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Terrible undergrad GPA, okay LSAT, but strong outside indicators

EDIT: Softs removed to help preserve anonymity

Any shot at a T14? Thanks for the opinions. Need something to brood on as I stress out waiting to hear back.

mysln has an awful lot of red for your numbers.

Almost no shot at T14 since you are below their LSAT medians and your GPA is bad.

WUSTL/UMN with $$/$ tho

TigerDude wrote:mysln has an awful lot of red for your numbers.

Yeah, in my experience softs are a tiebreaker. If your numbers are borderline, TFA and your nonprofit experience could help you get in, but if you're below both medians your chances of getting in are still very very slim.

Unless you're famous or there's a wing at the school named after your family, softs are just a tiebreaker.

right, I understand what the numbers say. i guess my question is whether a T14 will even look at a 4.0 in grad school to help assuage worries

thanks for the input all

yossarian71 wrote:right, I understand what the numbers say. i guess my question is whether a T14 will even look at a 4.0 in grad school to help assuage worries

Your 4.0 in grad school would count as a soft factor/tiebreaker too. Because US News doesn't factor graduate degree GPAs into rankings, law schools don't really care either. It's really dumb, especially for people with multiple Ph.D.s who graduated undergrad 20 years ago, but schools only care about your undergrad GPA. It's all about that US News ranking.

Retake. If you get up to 170 you could land some T14s, especially with those softs to help outweigh the 3.0.

Based on everything you shared, your best shot in the T-14 is probably Berkeley. Yeah, I know Berkeley has got a rep for being GPA-focused, but they're also a school that is occasionally willing to go WAY outside its median criteria for candidates with an interesting mix of softs. I'm not saying you're likely to get into Berkeley--I'm not even saying you've got a 10% shot to get admitted--but I would apply. I know people with (roughly) your profile who got in. It's worth a shot.

Thanks again everyone. With TFA I was able to get fee waivers at T5-T14, so I shotgunned it, hoping for an outside shot somewhere. More realistic, IUB with money. Appreciate all the insight.

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if you were PTing in the 170s then obviously you should take another shot

Nova wrote:if you were PTing in the 170s then obviously you should take another shot

I took it twice. Did not feel there were mitigating factors. 162 June and 166 Sept. I worked pretty hard for the first one, but I worked my ass off for the second one (3 hours/night/5 days/ week for 3 months and 5 hours/night final month). I have trouble believing I can see that much improvement on test day a 3rd time.

And I'm especially concerned I wouldn't retake well now 2 years out of undergrad/away from the tests.

Any thoughts on how to decrease PT/real test differential?

Getting TFA with a 3.0 is pretty remarkable. Was it after the MA program? Otherwise you've got something else going on in that UGPA.

If you're not a good test taker than you have a 0% chance at big law out of those schools. I mean, even if you are a good test taker your chances are slim, but they are non-existent if you crumble under test pressure.

If you want big law you have to get over your test taking issues, retake the LSAT, and go to a T14. If you're ok with a small firm job you can go to one of these schools if its cheap. If you're big law or bust and you can't improve your LSAT don't go to law school. And that would be fine, there are some great jobs to be had in education.

Usually a very good test taker. LSAT is the only thing I've ever done where I didn't feel the actual results matched my potential. (99th percentile SAT, 93rd percentile LSAT). I generally do very well under pressure. Confident that I can stay in top of class (top 10% at IUB, top half at T14) in law school and do well in high pressure situations down the road.

Nothing else I can see with the UGPA. Two major surgeries during undergrad which effected two semesters, but it's not like the rest of my semesters were stellar. 3.4 if you factor out the two surgery semesters. I interviewed really well with TFA. Once you get to the final interview with TFA, it is my understanding that GPA doesn't factor into their points system.

I hear what you guys are saying about biglaw, but biglaw doesn't really hire T14 here in Indy. Each firm will take maybe 1 T14, a few IUB, maybe a ND, UK, WUSTL, some other regional. I understand that because there are only a dozen each year, chances of biglaw in Indy are small regardless of where you go. Obviously better with a t14, the reason there aren't more here has to be mostly self-selection.

I'm also not biglaw or bust. My top interest is government, but I always figured I would do that by way of the private sector first as a way to build network/pay off loans/gain experience/etc. Like a really toned down, midwestern version of Sam Seaborn. (not sure how WW jokes play here on TLS). Also there are several midfirms here in Indy where I know attorneys and where I would be happy practicing.

Thanks, as always, for the feedback. Really appreciate it.

jbagelboy wrote:Getting TFA with a 3.0 is pretty remarkable. Was it after the MA program? Otherwise you've got something else going on in that UGPA.

No, MA program and TFA are concurrent.

Kinda makes you wonder if law school's would focus more on WE, specific majors (Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors), and well rounded applicants, than just numbers if there was no rankings.

OP, that's not a bad LSAT at all. I also have a crap GPA. Unfortunately, I had a lot of math classes, and took science classes to see if med school could be an option (Got my ass whooped after the intro classes. It's true if you're not really interested in the subject, you're not going to do well). Advanced managerial accounting didn't really help my case either. If I could do it over again I would have loaded up on education, sociology, political science, history, and other basket weaving classes that ask you to memorize PowerPoint slides.

If I were you I'd retake in June. 170+ will help your case to get into better schools.

withoutapaddle wrote:Kinda makes you wonder if law school's would focus more on WE, specific majors (Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors), and well rounded applicants, than just numbers if there was no rankings.

This isn't even a question. Of course they would. Overall rigor of coursework would be considered jointly with any GPA, and non-quantifiable "softs" would play a much more significant role relative to LSAT and UGPA.

withoutapaddle wrote:(Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors).

Lol @ this again

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You have a MD.. Why would you go to law school? I am confused seriously.

midwest17 wrote:

withoutapaddle wrote:(Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors).

Lol @ this again

I took an advanced sociology class because my friends were taking it my Junior year. I went to five classes total and got an A (12 year olds that can memorize PowerPoint slides could pass college level sociology). If I would have tried to pull that same crap in my math classes I would have been screwed.

withoutapaddle wrote:

midwest17 wrote:

withoutapaddle wrote:(Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors).

Lol @ this again

I took an advanced sociology class because my friends were taking it my Junior year. I went to five classes total and got an A (12 year olds that can memorize PowerPoint slides could pass college level sociology). If I would have tried to pull that same crap in my math classes I would have been screwed.

cool story, bro

Nova wrote:

withoutapaddle wrote:

midwest17 wrote:

withoutapaddle wrote:(Sorry but sociology majors don't compare to engineering majors).

Lol @ this again

I took an advanced sociology class because my friends were taking it my Junior year. I went to five classes total and got an A (12 year olds that can memorize PowerPoint slides could pass college level sociology). If I would have tried to pull that same crap in my math classes I would have been screwed.

cool story, bro

Thanks Bro. Trying to get published