this is irrelevant. The real LSAT is what matters, and in reality nothing can replicate the anxiety and stress of test day. But, with a 164, you should be looking at better schools.

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R. Jeeves
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby R. Jeeves » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:51 pm

Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:58 pm

pulstar1 wrote:Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.


I started out majoring in chemistry, I did some undergrad research in a lab for a while and despised it. My interpersonal skills are too strong for a job doing any kind of chemical research or work really, it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social. Judging from the lab I did undergrad research in and the type of people in the chemistry classes I'm taking I'm guessing that would be the majority of the type of people I would work with. In addition to that a career in law has appealed to me for quite a while.
Last edited by mattf on Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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twenty
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby twenty » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:07 am

mattf wrote:it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social


Run, run as fast as your little legs can take you in the exact opposite direction as law school.

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:09 am

twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social


Run, run as fast as your little legs can take you in the exact opposite direction as law school.


Maybe law school students and lawyers are sometimes, or commonly anti-social but that doesn't mean that all of them are or that the clients would be.

Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.

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R. Jeeves
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby R. Jeeves » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:12 am

mattf wrote:
pulstar1 wrote:Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.


I started out majoring in chemistry, I did some undergrad research in a lab for a while and despised it. My interpersonal skills are too strong for a job doing any kind of chemical research or work really, it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social. Judging from the lab I did undergrad research in and the type of people in the chemistry classes I'm taking I'm guessing that would be the majority of the type of people I would work with. In addition to that a career in law has appealed to me for quite a while.

What exactly is a T-14 school and what are the average LSAT/GPA for those schools? What's the benefit of going to one of those skills as opposed to the schools I listed above or any other school for that matter?


Is it too late to switch your major? I'm in engineering and I have the same complaints, but by the time I decided that law school would be my escape route I was already in too deep.

T-14 refers to the law schools ranked numbers 1 through 14 by USNWR. Graduating from one of these schools is more likely to get you a job that can service your debt than most other schools can.

But how do you know that a career in law is what you want? Do you know any thing about the profession? Do you know what the salaries and job prospects are like? You aren't familiar with the concept of T-14, so it looks like you have quite a bit of research left to do before it would be wise to plan on going to law school for sure.

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Re: 3.4/164

Postby BigZuck » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:12 am

mattf wrote:
pulstar1 wrote:Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.


I started out majoring in chemistry, I did some undergrad research in a lab for a while and despised it. My interpersonal skills are too strong for a job doing any kind of chemical research or work really, it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social. Judging from the lab I did undergrad research in and the type of people in the chemistry classes I'm taking I'm guessing that would be the majority of the type of people I would work with. In addition to that a career in law has appealed to me for quite a while.


I saw what you edited out. T14 is the top schools as ranked by US News, basically the best law schools in the country and most people consider them a cut above the rest. The rest of the U.S. News rankings really don't matter for the most part.

Check out the website law school transparency for an idea of how well schools place their grads, where they place them, etc. to come up with a list to apply to.

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Mullens
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby Mullens » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:13 am

mattf wrote:
pulstar1 wrote:Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.


I started out majoring in chemistry, I did some undergrad research in a lab for a while and despised it. My interpersonal skills are too strong for a job doing any kind of chemical research or work really, it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social. Judging from the lab I did undergrad research in and the type of people in the chemistry classes I'm taking I'm guessing that would be the majority of the type of people I would work with. In addition to that a career in law has appealed to me for quite a while.

What exactly is a T-14 school and what are the average LSAT/GPA for those schools? What's the benefit of going to one of those skills as opposed to the schools I listed above or any other school for that matter?


1. Law is a pretty anti-social profession. If you hate working with anti-social people, being a lawyer probably isn't for you.

2. Here's a google doc of the LSAT/GPA medians.

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R. Jeeves
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby R. Jeeves » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:16 am

mattf wrote:
twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social


Run, run as fast as your little legs can take you in the exact opposite direction as law school.


Maybe law school students and lawyers are sometimes, or commonly anti-social but that doesn't mean that all of them are or that the clients would be.

Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.


There are other ways out of STEM though. You don't have to be a lawyer to escape.

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:18 am

pulstar1 wrote:
mattf wrote:
pulstar1 wrote:Have you taken your LSAT yet? From your post history it looks like you're in the early stages of your undergraduate career as a chemistry major. You'll be better off trying pursuing employment as a chemist instead of a lawyer if you are shooting for any of the schools you've listed. Shoot for a higher LSAT score, set your sights on a T-14.

ETA: Just saw your post above. Shoot for a 170+ on your LSAT. Get your GPA up if you can too.


I started out majoring in chemistry, I did some undergrad research in a lab for a while and despised it. My interpersonal skills are too strong for a job doing any kind of chemical research or work really, it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social. Judging from the lab I did undergrad research in and the type of people in the chemistry classes I'm taking I'm guessing that would be the majority of the type of people I would work with. In addition to that a career in law has appealed to me for quite a while.

What exactly is a T-14 school and what are the average LSAT/GPA for those schools? What's the benefit of going to one of those skills as opposed to the schools I listed above or any other school for that matter?


Is it too late to switch your major? I'm in engineering and I have the same complaints, but by the time I decided that law school would be my escape route I was already in too deep.

T-14 refers to the law schools ranked numbers 1 through 14 by USNWR. Graduating from one of these schools is more likely to get you a job that can service your debt than most other schools can.

But how do you know that a career in law is what you want? Do you know any thing about the profession? Do you know what the salaries and job prospects are like? You aren't familiar with the concept of T-14, so it looks like you have quite a bit of research left to do before it would be wise to plan on going to law school for sure.


I don't know much about law school, admissions, application process, etc. But I've done a decent amount of research on what the day-to-day job is like, what the outlook for jobs is like, how much lawyers of different fields enjoy their job, the different types of law you can go into, etc.

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twenty
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby twenty » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:19 am

mattf wrote:Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.


1) Take "those people majoring in something science related" and put them in a group of between 80 and 350 other equally smart people.
2) Zap their credit cards in the amount of anywhere from 100k to 320k.
3) Tell them that the only way to make that money back is to "be smarter" on a 4 hour test than the other smart people in the group.

It's not just really awkward and anti-social, it's also needlessly over-competitive. Other law students are unquestioningly the worst part of law school.

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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:20 am

pulstar1 wrote:
mattf wrote:
twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:it would drive me insane to work around people who were anti-social


Run, run as fast as your little legs can take you in the exact opposite direction as law school.


Maybe law school students and lawyers are sometimes, or commonly anti-social but that doesn't mean that all of them are or that the clients would be.

Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.


There are other ways out of STEM though. You don't have to be a lawyer to escape.


And I did a fair amount of research on other jobs I could have with a Chemistry degree that would better suit my interests and different ways I could switch my major but I don't see being a lawyer as a "way to escape". I see it as a job I would enjoy doing and an alternative to what I was planning on doing before but later realized I would not enjoy.

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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:22 am

twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.


1) Take "those people majoring in something science related" and put them in a group of between 80 and 350 other equally smart people.
2) Zap their credit cards in the amount of anywhere from 100k to 320k.
3) Tell them that the only way to make that money back is to "be smarter" on a 4 hour test than the other smart people in the group.

It's not just really awkward and anti-social, it's also needlessly over-competitive. Other law students are unquestioningly the worst part of law school.


But why is it so anti-social. Who specifically involved with the job of being a lawyer is anti-social? Or is it just other lawyers/law students.

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Mullens
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby Mullens » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:27 am

.
Last edited by Mullens on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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R. Jeeves
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby R. Jeeves » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:28 am

twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:Also, I sincerely doubt that they come close to matching the level of "anti-socialness" as a large amount of the people majoring in something science-related.


1) Take "those people majoring in something science related" and put them in a group of between 80 and 350 other equally smart people.
2) Zap their credit cards in the amount of anywhere from 100k to 320k.
3) Tell them that the only way to make that money back is to "be smarter" on a 4 hour test than the other smart people in the group.

It's not just really awkward and anti-social, it's also needlessly over-competitive. Other law students are unquestioningly the worst part of law school.


Fair points, but have you actually had a conversation with a chem major before? ....yeah that's because no one has. I have a difficult time believing that lawyers are weirder than STEMers. Anecdote: Seoulless is a chem major.

ETA: although, yes, an environment that is academically competitive to this degree is almost certainly not going to foster the social environment that youre imagining OP.
Last edited by R. Jeeves on Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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twenty
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby twenty » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:34 am

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Who else would be in the scope of "people" if not lawyers/law students? If you want to go for the apples to apples comparison here, we're comparing people in law to people in hard sciences. They're pretty much the same, with the former being more competitive (probably) due to more debt and less job security. If you're including clients, judges, professors, etc., then the comparison is less fair.

edit> I'm sure chem majors are horrible people too.
edit2> I guess all this to say: don't go for law because you think chem/etc. is ridiculously anti-social.

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:37 am

Mullens wrote:
mattf wrote:
I don't know much about law school, admissions, application process, etc. But I've done a decent amount of research on what the day-to-day job is like, what the outlook for jobs is like, how much lawyers of different fields enjoy their job, the different types of law you can go into, etc.


What do you think the day-to-day job of a lawyer is like? Please explain it to me. I have a hard time believing you truly understand when you had never heard of the T14.


Why do you feel the need to challenge me? I was curious before I even started seriously considering law school what exactly it was that a lawyer does on a day-to-day basis. So I researched it, and not just from one source but multiple. Believe it or not T14 never came up under any of the write-ups of what a lawyer does on a daily basis, and as I had previously mentioned I was more curious with what lawyers actually did and less with what is required of a prospective law student in terms of grades/LSAT score and what law school I should to go to, to achieve what I desire.

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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:40 am

twenty wrote:I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Who else would be in the scope of "people" if not lawyers/law students? If you want to go for the apples to apples comparison here, we're comparing people in law to people in hard sciences. They're pretty much the same, with the former being more competitive (probably) due to more debt and less job security. If you're including clients, judges, professors, etc., then the comparison is less fair.

edit> I'm sure chem majors are horrible people too.
edit2> I guess all this to say: don't go for law because you think chem/etc. is ridiculously anti-social.


I guess anti-social isn't the best adjective to use, socially awkward would be better. And while many lawyers may be anti-social they aren't entirely who you work with. You work people of various professions. Whereas if I were to work as a chemist I would be working almost exclusively with chemists (with the exception of my bosses who would most likely be chemists who simply climbed the ladder).

And I'm not going for law solely because I think chem is anti-social, I'm deciding not to pursue a career in chemistry because the majority of the people working in it are anti-social.

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twenty
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby twenty » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:54 am

mattf wrote:
twenty wrote:I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Who else would be in the scope of "people" if not lawyers/law students? If you want to go for the apples to apples comparison here, we're comparing people in law to people in hard sciences. They're pretty much the same, with the former being more competitive (probably) due to more debt and less job security. If you're including clients, judges, professors, etc., then the comparison is less fair.

edit> I'm sure chem majors are horrible people too.
edit2> I guess all this to say: don't go for law because you think chem/etc. is ridiculously anti-social.


I guess anti-social isn't the best adjective to use, socially awkward would be better. And while many lawyers may be anti-social they aren't entirely who you work with. You work people of various professions. Whereas if I were to work as a chemist I would be working almost exclusively with chemists (with the exception of my bosses who would most likely be chemists who simply climbed the ladder).

And I'm not going for law solely because I think chem is anti-social, I'm deciding not to pursue a career in chemistry because the majority of the people working in it are anti-social.


At some level that's probably true, but not enough to make a notable difference. There are places where that rings more true than others. At a law firm, you'll be with socially-awkward/anti-social lawyers 24/7. There's very little client interaction as a budding associate. On the other hand, if you start with the PD's office, you'll probably have lots of client interaction pretty early on. I suppose that is unique from chemistry in that regard - but if chemistry is a D-, law is a B- as far as sociability goes. It's probably an improvement depending on what you're doing, but also kind of a frying pan -> fire thing if the social awkwardness of chem people bothers you that much. Like, it will bother you in law, too, is what I'm saying.

mattf
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Re: 3.4/164

Postby mattf » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 am

twenty wrote:
mattf wrote:
twenty wrote:I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Who else would be in the scope of "people" if not lawyers/law students? If you want to go for the apples to apples comparison here, we're comparing people in law to people in hard sciences. They're pretty much the same, with the former being more competitive (probably) due to more debt and less job security. If you're including clients, judges, professors, etc., then the comparison is less fair.

edit> I'm sure chem majors are horrible people too.
edit2> I guess all this to say: don't go for law because you think chem/etc. is ridiculously anti-social.


I guess anti-social isn't the best adjective to use, socially awkward would be better. And while many lawyers may be anti-social they aren't entirely who you work with. You work people of various professions. Whereas if I were to work as a chemist I would be working almost exclusively with chemists (with the exception of my bosses who would most likely be chemists who simply climbed the ladder).

And I'm not going for law solely because I think chem is anti-social, I'm deciding not to pursue a career in chemistry because the majority of the people working in it are anti-social.


At some level that's probably true, but not enough to make a notable difference. There are places where that rings more true than others. At a law firm, you'll be with socially-awkward/anti-social lawyers 24/7. There's very little client interaction as a budding associate. On the other hand, if you start with the PD's office, you'll probably have lots of client interaction pretty early on. I suppose that is unique from chemistry in that regard - but if chemistry is a D-, law is a B- as far as sociability goes. It's probably an improvement depending on what you're doing, but also kind of a frying pan -> fire thing if the social awkwardness of chem people bothers you that much. Like, it will bother you in law, too, is what I'm saying.


It's to a lesser degree, and I could be somewhat selective in what I do as a lawyer to maximize client interaction and minimize social awkwardness. You're going to have that type of people no matter where you guy, I understand that and I can tolerate it to a certain degree, even to a moderately-high degree. But working in a chemistry lab, it's a lot to put up with. It's almost to the point where having the simplest of colloquial conversations can prove almost cumbersome (e.g. "So how have you been doing today?" ".....Good....")




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