How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

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vuccm
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How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:59 pm

Please respond to this question if, and only if, you know - or have a very good idea - to the correct answer.

How do admissions consider a "flagged" score (LSAT taken with accommodations)? I know they say it is viewed with great flexibility - but I'm not buying that. I have my doubts.

For example, is your LSAT score "ignored" (for lack of a better word)? Or is your GPA weighed more and, if so, how much more?

And, pelase,I ask that you be respectful. I have seen posts before that state that people with disbailites can not make it in law shcool. I just read a story about a student currently at HLS who has the same disease as me. He is a top 10 student...so it can be done.

Let's keep the discussion solely about the perception of a flagged score please.

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midwest17
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby midwest17 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:09 pm

Flagged scores don't hurt or help a school's rankings.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:19 pm

midwest17 wrote:Flagged scores don't hurt or help a school's rankings.


That said, how would admissions consider a flagged high score and a flagged low score?

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objection_your_honor
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby objection_your_honor » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:23 pm

vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Flagged scores don't hurt or help a school's rankings.


That said, how would admissions consider a flagged high score and a flagged low score?


If the LSAT score doesn't help or hurt the school's rankings, then it's likely viewed as a "soft" factor. This means the GPA will matter more to them.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:29 pm

objection_your_honor wrote:
vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Flagged scores don't hurt or help a school's rankings.


That said, how would admissions consider a flagged high score and a flagged low score?


If the LSAT score doesn't help or hurt the school's rankings, then it's likely viewed as a "soft" factor. This means the GPA will matter more to them.



Thanks for your help! Mind if I get specific? Tell me what you think...and be honest with me.

Long story short, I didn't get all the accommodations I needed (more specifically, I got less "additional" time than requested); as a result, I struggled to get through the LSAT quick enough. This may not be fair, but I've just accepted that my LSAT will not reflect my fullest potential.

I have a 3.95 from a well-ranked university. I have strong recommendations. I currently work in the legal department for one of the largest financial companies in the world. My legal thesis is currently under consideration for publication. And, finally, my personal statement speaks to how I have overcome the challenges of my disability.

All that said, let's say I score high 140's or low 150's with a "flagged" score. Should I take the year off and try to get that score up (although that would be hard to do without more additional time) or, do you think law schools will put very little weight on my LSAT score and focus on the other parts of my application?

Note: I know I'm not getting into Harvard or Yale, so please speak to this post considering simply a "well-respected" law school in mind for example, a school ranked 62 or 63 etc. etc.

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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby bound » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:36 pm

vuccm wrote:
objection_your_honor wrote:
vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Flagged scores don't hurt or help a school's rankings.


That said, how would admissions consider a flagged high score and a flagged low score?


If the LSAT score doesn't help or hurt the school's rankings, then it's likely viewed as a "soft" factor. This means the GPA will matter more to them.



Thanks for your help! Mind if I get specific? Tell me what you think...and be honest with me.

Long story short, I didn't get all the accommodations I needed (more specifically, I got less "additional" time than requested); as a result, I struggled to get through the LSAT quick enough. This may not be fair, but I've just accepted that my LSAT will not reflect my fullest potential.

I have a 3.95 from a well-ranked university. I have strong recommendations. I currently work in the legal department for one of the largest financial companies in the world. My legal thesis is currently under consideration for publication. And, finally, my personal statement speaks to how I have overcome the challenges of my disability.

All that said, let's say I score high 140's or low 150's with a "flagged" score. Should I take the year off and try to get that score up (although that would be hard to do without more additional time) or, do you think law schools will put very little weight on my LSAT score and focus on the other parts of my application?

Note: I know I'm not getting into Harvard or Yale, so please speak to this post considering simply a "well-respected" law school in mind for example, a school ranked 62 or 63 etc. etc.



You should probably call the school and ask how they use a "flagged" score in their application process. You still want every part of the application to be the best that it can be. So if you think that if you studied more and could do better than the 150's with more time to study, then I would do that. If you are certain that you couldn't do better then it's up to you!

Someone else may have a more exact answer. I'm just coming from the prespective of having you application being the best that it can be all around.

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midwest17
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby midwest17 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:40 pm

A few things:

1. The difficulties of figuring out how much extra time to give people with disabilities is part of why flagged scores are largely discounted. Basically everyone struggles with time on the LSAT, and it's hard to determine how much of that is due to disability vs other causes.

2. What did your study procedure for the LSAT look like?

3. I'm guessing that a score around 150 is going to raise eyebrows at schools worth attending, especially if the most you can say is that you got less extra time than you think you deserve. You don't need to hit schools' medians, because you won't affect their numbers. But you probably need to get up to 160 to have a shot at schools worth going to. That's mostly a guess on my part, though.

4. Once you get out of the T14, rankings are basically irrelevant to whether the school is worth attending. What matters is employment outcomes. Look at Law School Transparency.

5. That said, with that beautiful GPA you should probably shooting for the T14.

6. If you don't go to the T14, your goal can't be just to get in. You need to get a sizable scholarship to a solid regional school in the region where you want to live and work after graduation.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:55 pm

midwest17 wrote:A few things:

1. The difficulties of figuring out how much extra time to give people with disabilities is part of why flagged scores are largely discounted. Basically everyone struggles with time on the LSAT, and it's hard to determine how much of that is due to disability vs other causes.

2. What did your study procedure for the LSAT look like?

3. I'm guessing that a score around 150 is going to raise eyebrows at schools worth attending, especially if the most you can say is that you got less extra time than you think you deserve. You don't need to hit schools' medians, because you won't affect their numbers. But you probably need to get up to 160 to have a shot at schools worth going to. That's mostly a guess on my part, though.

4. Once you get out of the T14, rankings are basically irrelevant to whether the school is worth attending. What matters is employment outcomes. Look at Law School Transparency.

5. That said, with that beautiful GPA you should probably shooting for the T14.

6. If you don't go to the T14, your goal can't be just to get in. You need to get a sizable scholarship to a solid regional school in the region where you want to live and work after graduation.


Thanks, you guys are all giving me the advice I need. No one in my family/friends are lawyers so I am enjoying your input.

Funny you should say that, my past professors are telling me that I should be at a T14 and I should work towards that. Actually there is more to the story than not enough time. I understand that everyone is under a time constraint, so that's why I didn't "fight back" when I wasn't provided with the requested time. But, instead, LSAC just gave me a few extra minutes with the addition of a reader (which I absolutely need to get through all four passages of the reading sections...but I did not need her for the other parts). And that reading comprehension part is what KILLS my score because I have never used a reader before and believe me...its much harder than it sounds. Maybe with more practice I can refine that though.

And my career plan is a bit unconventional; that said, I do not need to go to a T14 (although I would like to) but if I can get a scholarship to a well-respected school, I would take it in a heart beat....actually, that is what I was hoping for.

That said, do you recommend I apply with this flagged score (Assuming it will be in the low 150s) or try to at least get it up by studying another year? (which is the less desirable road as I would like to go next fall ughhh)

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midwest17
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby midwest17 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:03 pm

If you're not worried about application fees, you could apply this year to see what you get. Flagged scores are enough of a wildcard that your cycle will be hard-to-impossible to predict.

However, if you low score was due even in part to unfamiliarity with the testing conditions and accommodations, then you *need* to be prepared to retake and wait if you don't get a good outcome. Find a way to simulate your accommodated testing conditions, and practice that way until it's second nature. In addition to all the standard advice for studying for the LSAT, which you'll find in the LSAT sub forum.

Remember, if you don't go to the T14, then you must go to a school in the market you want to practice in. Regional schools don't place out of their region. This is true even if you have a guaranteed job after graduation. You won't work in that job forever (at least, you can't count on that) so you need to have a useful degree.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:29 pm

midwest17 wrote:If you're not worried about application fees, you could apply this year to see what you get. Flagged scores are enough of a wildcard that your cycle will be hard-to-impossible to predict.

However, if you low score was due even in part to unfamiliarity with the testing conditions and accommodations, then you *need* to be prepared to retake and wait if you don't get a good outcome. Find a way to simulate your accommodated testing conditions, and practice that way until it's second nature. In addition to all the standard advice for studying for the LSAT, which you'll find in the LSAT sub forum.

Remember, if you don't go to the T14, then you must go to a school in the market you want to practice in. Regional schools don't place out of their region. This is true even if you have a guaranteed job after graduation. You won't work in that job forever (at least, you can't count on that) so you need to have a useful degree.


Great advice. As to your question how did i prepare - studied for five months and when i say "study" i mean hot up at 5 everyday abd studied intil i left for work, studied while at work and until about midnight. I studied all day and night on weekends and also had a private tutor. I think your right though, I know how to answer the questions now but I need to adjudt to the testing conditions under accommmodations.

One last question if you don't mind! Do you recommend giving the February LSAT a shot for this time aroun? Or do you think Feb LSAT doesnt matter as much because its so late?

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midwest17
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby midwest17 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:49 pm

vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:If you're not worried about application fees, you could apply this year to see what you get. Flagged scores are enough of a wildcard that your cycle will be hard-to-impossible to predict.

However, if you low score was due even in part to unfamiliarity with the testing conditions and accommodations, then you *need* to be prepared to retake and wait if you don't get a good outcome. Find a way to simulate your accommodated testing conditions, and practice that way until it's second nature. In addition to all the standard advice for studying for the LSAT, which you'll find in the LSAT sub forum.

Remember, if you don't go to the T14, then you must go to a school in the market you want to practice in. Regional schools don't place out of their region. This is true even if you have a guaranteed job after graduation. You won't work in that job forever (at least, you can't count on that) so you need to have a useful degree.


Great advice. As to your question how did i prepare - studied for five months and when i say "study" i mean hot up at 5 everyday abd studied intil i left for work, studied while at work and until about midnight. I studied all day and night on weekends and also had a private tutor. I think your right though, I know how to answer the questions now but I need to adjudt to the testing conditions under accommmodations.

One last question if you don't mind! Do you recommend giving the February LSAT a shot for this time aroun? Or do you think Feb LSAT doesnt matter as much because its so late?


This year, because of weather cancellations at the December test, schools seem receptive towards the February test. But it's also not that much time to prepare. It all depends on how long you think it will take to adjust to the testing conditions.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:59 pm

midwest17 wrote:
vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:If you're not worried about application fees, you could apply this year to see what you get. Flagged scores are enough of a wildcard that your cycle will be hard-to-impossible to predict.

However, if you low score was due even in part to unfamiliarity with the testing conditions and accommodations, then you *need* to be prepared to retake and wait if you don't get a good outcome. Find a way to simulate your accommodated testing conditions, and practice that way until it's second nature. In addition to all the standard advice for studying for the LSAT, which you'll find in the LSAT sub forum.

Remember, if you don't go to the T14, then you must go to a school in the market you want to practice in. Regional schools don't place out of their region. This is true even if you have a guaranteed job after graduation. You won't work in that job forever (at least, you can't count on that) so you need to have a useful degree.


Great advice. As to your question how did i prepare - studied for five months and when i say "study" i mean hot up at 5 everyday abd studied intil i left for work, studied while at work and until about midnight. I studied all day and night on weekends and also had a private tutor. I think your right though, I know how to answer the questions now but I need to adjudt to the testing conditions under accommmodations.

One last question if you don't mind! Do you recommend giving the February LSAT a shot for this time aroun? Or do you think Feb LSAT doesnt matter as much because its so late?


Hmm ok good point. I will begun to prepare because I have time off and if I see I'm making progress I will def take it Feb. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP :)


This year, because of weather cancellations at the December test, schools seem receptive towards the February test. But it's also not that much time to prepare. It all depends on how long you think it will take to adjust to the testing conditions.

Hmm

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:37 pm

midwest17 wrote:
vuccm wrote:
midwest17 wrote:If you're not worried about application fees, you could apply this year to see what you get. Flagged scores are enough of a wildcard that your cycle will be hard-to-impossible to predict.

However, if you low score was due even in part to unfamiliarity with the testing conditions and accommodations, then you *need* to be prepared to retake and wait if you don't get a good outcome. Find a way to simulate your accommodated testing conditions, and practice that way until it's second nature. In addition to all the standard advice for studying for the LSAT, which you'll find in the LSAT sub forum.

Remember, if you don't go to the T14, then you must go to a school in the market you want to practice in. Regional schools don't place out of their region. This is true even if you have a guaranteed job after graduation. You won't work in that job forever (at least, you can't count on that) so you need to have a useful degree.


Great advice. As to your question how did i prepare - studied for five months and when i say "study" i mean hot up at 5 everyday abd studied intil i left for work, studied while at work and until about midnight. I studied all day and night on weekends and also had a private tutor. I think your right though, I know how to answer the questions now but I need to adjudt to the testing conditions under accommmodations.

One last question if you don't mind! Do you recommend giving the February LSAT a shot for this time aroun? Or do you think Feb LSAT doesnt matter as much because its so late?


This year, because of weather cancellations at the December test, schools seem receptive towards the February test. But it's also not that much time to prepare. It all depends on how long you think it will take to adjust to the testing conditions.


Sorry my last post got messed up. I think I am going to focus on studying by revolving my study schedule around fitting for the accommodations given on the actual test day. If I improve, I will take them in Feb.
THANK YOUUU so much for your advice! I'm so relieved that I got someone else's opinion.

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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:38 pm

I think you are headed on the right track. If you got a 3.95 at a "well regarded" university, you definitely have the drive and the intellect to improve your score.

I suggest you work on improvement with these timing/reasoning skills before going to law school even if you get in based on GPA alone. It would be ethically unsound for a school with a 165+ median (T14 and such) to admit someone struggling to break 150 with some accommodations - you are a boost to every school's GPA median, and they wouldn't take a hit in rankings, but it would not be fair to you. This isn't a slant against you at all: it is just that law school exams have similar time pressures to the LSAT (they tend to be ~4 hours and have several questions/sections which you have to break up and time for yourself based on recommendations) and they are also scored a curve, so if the average of your 1L section is a 168 scorer and you are a 148, I imagine a frustrating experience (obviously with <5 pt differences we can't read anything into it, but when we are talking about several standard deviations of delta b/t your score and the median, that is cause for concern). I'm only saying this for your own benefit, and I'm sure you have the ability to improve.

vuccm
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby vuccm » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:02 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I think you are headed on the right track. If you got a 3.95 at a "well regarded" university, you definitely have the drive and the intellect to improve your score.

I suggest you work on improvement with these timing/reasoning skills before going to law school even if you get in based on GPA alone. It would be ethically unsound for a school with a 165+ median (T14 and such) to admit someone struggling to break 150 with some accommodations - you are a boost to every school's GPA median, and they wouldn't take a hit in rankings, but it would not be fair to you. This isn't a slant against you at all: it is just that law school exams have similar time pressures to the LSAT (they tend to be ~4 hours and have several questions/sections which you have to break up and time for yourself based on recommendations) and they are also scored a curve, so if the average of your 1L section is a 168 scorer and you are a 148, I imagine a frustrating experience (obviously with <5 pt differences we can't read anything into it, but when we are talking about several standard deviations of delta b/t your score and the median, that is cause for concern). I'm only saying this for your own benefit, and I'm sure you have the ability to improve.



You're 100% right. I know for a fact that I can improve my score because I don't find the content of the test challenging - I find the accommodations I have been given challenging. But, I need to better prepare for those testing conditions. Thank you for your input! What are your thoughts on the February LSAT? Do you think, assuming I can get my score up, then I still have a good shot for next fall?

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PepperJack
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:06 pm

You can get extra time on LS tests, and at a firm just ask the partner for time and a half. They'd make 50% off more off each client so it's awesome.

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jbagelboy
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Re: How do Admissions view a "flagged" score?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:34 pm

PepperJack wrote:You can get extra time on LS tests, and at a firm just ask the partner for time and a half. They'd make 50% off more off each client so it's awesome.


this is a little harsh.




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