Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

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navykev
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Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:45 am

Every now and then I'll see a "what are my chances" post from a veteran and I'll see some well intentioned TLS advice that's way off. So I figured I'd clarify an important factor that impacts the advice that should be given to vets -- I know that TLSers want to give good, well informed advice!

For the most part, the standard TLS "retake for scholarship money" advice doesn't apply to vets eligible for the Post 9/11 GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon Program (YRP) --most modern day vets are eligible at some level. The reason is that just about every top 50 school is significantly discounted or free for vets. Here is the breakdown of what T14s would cost a vet, who didn't receive any scholarship offer, if they are GI Bill/YRP eligible:

- Free T14s: Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Berk, Mich, Duke, UVA and Cornell
- Northwestern will cost a vet a little under $6,000 a year.
- Georgetown will cost a vet a little under $13,000 a year.
- Yale will cost a vet a little under $26,000 a year.

Additionally, vets get $1000 a year for books and a living stipend based on the cost of living in the area. For example, a vet going to Harvard will have their tuition paid and they will receive $2,817 a month for living expenses (don't get that living stipend during the summer).

All that being said -- some vets -- usually enlisted guys/gals like me -- use their GI Bill benefit for undergrad -- a terrible decision if they know they are going to law school -- if that is the case, then the standard advice would apply!

Hope this helps give better advice and happy Turkey day to all!!!
Last edited by navykev on Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

thisisflamelol
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby thisisflamelol » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:18 am

Good point. One addendum:

Military academy graduates need to serve 8 years before they are fully eligible for post 9-11 GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon Program benefits. ROTC scholarship graduates need to serve 7 years. Thus, most officers applying to graduate school will not qualify. Pilots, OCS graduates, and non-scholarship ROTC graduates are the usual exceptions.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:54 am

thisisflamelol wrote:Good point. One addendum:

Military academy graduates need to serve 8 years before they are fully eligible for post 9-11 GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon Program benefits. ROTC scholarship graduates need to serve 7 years. Thus, most officers applying to graduate school will not qualify. Pilots, OCS graduates, and non-scholarship ROTC graduates are the usual exceptions.


Good input!!!

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fats provolone
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby fats provolone » Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:24 pm

they should probably still retake so same difference really

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:58 pm

fats provolone wrote:they should probably still retake so same difference really

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twenty
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby twenty » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:07 pm

From what I understand, when you're using the GI Bill, you also get a (pretty generous) housing stipend.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:26 pm

fats provolone wrote:they should probably still retake so same difference really


Agreed. I didn't "retake for money", I retook so that I could improve my chances of getting into the school I wanted. If someone's score is such that it will get them into the school they want, but without much (or any) money, that's the only time where someone with the GI Bill/YRP could afford to skip retaking, while someone without those benefits might be better off retaking for more money.

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fats provolone
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:08 am

and honestly if someone makes a thread like 3.9/168, going to uva for free, most people aren't gonna be like "NO WAY DUDE RETAKE AND PAY STICKER AT HARVARD"

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twenty
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby twenty » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:36 am

fats provolone wrote:most people aren't gonna be like "NO WAY DUDE RETAKE


do believe you may be underestimating the chances forum, mr. duck.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:07 am

ScottRiqui wrote:
fats provolone wrote:they should probably still retake so same difference really


Agreed. I didn't "retake for money", I retook so that I could improve my chances of getting into the school I wanted. If someone's score is such that it will get them into the school they want, but without much (or any) money, that's the only time where someone with the GI Bill/YRP could afford to skip retaking, while someone without those benefits might be better off retaking for more money.


That was really my point with this thread -- if a vet has the numbers to get into the school they want -- "retake for scholarship" advice doesn't apply. If the advice is to motivate them to go for HYS vice where they want to go -- then yeah off course retake. I was addressing the "retake for scholarship" advice I see so often thrown at vets.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:09 am

twenty wrote:From what I understand, when you're using the GI Bill, you also get a (pretty generous) housing stipend.


Yeah it really is a pretty good deal.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:41 am

fats provolone wrote:and honestly if someone makes a thread like 3.9/168, going to uva for free, most people aren't gonna be like "NO WAY DUDE RETAKE AND PAY STICKER AT HARVARD"


Not sure what this has to do with this thread -- Harvard is free for vets as well -- so even bad advice like "NO WAY DUDE RETAKE AND PAY STICKER AT HARVARD" would never apply to a vet eligible for GI Bill/YRP. The reason I made this thread was because I kept seeing the "retake for scholarship" advice for vets. That advice doesn't make sense if you understand the benefits that vets have. I was trying to help TLSers - who I assume want to give informed advice -- give better advice to vets. Think folks are misinterpreting why I made this thread.
Last edited by navykev on Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ex Cearulo
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby Ex Cearulo » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:45 am

The next step for vets using the 9/11 GI Bill to pay for most or all of their tuition is finding out which schools are willing to reclassify scholarship offers to cost-of-living, and convincing more schools to do so.

The 9/11 GI Bill operates as a "last payer" system, so it's only applied after all other grants, scholarships, etc have been paid. I think schools willing to make their scholarship offer a so-called "cost-of-living grant" to fill vets' remaining financial need will find themselves at a strategic advantage in getting vets to matriculate. Regular scholarships from the school don't really do much for 9/11 GI Bill vets other than at certain schools like Georgetown where it covers the difference.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:47 am

Ex Cearulo wrote:The next step for vets using the 9/11 GI Bill to pay for most or all of their tuition is finding out which schools are willing to reclassify scholarship offers to cost-of-living, and convincing more schools to do so.

The 9/11 GI Bill operates as a "last payer" system, so it's only applied after all other grants, scholarships, etc have been paid. I think schools willing to make their scholarship offer a so-called "cost-of-living grant" to fill vets' remaining financial need will find themselves at a strategic advantage in getting vets to matriculate. Regular scholarships from the school don't really do much for 9/11 GI Bill vets other than at certain schools like Georgetown where it covers the difference.


That's the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would generate -- stuff vets and folks giving advice to vets could use! Great input.

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Ex Cearulo
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby Ex Cearulo » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:51 am

No problem! I know for me the reclassify thing will definitely play a factor in my decision. Reclassifying scholarships has been touched on in the Veterans Thread. And one or two people have been actively looking into it. So no need to dive into it here.

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haus
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby haus » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:59 am

For those with sufficent post 9/11 GI Bill eligibility, money is not as much of a concern (personally my eligibity was prior to the change, tand it has been used/expired prior to starting down this path).

But for the vast majority of vets, retaking the LSAT until they have scored well enough to secure a seat in the best school that they desire to attend is good advice. Sure the debt problem is not as bad as it would be for others, but these benefits came at a high cost, as such vets owe it to themselves to get the best payout they can from them.

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navykev
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby navykev » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:05 am

haus wrote:For those with sufficent post 9/11 GI Bill eligibility, money is not as much of a concern (personally my eligibity was prior to the change, tand it has been used/expired prior to starting down this path).

But for the vast majority of vets, retaking the LSAT until they have scored well enough to secure a seat in the best school that they desire to attend is good advice. Sure the debt problem is not as bad as it would be for others, but these benefits came at a high cost, as such vets owe it to themselves to get the best payout they can from them.


Thanks Haus -- I agree -- retake until you have numbers that will get you into the school you want. Not having to worry about the scholarship side of the law school application process really changes what a vet should focus on -- all they need to worry about is getting in -- not getting money. A vet that EDs to Chicago or Columbia that gets in -- goes for free -- I don't think a lot of folks understand that when they are advising vets not to ED to a school like Chicago or Columbia. I understand why for sure -- heck I spent 20 years in the military and didn't understand the value of the GI Bill/YRP benefit until I started this law school journey.

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twenty
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby twenty » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:09 pm

navykev wrote:A vet that EDs to Chicago or Columbia that gets in -- goes for free -- I don't think a lot of folks understand that when they are advising vets not to ED to a school like Chicago or Columbia.


To be fair, this probably isn't because people don't understand that the GI bill gets you Chicago/Columbia for free, it's because

1) EDing doesn't give you much of a boost at either school regardless,

2) there's a real chance a vet with Chicago/Columbia numbers will outperform and get Harvard,

3) the difference between various T14s with a full ride is negligible enough to tell someone to default to individual circumstances in these kinds of situations. I have no problem telling a 23-year old unmarried kid to suck it up and take X offer because it financially makes the most sense, but I would have a much harder time telling a 35-year old married vet to sell his house and uproot his family from Durham, NC in order to go to Columbia on a full ride over Duke on a full ride.

The reason I made this thread was because I kept seeing the "retake for scholarship" advice for vets.


No offense, but I don't see this happening a lot. You may be able to find a couple threads where people tell fully-eligible vets to retake for scholarship money, but most (read: almost all) of the time, it's people telling vets to retake so they can get into a better school.

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twenty
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby twenty » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:21 pm

As a side note, "retake" for vets is even more valuable than "retake" for civilians/non-eligible vets.

Say you have someone with a 3.45 and a 166. They get into UMinn for 20k/year. When they retake and get a 173, they'll end up with some upper T14s at sticker, some lower T14s at around half, and a T20 or two with a full ride.

When a vet retakes a 3.45/166 -> 173, they end up with CCN full rides (which is pretty much the best civilian outcome that there is).

You end up having a lot more opportunity to overcome your bad-ish GPA in a way that everyone else can't.

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fats provolone
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:25 pm

yea good point. it's like "retake for $" except you don't have to count on the school giving you $.

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sims1
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby sims1 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:38 pm

That's crazy, who funds this program? Is the government really okay with shelling over $200k no questions asked?

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fats provolone
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:39 pm

sims1 wrote:That's crazy, who funds this program? Is the government really okay with shelling over $200k no questions asked?

well they're paying for everyone else's loans so why not

support are troops bro

with yrp the schools contribute quite a bit though, so it's kinda like scholarship $

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sims1
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby sims1 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:48 pm

fats provolone wrote:
sims1 wrote:That's crazy, who funds this program? Is the government really okay with shelling over $200k no questions asked?

well they're paying for everyone else's loans so why not

support are troops bro

with yrp the schools contribute quite a bit though, so it's kinda like scholarship $


I never said guaranteed federal loans weren't crazy either.

It seems like a pretty sweet deal for vets, but as a taxpayer I might be opposed. I'm not American so I don't fully comprehend the support the troops mentality. I see military service as fairly similar to other government jobs, why doesn't someone who filed documents in city hall get a full ride?

Then again, I'm sure the funding doesn't just apply to someone who spent a year in the army so maybe it's justified.

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fats provolone
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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:50 pm

it's prorated by time in service. you need 3 years for 100%.

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Re: Advice for TLSers giving advice to military vets

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:01 pm

sims1 wrote:
fats provolone wrote:
sims1 wrote:That's crazy, who funds this program? Is the government really okay with shelling over $200k no questions asked?

well they're paying for everyone else's loans so why not

support are troops bro

with yrp the schools contribute quite a bit though, so it's kinda like scholarship $


I never said guaranteed federal loans weren't crazy either.

It seems like a pretty sweet deal for vets, but as a taxpayer I might be opposed. I'm not American so I don't fully comprehend the support the troops mentality. I see military service as fairly similar to other government jobs, why doesn't someone who filed documents in city hall get a full ride?

Then again, I'm sure the funding doesn't just apply to someone who spent a year in the army so maybe it's justified.


It's a sweet deal, but very few people take full advantage of it. That being said, even though it can be worth a ton of $$ to someone interested in going to law school (both in terms of GI Bill+YRP and in terms of improved admissions and job prospects), it says something that I don't go on to every prospective student thread and recommend military service. It's impossible to understate how bad the experience can be for those who don't want to be there.

As for what make military service different from any other government service... it's just about everything. There's the obvious increased risk of death or life ruining injury. There's the fact that you give up your civilian legal rights, your ability to choose where you live, your ability to quit your job, choose what food you eat, and often your ability to see your family for months at a time. Quality of life is usually a perk for gov positions...this is definitely not the case with the military.

I don't know if the GI Bill is socially beneficial or not, and it's not earned in every case, but it certainly is not a hand out.


eta: but yea, it's still tough to imagine a scenario where it would make sense for a civilian to retake but not a vet. Instead of retaking for scholly $$$, you're retaking for job prospects. I would tell a vet with a 168 to retake.
Last edited by UnicornHunter on Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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