I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

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BigZuck
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:31 pm

kartelite wrote:
kalvano wrote:
kartelite wrote:In my case, possibly teach; possibly return to one of my prior firms (or a different one) in finance/consulting; possibly open my own consulting firm/hedge fund or some random start-up with friends.


And what makes you think any of that will be possible without working the hours at firm first? You don't know anything when you graduate law school and are in no way prepared to be a lawyer.


They hired me without a law degree, I hardly think that a Yale or Columbia JD/MBA would make them reticent to do so again. In particular, a top law degree would provide huge marketing/networking value in my current industry (where the vast majority of our work comes through law firms), and it would also help me understand the issues better. As one example, I had to prepare a pitch deck for a corporate governance case yesterday - don't you think a better understanding of the case law and principles like the Business Judgment Rule would help when it comes time to speak about the merits of the case with counsel?

You really think I need to work at a law firm to open my own consulting firm/hedge fund? Give me a break...and one of my parents has taught at a T25 school for nearly 30 years - I'll take his/her advice (and that of my other parent, also a lawyer) over that of random college students any time. I posted here to give OP advice, not to defend my life choices. But I appreciate your looking out for me!


I think it's really weird when people use the word "reticent" when they really mean "reluctant." It's almost as bad as when they say "reactionary" when someone gives a knee-jerk reaction to something.

Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:47 pm

BigZuck wrote:
I think it's really weird when people use the word "reticent" when they really mean "reluctant." It's almost as bad as when they say "reactionary" when someone gives a knee-jerk reaction to something.



Touché.

BigZuck wrote:
Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH


For me this isn't really pertinent, as I don't intend on entering the "legal job market." But I think a law professor who is very concerned about finding the best placement for his/her students is definitely in touch with this market.

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:54 pm

kartelite wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
I think it's really weird when people use the word "reticent" when they really mean "reluctant." It's almost as bad as when they say "reactionary" when someone gives a knee-jerk reaction to something.



Touché.

BigZuck wrote:
Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH


For me this isn't really pertinent, as I don't intend on entering the "legal job market." But I think a law professor who is very concerned about finding the best placement for his/her students is definitely in touch with this market.


If you aren't entering the legal job market than you shouldn't go to law schools.

Law professors are among the most out of touch because they haven't looked for jobs recently.

Read inside the law school scam - which should impress you because it was written by a law prof or read don't go to law school unless.. Written by the same prof paul campos.

Read blogs about teaching in law school the facultylounge is one .

I can't tell you more strongly that you don't know what you are talking about.

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH

NYstate wrote:I can't tell you more strongly that you don't know what you are talking about.


I think you guys are forgetting that he has business experience.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:04 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH

NYstate wrote:I can't tell you more strongly that you don't know what you are talking about.


I think you guys are forgetting that he has business experience.


No, what you're forgetting is that a law degree in my current profession is a great asset, and as someone who thoroughly enjoys an academic environment I think the experience would be very enjoyable. I love reading and learning about the law, and furthermore it could be cheaper than pursuing an MBA alone (not going to break this out for your benefit, but you're paying less tuition to the business school and if you get significant law school aid it is cheaper overall).

Do I need a law degree? No. Will it help me improve my income? Who knows, maybe but maybe not - not at BigLaw associate pay. Do I think law school would be enjoyable? Yes. Could it help open doors down the road to other opportunities? I think so. Do I need to worry about being "employable"? No, I am just fine now, but my goal is to do my own thing down the road - either law practice in a niche area, consulting, or something different. I don't intend on needing anyone to hand me a job, as I think it's quite likely I'll branch out on my own either during school or after. My current employment doesn't permit me to pursue those opportunities, and I could either do it sitting around or while simultaneously pursuing something worthwhile like a professional degree, which at worst would give me fallback options (and I wouldn't have to explain what I was doing the past 2-3 years).

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:25 pm

Is it the law degree that is a great asset or is it legal experience and actual knowledge that is valuable? I haven't seen any fields where just getting a law degree is valued outside of practicing law. How much will you spend for this?

What fallback options? What is in the back of your mind that you can do with your law degree.

Honestly, you sound like someone who has no clear idea of what to do so you will go to law school and say you spent your time wisely. Law school is not the enjoyable discourse you might think it is. At least not at my CCN alma mater.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:28 pm

kartelite wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:Why would you not get an MBA?


Are you asking me? I am in fact applying to some 3-year joint programs (Yale, Columbia). The extra year to get a JD seems worth it in light of my possible interest in teaching, writing about legal issues, and would give me more credibility if I opened my own shop or wanted to do something like international arbitration (I have a lot of overseas and foreign language experience).


So I see your "experience" lends nothing to your understanding of how a law degree can be used.

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:29 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Anyway, a lot of the random college students here know more about the legal job market than your boomer parents. HTH

NYstate wrote:I can't tell you more strongly that you don't know what you are talking about.


I think you guys are forgetting that he has business experience.


It doesn't seem to have given him any clarity of purpose. But I guess it doesn't matter because he isn't going to have to get a job or even put his 300,000 COA to use in any practical way. He will just create his own consulting firm or possibly teach.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:30 pm

kartelite wrote:Do I need a law degree? No. Will it help me improve my income? Who knows, maybe but maybe not - not at BigLaw associate pay. Do I think law school would be enjoyable? Yes. Could it help open doors down the road to other opportunities? I think so. Do I need to worry about being "employable"? No, I am just fine now, but my goal is to do my own thing down the road - either law practice in a niche area, consulting, or something different. I don't intend on needing anyone to hand me a job, as I think it's quite likely I'll branch out on my own either during school or after. My current employment doesn't permit me to pursue those opportunities, and I could either do it sitting around or while simultaneously pursuing something worthwhile like a professional degree, which at worst would give me fallback options (and I wouldn't have to explain what I was doing the past 2-3 years).


Boomer logic is a helluva drug.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:13 pm

NYstate wrote:Is it the law degree that is a great asset or is it legal experience and actual knowledge that is valuable? I haven't seen any fields where just getting a law degree is valued outside of practicing law. How much will you spend for this?


There are many areas where a law degree helps. My present position is just one example:

I currently work in litigation consulting (economic and financial cases, along with some regulatory and other advisory work). Most practice leaders in my firm have a PhD in econ (I have an MA and don't want to return to that), and after that are JDs. When it comes to sourcing business and speaking with counsel about our group's role, the JDs have a distinct advantage as they can understand how our expertise ties in to the legal issues. Obviously practical legal experience helps as well, but in many cases it is an understanding of the principles and how they are relevant in a certain case. As the industry is very relationship-driven, having old classmates even at the associate level can be a great way of making contacts and selling work, as can having someone on the engagement with a law degree as this does provide a level of comfort to counsel that you can understand the issues as they see them.

I'm not considering attending anywhere without significant need/merit aid (with a 3.8/176 I think I would have a decent shot).

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:24 pm

kartelite wrote:
NYstate wrote:Is it the law degree that is a great asset or is it legal experience and actual knowledge that is valuable? I haven't seen any fields where just getting a law degree is valued outside of practicing law. How much will you spend for this?


There are many areas where a law degree helps. My present position is just one example:

I currently work in litigation consulting (economic and financial cases, along with some regulatory and other advisory work). Most practice leaders in my firm have a PhD in econ (I have an MA and don't want to return to that), and after that are JDs. When it comes to sourcing business and speaking with counsel about our group's role, the JDs have a distinct advantage as they can understand how our expertise ties in to the legal issues. Obviously practical legal experience helps as well, but in many cases it is an understanding of the principles and how they are relevant in a certain case. As the industry is very relationship-driven, having old classmates even at the associate level can be a great way of making contacts and selling work, as can having someone on the engagement with a law degree as this does provide a level of comfort to counsel that you can understand the issues as they see them.

I'm not considering attending anywhere without significant need/merit aid (with a 3.8/176 I think I would have a decent shot).



So you are going to law school because you can get a better higher paying position with a company or in the industry where you currently work? I thought you said you were maybe going to start your own consulting thing or maybe teach.

You aren't getting need based aid if you have a high paying job. If you do get merit aid, you will still have cost of living plus your lost income expenses. You will still have a high COA.

It isn't true that just having a JD helps you in many fields. I can see that it might help with consultants but I'm surprised that a consultant doesn't have to have any actual experience.

timbs4339
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:28 pm

To the OP: You're seem to be going into law thinking that your business experience is going to put you on a different track than other lawyers with regards to getting an in-house counsel job without slaving away in biglaw for a few years. It won't. It may help you get biglaw with bad grades, but it's not even going to help you avoid doing junior associate grunt work that everyone has to do to learn the ropes of a highly specialized field. I know people with backgrounds even more impressive (they are the people that you would come on here and brag about networking with) who went to law school and are starting at the bottom rung along with us naive K-JD lawyers.

You are a perfect candidate for an MBA program since you have the thing that most people don't (the work experience) and all you need to do is get a good score on the GMAT. Business school is cheaper, way less stressful, and you'd probably like it a lot more. That's the way to move up in the corporate world, not using law school as a backdoor.

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:31 pm

But the LSAT came so naturally to him that he can 181 it (MENSA members get an extra point) in his sleep. The GMAT he has trouble with. Obviously, then, he was destined to be a lawyer and no one under 30 can tell him otherwise.

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Flips88
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Flips88 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:42 pm

patogordo wrote:But the LSAT came so naturally to him that he can 181 it (MENSA members get an extra point) in his sleep. The GMAT he has trouble with. Obviously, then, he was destined to be a lawyer and no one under 30 can tell him otherwise.

Making an educated guess here, but I bet k1a2t2i7e is a girl named Katie whose birthday is December 27th.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:06 pm

NYstate wrote:
So you are going to law school because you can get a better higher paying position with a company or in the industry where you currently work? I thought you said you were maybe going to start your own consulting thing or maybe teach.

You aren't getting need based aid if you have a high paying job. If you do get merit aid, you will still have cost of living plus your lost income expenses. You will still have a high COA.

It isn't true that just having a JD helps you in many fields. I can see that it might help with consultants but I'm surprised that a consultant doesn't have to have any actual experience.


That was just meant to be one example. One of my primary aims would be to set up my own shop in a similar area if I didn't go the teaching route or back to industry.

I appreciate that your and other people's advice might be right for most people, but everyone has a different situation. For example, what you say about need-based aid is generally true; however, Yale does not consider your past income, primary home equity, or retirement accounts (S/H consider one or more of those), and by paying down my mortgage with whatever savings I had at the time I would be able to enter with $0 in assets and get the full amount of grant money available. For that reason I would actually probably choose a lower-ranked school with aid over S/H but not over Y.

My main point is that you shouldn't give a one-size-fits-all answer without knowing both the details of someone's situation and what makes them happy.

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kalvano
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kalvano » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:10 pm

So your plan is to go solo with no legal experience to speak of, or to be a law professor? Solid plan. And I see you've already penciled in your acceptance to H/Y/S.

Do you also plan on winning the lottery?

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:23 pm

kalvano wrote:So your plan is to go solo with no legal experience to speak of, or to be a law professor? Solid plan. And I see you've already penciled in your acceptance to H/Y/S.

Do you also plan on winning the lottery?

Please, everyone knows the lottery is just nepenthe for the poor. If he needs money he'll just start his own lottery.

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:35 pm

kartelite wrote:
NYstate wrote:
So you are going to law school because you can get a better higher paying position with a company or in the industry where you currently work? I thought you said you were maybe going to start your own consulting thing or maybe teach.

You aren't getting need based aid if you have a high paying job. If you do get merit aid, you will still have cost of living plus your lost income expenses. You will still have a high COA.

It isn't true that just having a JD helps you in many fields. I can see that it might help with consultants but I'm surprised that a consultant doesn't have to have any actual experience.


That was just meant to be one example. One of my primary aims would be to set up my own shop in a similar area if I didn't go the teaching route or back to industry.

I appreciate that your and other people's advice might be right for most people, but everyone has a different situation. For example, what you say about need-based aid is generally true; however, Yale does not consider your past income, primary home equity, or retirement accounts (S/H consider one or more of those), and by paying down my mortgage with whatever savings I had at the time I would be able to enter with $0 in assets and get the full amount of grant money available. For that reason I would actually probably choose a lower-ranked school with aid over S/H but not over Y.

My main point is that you shouldn't give a one-size-fits-all answer without knowing both the details of someone's situation and what makes them happy.

I'm giving you good advice and so is everyone else. I basing my responses on your specific situation as far as you've explained it. You are unclear about your goals. What is interesting to me is that you have changed your story with every post. You posted in this thread claiming that the posters here don't understand the costs and benefits of law school or know what it is like in the real world of business. This is not true.

I'm standing by my statement that you sound like a typical 0L. Even from HYS, academia is very difficult to obtain. Most professors have at least a little firm or clerkship experience. Hiring is tight because admissions are dropping drastically and schools need to cut staff rather than hire more people. You can read about it in some of the academic blogs.
Starting your own firm is not a great plan either.

Mostly I think you underestimate the quality of the posters here. Or maybe you're just enjoying playing some kind of game here. All I can say is do more research on your own.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:49 pm

NYstate wrote:I'm giving you good advice and so is everyone else. I basing my responses on your specific situation as far as you've explained it. You are unclear about your goals. What is interesting to me is that you have changed your story with every post. You posted in this thread claiming that the posters here don't understand the costs and benefits of law school or know what it is like in the real world of business. This is not true.

I'm standing by my statement that you sound like a typical 0L. Even from HYS, academia is very difficult to obtain. Most professors have at least a little firm or clerkship experience. Hiring is tight because admissions are dropping drastically and schools need to cut staff rather than hire more people. You can read about it in some of the academic blogs.
Starting your own firm is not a great plan either.

Mostly I think you underestimate the quality of the posters here. Or maybe you're just enjoying playing some kind of game here. All I can say is do more research on your own.


I haven't changed my story. To sum up:

Plan A) Form start-up (consulting firm, high-tech froyo bar, interactive iPhone app, whatever).
Law degree helpful? Who knows - knowing how to read/write contracts and how to structure transactions is somewhat useful in a lot of businesses.

Plan B) Teach. I know the difficulty of breaking in, I don't need to be told. And I would consider clerkship for a year or two if I felt this was the path I wanted to pursue.
Law degree helpful? Yes.

Plan C) Back to industry (doing what I've done before or something similar).
Law degree helpful? Possibly...not planning on it giving me any real advantage though. But I doubt it would hurt.

"Why not MBA?" To make it clear, I'm also applying to MBA and joint JD/MBA programs. I would likely take Sloan MBA over HLS, but if the best MBA program I get into is some place like UCSD I'd rather go to a top law program (if I get in). Even as a law student, you still have access to start-up funding and student entrepreneurship organizations. But I plan on letting the chips fall where they may - what's wrong with considering all options?

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Flips88
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Flips88 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:56 pm

So basically you're looking at (a) amorphous unrelated to law businesses; (b) most difficult law job to break into; and (c) doing what you are doing now but after 3 years of opportunity costs.

Image

calex017
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby calex017 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:07 pm

I think Northwestern is your best option. Your LSAT score is great but you're not getting YHS with that undergrad gpa. They have much higher GPA floors than that (unless of course you've won a Nobel Peace Prize or something).

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cron1834
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:40 pm

kartelite wrote:
NYstate wrote:I'm giving you good advice and so is everyone else. I basing my responses on your specific situation as far as you've explained it. You are unclear about your goals. What is interesting to me is that you have changed your story with every post. You posted in this thread claiming that the posters here don't understand the costs and benefits of law school or know what it is like in the real world of business. This is not true.

I'm standing by my statement that you sound like a typical 0L. Even from HYS, academia is very difficult to obtain. Most professors have at least a little firm or clerkship experience. Hiring is tight because admissions are dropping drastically and schools need to cut staff rather than hire more people. You can read about it in some of the academic blogs.
Starting your own firm is not a great plan either.

Mostly I think you underestimate the quality of the posters here. Or maybe you're just enjoying playing some kind of game here. All I can say is do more research on your own.


I haven't changed my story. To sum up:

Plan A) Form start-up (consulting firm, high-tech froyo bar, interactive iPhone app, whatever).
Law degree helpful? Who knows - knowing how to read/write contracts and how to structure transactions is somewhat useful in a lot of businesses. Does not require law school; the debt & opp cost will only hinder.

Plan B) Teach. I know the difficulty of breaking in, I don't need to be told. And I would consider clerkship for a year or two if I felt this was the path I wanted to pursue.
Law degree helpful? Yes.Requires law school; is a pipe dream.

Plan C) Back to industry (doing what I've done before or something similar).
Law degree helpful? Possibly...not planning on it giving me any real advantage though. But I doubt it would hurt.Does not require law school; the debt & opp cost will only hinder.

"Why not MBA?" To make it clear, I'm also applying to MBA and joint JD/MBA programs. I would likely take Sloan MBA over HLS, but if the best MBA program I get into is some place like UCSD I'd rather go to a top law program (if I get in). Even as a law student, you still have access to start-up funding and student entrepreneurship organizations. But I plan on letting the chips fall where they may - what's wrong with considering all options?


Think it through. If it helps, I'm older than you. Really.

k1a2t2i7e
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby k1a2t2i7e » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:27 am

Wow, nice to see I have unintentionally created a beautiful mess.

Flips88 wrote:Making an educated guess here, but I bet k1a2t2i7e is a girl named Katie whose birthday is December 27th.


Amazing power of code cracking you have. Wrong on both counts. I am a male, and I have zero attachment to the date 12/27/XX ... but, nonetheless it is an old password a friend of mine (a girl) uses. For some reason it stuck. I needed a "handle" on here and since I would hate to out myself on xbox live or PSN I chose that one. lol

patogordo wrote:But the LSAT came so naturally to him that he can 181 it (MENSA members get an extra point) in his sleep. The GMAT he has trouble with. Obviously, then, he was destined to be a lawyer and no one under 30 can tell him otherwise.


Don't hate! I need that extra point! Actually, why is it not an extra 15? Im also the former vice president of my local Men's Golf Association. How about that for "douche" points... I am more likely to defend that one than MENSA membership. The golf thing was actually fun and there is nothing more exciting than having an honest to God screaming match with a 68 year old prominent man who could not for the life of him understand Equitable Stroke Control... No amount of graphs, papers, lectures, or articles from the USGA could convince this man that he was not being "Screwed" by the system.

And I do have trouble with the GMAT. A lot of that stems from a complete lack of desire to decipher if roman numeral I or I & II or I & III are the right combination. It brings back FAR too vivid memories of studying for the CFP designation mock tests that my finance professors shoved down my throat.

At the risk of being striped naked and flame trolled to death. I do have a really important question I would like to ask everyone on here who has a law degree...

Why do the plethora of message boards, articles, books, and youtube videos paint "solo law" as being impossible or at the least...unprofitable. I went to the blog mentioned in a previous post and read a lot of what the law professor had to say about things. Many of the comments on that site as well as some of the quoted articles, scoffed at the notion of solo-law being profitable...I speak from experience when I say that every one of the four solo lawyers my mother worked for when she was alive made a great deal of money. I did not grow up in Atlanta, New York, Boston, Chicago...I grew up in a town with a population of 15K people. These were not the only four lawyers in town. There are a lot of lawyers where I grew up. So taking a random sample of four (out of maybe 25? shoot, maybe more than that...they're everywhere it seems) and they all made a significant amount of money. One had houses in Costa-Rica as well as a few ideal destinations in the USA. For the record my mom was not some hot shot paralegal...she was a very sharp lady, but she was just a legal secretary. She never worked for the "big" lawyers in my hometown.

I am NOT advocating that my plan is to go right into solo(I am still working on a plan)...I am not that uninformed. I am certain none of these people went to any kind of BigLaw job early in their careers. None went to major law schools either. I am trying to decipher all the information.

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:32 am

Survivorship bias. Jesus, I thought you were a finance major?

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brotherdarkness
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:33 am

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Last edited by brotherdarkness on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.




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