I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:27 pm

Flips88 wrote:Your stats and age make you a perfect fit for Northwestern an MBA. But your personality is super off putting. Might want to reel in your ego for the application process and law school in general...

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cron1834
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby cron1834 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:31 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
Flips88 wrote:Your stats and age make you a perfect fit for Northwestern an MBA. But your personality is super off putting. Might want to reel in your ego for the application process and law school in general...

billydaduck
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby billydaduck » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:27 pm

Flips88 wrote:But your personality is super off putting.

k1a2t2i7e
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby k1a2t2i7e » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:29 pm

What is so off putting? I tried to stick to the facts, and share my opinions where necessary. I am not on here to make friends. I need advice about something I don't know very much about. In several months of reading everything I can get my hands on and pouring through blogs on the subject I am no closer to being able to make a confident decision on the subject.

I have serious doubts about my ability to destroy the GMAT. Which I would almost certainly have to do.

There is a WIDE RANGE of responses about law school out there. The Princeton Review for example makes the case that all employment fields are struggling, and Law is still a decent choice. I have read through forums similar to this one where everyone is anti law school. I have read just the opposite on others. I don't think anyone is lying but rather their own personal experiences have shaped their opinions.

I'm not looking for flamers or trolls... I am looking for genuine advice backed up with substance. I have gotten some on here and I thank you folks. My resume isn't perfect. If I had the perfect job I wouldn't be looking elsewhere. I am in a financially wonderful spot but the long term prospects are terrible where I am.

If I am lucky enough to sneak into a T14, I will do everything I can to make it work for me, for my situation. Hopefully it turns out well. Even if it does not I will have an excellent education from an excellent institution.

My earlier discussion of law students being inexperienced isn't meant to be offensive, it is just a regurgitation of all the statistics I have seen. Many 1L's are under 24... depending where you look or who you ask that % can climb over 50%...

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:10 pm

Please articulate what it is that you hope to get out of law school, in terms of employment. So far the information you have provided can be summed up as follows: "I don't seem to have good options in the future, so I will go to law school." In this regard you are similar to the legions of undergrad students who wrongly choose to attend law school every year, and like them you should probably consider something else.

Also, understand that the vast majority of students at T-14 schools will be every bit as "hire-able" as you intend to be. A lot of them still will not find the jobs they are looking for.

Have you read the NYT article? There is also a good one in the Atlantic and another in the WSJ. Law school is a losing proposition for like 90% of students, and it's not that the 10% who win are not evenly distributed across the top 10% of schools/class etc.

It does sound like you are laboring under some misapprehensions about the value of a law degree. It also sounds like your only reason for wanting a JD over an MBA is that you think you scored better on the LSAT than you could on the GMAT. Fortunately you don't have to do nearly as well. 178 on the LSAT is 99.9th whereas a 750 on the GMAT is 98th. So its a 1/1000 score vs a 1/50 score. Still though you may not feel comfortable shooting for a 750, and understandably you don't want to waste your LSAT, but unfortunately a JD is only good for practicing law.

Whatever you do don't attend law school believing that you'll have a wide range of lucrative opportunities upon graduation; lots of people will have no opportunities, and of those that do have lucrative opportunities 99 percent of them will be practicing law. Additionally, the "I don't want to work 80 hours" thing is not going to get you very far on these boards or in law school. A law degree really is not any sort of panacea for that can treat "not having other options," and treating it as such won't do you any good.

Yeah the economy has been down overall, but I mean seriously you have to be able to identify what are and are not good sources to consult on the economy for lawyers. Bad sources include old people, law deans, and other entities (like the princeton review) that have a vested interest in law being seen as a worthwhile investment. Check out Inside the Law School Scam if you haven't already, it is really fantastic.

Sorry for the rambling. People on these boards are unbelievably helpful, but they're not going to tell you or anyone else that something is a good idea if it isn't one. If you can articulate clear and realistic goals then you will find dozens of people here full of good advice. The goals you have articulated thus far are neither of these things, which is why you are not getting great advice. By goals I mean what you want to do with a law degree, not what school you want to get into. Again sorry for the rambling. You have a great background and you will no doubt have a successful future career, it just does not seem at this point that such a career should or will be in the legal field.

jackster58
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby jackster58 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:27 pm

I do not think you are off-putting and I think some the replies are inappropriate. Your question is sensible and your presentation just gives your stats and background.

I'm much older than you and have a long career in another profession and am also applying. Perhaps the age of the respondents and their lack of experience outside of school makes it hard for them to understand what work experience sounds like when put down on paper.

School is numerical (GPA) and comes with a transcript. Work is qualitative and must be stated and explained. There is no other way to put yourself forward.

And going to law school could be a very good move if you genuinely like the intellectual aspects and can apply it out there in the B-world.

I wuldn't let the negative comments bother you

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Flips88
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Flips88 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Here is some straight advice if you want to apply for law school:
-No one gives a shit if your LORs are by some CFO no one's heard of and a prof with meh publications. All that matters is they say something substantive about you and show that they actually know you personally and are not giving you a generic rec.

-No one cares about your edgy personal statement. It doesn't need to be the best PS they read all year. It almost certainly won't be.

-Do not have MENSA on anything


Bottom line: your sub-3.0 GPA + 178 LSAT screams Northwestern Law. There are lots of people here that are 28-35 who had shitty UG GPAs, worked, and then got a high LSAT. It's your best shot at a T14 and a pretty good one at that.

tiltedwindmill
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby tiltedwindmill » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:38 am

Flips88 wrote:Here is some straight advice if you want to apply for law school:
-No one gives a shit if your LORs are by some CFO no one's heard of and a prof with meh publications. All that matters is they say something substantive about you and show that they actually know you personally and are not giving you a generic rec.

-No one cares about your edgy personal statement. It doesn't need to be the best PS they read all year. It almost certainly won't be.

-Do not have MENSA on anything


Bottom line: your sub-3.0 GPA + 178 LSAT screams Northwestern Law. There are lots of people here that are 28-35 who had shitty UG GPAs, worked, and then got a high LSAT. It's your best shot at a T14 and a pretty good one at that.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:37 am

k1a2t2i7e wrote:TheSpanishMain: I meant a PS that is not guarded or safe. I have read over dozens of actual PS that people on various law school forums have posted. Some have an edge to them while others sound boring and feel as though the writer simply didn't want to hurt their chance at admission.

The LSAT was very natural to me. I scored over 160 on the first practice test I attempted. The GMAT is not so natural for me. I honestly don't know if I can score in the 750-800 range. I would need a score of that magnitude in order to offset my low GPA.

Most graduating law students are 26 with very little practical experience in the business world(or any world). I have tangible experience that businesses may want to tap into with the added bonus of a JD. My first choice of jobs in the legal world would not be 80 hours a week making $30.37 an hour ($160,000 broken down into its parts... $30.37*2080 hours + 1.5*$30.37*2080 hours) I would prefer a much more pedestrian 50 hours a week and work for a private company (not a law firm).

I will need to research more.


I'm older than you (30), and also have very good real-world experience, high LSAT, CFA charter, and two graduate degrees. Don't listen to 21-year-olds giving you career advice (obviously there is plenty of good advice coming from smart 21-year-olds here, but they probably have a different perspective and ambitions than you - the general feedback you'll get is "OMG ur making 200k per year with no debt why law school?!?"); if you think law school is what you want, go for it, but make sure your decision is well thought-out as it is a significant investment.

I also don't intend to be slaving away as an associate in my mid-30s, but I recognize the opportunities that exist for someone like you or me with both a practical background and legal training. If I were you I would only go to a T14 school (maybe a strong regional school like UCLA), but you also shouldn't discard the MBA route. You will likely be a more competitive applicant at T10 business schools (which tend to be very forgiving on UGPA) than at T14 law schools, and getting a 750+ GMAT shouldn't be difficult for you if you just brush up on high school math (for me it was easier and less stressful than getting 175+ LSAT)...and even a 720 is above median at many T10 schools.

Don't put MENSA on your CV, and apply to a few T14 schools that seem "splitter-friendly" as well as other T30 schools that you would consider attending. You can always decide not to attend later.

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:51 am

kartelite wrote:I'm older than you (30), and also have very good real-world experience, high LSAT, CFA charter, and two graduate degrees. Don't listen to 21-year-olds giving you career advice

What's hilarious is that this thread is full of terrible advice from a dude who's old enough to be your dad.

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cron1834
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:54 am

k1a2t2i7e wrote:What is so off putting? I tried to stick to the facts, and share my opinions where necessary. I am not on here to make friends. I need advice about something I don't know very much about. In several months of reading everything I can get my hands on and pouring through blogs on the subject I am no closer to being able to make a confident decision on the subject.

I have serious doubts about my ability to destroy the GMAT. Which I would almost certainly have to do.

There is a WIDE RANGE of responses about law school out there. The Princeton Review for example makes the case that all employment fields are struggling, and Law is still a decent choice. I have read through forums similar to this one where everyone is anti law school. I have read just the opposite on others. I don't think anyone is lying but rather their own personal experiences have shaped their opinions.

I'm not looking for flamers or trolls... I am looking for genuine advice backed up with substance. I have gotten some on here and I thank you folks. My resume isn't perfect. If I had the perfect job I wouldn't be looking elsewhere. I am in a financially wonderful spot but the long term prospects are terrible where I am.

If I am lucky enough to sneak into a T14, I will do everything I can to make it work for me, for my situation. Hopefully it turns out well. Even if it does not I will have an excellent education from an excellent institution.

My earlier discussion of law students being inexperienced isn't meant to be offensive, it is just a regurgitation of all the statistics I have seen. Many 1L's are under 24... depending where you look or who you ask that % can climb over 50%...


Aspie. As. Fuck.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:59 am

patogordo wrote:
kartelite wrote:I'm older than you (30), and also have very good real-world experience, high LSAT, CFA charter, and two graduate degrees. Don't listen to 21-year-olds giving you career advice

What's hilarious is that this thread is full of terrible advice from a dude who's old enough to be your dad.


Hah..point taken. I meant specifically career advice as it pertains to pursuing post-law school plans, not advice in general. I don't think age or "real world" experience is a sufficient condition for giving good advice to someone in OP's situation, but I think it is hard to understand his/her motivation for applying if you haven't worked for a couple years post-graduation.

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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Kimikho » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:40 am

scoobers wrote:PAGING:

Clearly (176/3.0ish?)
ScottRiqui (170/2.6)
t14-splitter?
mindarmed (177/2.9X)

You aren't unusual at all, dude. Northwestern will throw you $$$, or ED UVA. I'm thinking those users up there off the top of your head--that's how relatively "common" this is. YES you need an academic LOR. You are going to an academic degree. Putting distance between that UGPA and now is even better, but note that the last one on that list got UVA, Gtown, and Cornell as a KJD.

Your master's degree means nothing, though, sorry. Your age doesn't hurt anything.

ETA: Scanned through the first three pages for chance me threads:
3.2/172: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=223091
2.8/179: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=223197
2.83/175 2.5 years WE: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=222241


Dude, some young, naive, innocent KJDs have given you advice if you do decide to go this route, regardless of what we think of it. Part of the reason you are off-putting is because you are asking for advice and then ignoring it.

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kalvano
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kalvano » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:02 am

I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:16 am

kalvano wrote:I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?


Bro if you take the time to read you will see that they have experience in business so obviously they will be doing big and important things. We couldn't comprehend it.

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:20 am

kalvano wrote:I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?

If you were a wizened old 30 year old you'd understand, bro.

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kalvano
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kalvano » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:35 am

patogordo wrote:
kalvano wrote:I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?

If you were a wizened old 30 year old you'd understand, bro.


I guess being an ancient 33 year old means I've past the point of understanding.

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:38 am

kartelite wrote: I think it is hard to understand his/her motivation for applying if you haven't worked for a couple years post-graduation.


I understand why this guy wants to leave his current job; his motivations are completely reasonable and his foresight is commendable. The thing I don't understand is why he wants to go to law school rather than b-school, and what it is specifically that he hopes to get out of the former.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:41 am

kalvano wrote:I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?


In my case, possibly teach; possibly return to one of my prior firms (or a different one) in finance/consulting; possibly open my own consulting firm/hedge fund or some random start-up with friends.

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patogordo
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby patogordo » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:42 am

Sounds like that law degree will pay for itself!

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Pneumonia
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:43 am

Why would you not get an MBA?

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:53 am

Pneumonia wrote:Why would you not get an MBA?


Are you asking me? I am in fact applying to some 3-year joint programs (Yale, Columbia). The extra year to get a JD seems worth it in light of my possible interest in teaching, writing about legal issues, and would give me more credibility if I opened my own shop or wanted to do something like international arbitration (I have a lot of overseas and foreign language experience).

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kalvano
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kalvano » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:56 am

kartelite wrote:
kalvano wrote:I am super amused at all the older people who think they won't be doing the long hours at a firm because business experience.


What in the hell do you think you will be doing?


In my case, possibly teach; possibly return to one of my prior firms (or a different one) in finance/consulting; possibly open my own consulting firm/hedge fund or some random start-up with friends.


And what makes you think any of that will be possible without working the hours at firm first? You don't know anything when you graduate law school and are in no way prepared to be a lawyer.

NYstate
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby NYstate » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:07 pm

kartelite wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:Why would you not get an MBA?


Are you asking me? I am in fact applying to some 3-year joint programs (Yale, Columbia). The extra year to get a JD seems worth it in light of my possible interest in teaching, writing about legal issues, and would give me more credibility if I opened my own shop or wanted to do something like international arbitration (I have a lot of overseas and foreign language experience).


Do either of you guys in this thread understand what law school does - what you learn - or legal hiring? Do you understand the importance of grades?

You sound as naive as the typical college junior who posts here. And your goals are as nebulous. Do more research.

Teaching in law is an almost impossible job to get. And if you work at a firm you need to understand that you will be supervised by people younger than you. Firms are going to want to make sure that isn't an issue.

kartelite
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Re: I am 29! Will be 30 for Fall of 2015

Postby kartelite » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:25 pm

kalvano wrote:
kartelite wrote:In my case, possibly teach; possibly return to one of my prior firms (or a different one) in finance/consulting; possibly open my own consulting firm/hedge fund or some random start-up with friends.


And what makes you think any of that will be possible without working the hours at firm first? You don't know anything when you graduate law school and are in no way prepared to be a lawyer.


They hired me without a law degree, I hardly think that a Yale or Columbia JD/MBA would make them reticent to do so again. In particular, a top law degree would provide huge marketing/networking value in my current industry (where the vast majority of our work comes through law firms), and it would also help me understand the issues better. As one example, I had to prepare a pitch deck for a corporate governance case yesterday - don't you think a better understanding of the case law and principles like the Business Judgment Rule would help when it comes time to speak about the merits of the case with counsel?

You really think I need to work at a law firm to open my own consulting firm/hedge fund? Give me a break...and one of my parents has taught at a T25 school for nearly 30 years - I'll take his/her advice (and that of my other parent, also a lawyer) over that of random college students any time. I posted here to give OP advice, not to defend my life choices. But I appreciate your looking out for me!




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