LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

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joeflom
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LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:42 pm

Hi All,

First-time poster here. Thanks in advance for the honest feedback.

My current stats are:

BBA: 3.3 GPA Finance & Accounting (double major)
MS: 3.7 GPA Finance
CPA
1.3 years as a tax accountant
.5 years as an investment banking analyst at a lower middle-market firm (current position)

I plan on applying next year (October 2014) so that I will matriculate Fall of 2015. I will be 27 years old at that time

My question to all of you is what LSAT will I need in order to give me a very solid chance at UPenn, UVA, NYU?

Thanks again!

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objection_your_honor
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby objection_your_honor » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:50 pm

"Very solid chances" don't really exist because of the GPA, but a ~175 gives you a shot:

Image

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Fiero85
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby Fiero85 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:00 pm

Welcome to TLS. The most helpful sites for your question are lawschoolnumbers.com and mylsn.info.

If you go to http://mylsn.info/dispresults.php you can play around some with LSAT scores paired with your GPA to see your chances. Keep in mind that using too narrow of inputs can hamper the sample size and subsequently, the usefulness of the data.

You're gonna have to score very well on the LSAT to make UVA, Penn, or NYU possible. Depending on your definition of "very solid" chances, I'd imagine you'd have to score 175 or up to reach a more-than-likely admit level.

(scooped)

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Philafaler
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby Philafaler » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:04 pm

joeflom wrote:Hi All,

First-time poster here. Thanks in advance for the honest feedback.

My current stats are:

BBA: 3.3 GPA Finance & Accounting (double major)
MS: 3.7 GPA Finance
CPA
1.3 years as a tax accountant
.5 years as an investment banking analyst at a lower middle-market firm (current position)

I plan on applying next year (October 2014) so that I will matriculate Fall of 2015. I will be 27 years old at that time

My question to all of you is what LSAT will I need in order to give me a very solid chance at UPenn, UVA, NYU?

Thanks again!


I know this is off topic, but is there any particular reason you want to leave banking for law?

Cellar-door
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby Cellar-door » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Philafaler wrote:
joeflom wrote:Hi All,

First-time poster here. Thanks in advance for the honest feedback.

My current stats are:

BBA: 3.3 GPA Finance & Accounting (double major)
MS: 3.7 GPA Finance
CPA
1.3 years as a tax accountant
.5 years as an investment banking analyst at a lower middle-market firm (current position)

I plan on applying next year (October 2014) so that I will matriculate Fall of 2015. I will be 27 years old at that time

My question to all of you is what LSAT will I need in order to give me a very solid chance at UPenn, UVA, NYU?

Thanks again!


I know this is off topic, but is there any particular reason you want to leave banking for law?

He hates money and free time, but loves paperwork.

joeflom
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:22 pm

Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:27 pm

Thanks for the insight and the useful websites! I appreciate it. I realize that my UG GPA isn't stellar, but I'm hoping the admissions folk will look past that and give some weight to the other things I've done more recently (i.e. WE, masters, certifications, etc). Obviously, I want to score as high as possible on the LSAT to give me the best shot. Thanks for the guidance.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:36 pm

Cellar-door wrote:
Philafaler wrote:
joeflom wrote:Hi All,

First-time poster here. Thanks in advance for the honest feedback.

My current stats are:

BBA: 3.3 GPA Finance & Accounting (double major)
MS: 3.7 GPA Finance
CPA
1.3 years as a tax accountant
.5 years as an investment banking analyst at a lower middle-market firm (current position)

I plan on applying next year (October 2014) so that I will matriculate Fall of 2015. I will be 27 years old at that time

My question to all of you is what LSAT will I need in order to give me a very solid chance at UPenn, UVA, NYU?

Thanks again!


I know this is off topic, but is there any particular reason you want to leave banking for law?

He hates money and free time, but loves paperwork.



I don't necessarily want to leave banking. After working in banking for a few months I see how important the law is in structuring deals and finance in general. I think getting into one of the aforementioned programs would really complement my finance background and more importantly open bigger and better doors within banking and corporate finance/law. And I do have an extra 30 hours a week to blow on paperwork. Who needs sleep?

Ti Malice
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:29 pm

joeflom wrote:I realize that my UG GPA isn't stellar, but I'm hoping the admissions folk will look past that and give some weight to the other things I've done more recently (i.e. WE, masters, certifications, etc).


They won't. USNWR rankings take LSAT and uGPA into account, so that's what these schools are going to care about. There's nothing uncommon or mind-blowing about those non-numerical factors anyway.

If you hit 170, you're likely in at UVA with an ED app (maybe a 169, with their new median). You could get into Penn via ED with the same score, but odds are not as good. With a 172 or higher, you would be in decent shape. You will probably need at least a 174 to start feeling good about NYU.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:22 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
joeflom wrote:I realize that my UG GPA isn't stellar, but I'm hoping the admissions folk will look past that and give some weight to the other things I've done more recently (i.e. WE, masters, certifications, etc).


They won't. USNWR rankings take LSAT and uGPA into account, so that's what these schools are going to care about. There's nothing uncommon or mind-blowing about those non-numerical factors anyway.

If you hit 170, you're likely in at UVA with an ED app (maybe a 169, with their new median). You could get into Penn via ED with the same score, but odds are not as good. With a 172 or higher, you would be in decent shape. You will probably need at least a 174 to start feeling good about NYU.


Got ya. Thanks for the info!

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twenty
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby twenty » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:04 am

Unfortunately for you, corporate finance and the legal world are fairly distant from each other in terms of career ladders. If you really like banking, I'd stick with it and maybe go for an M7 MBA once you have a couple more years of experience.

If you go to law school, your background will help you, but you'll only be slightly more competitive for top programs than some chump that majored in American Studies and has "beer pong champ 2010 fuck you dartmouth" as a single line on his resume.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:46 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Unfortunately for you, corporate finance and the legal world are fairly distant from each other in terms of career ladders.


Thanks for the response. I don't 100% agree with this statement. I meet/see plenty of professionals in banking, M&A advisory, private equity, and increasingly more c-suite execs with law degrees.

For me, I think most of the appeal comes from the degree's versatility. I feel that a JD has a broader set of opportunities that overlaps nicely with an MBAs set of opportunities, but not vice versa. I plan on keeping my options open though.


twentypercentmore wrote:If you go to law school, your background will help you, but you'll only be slightly more competitive for top programs than some chump that majored in American Studies and has "beer pong champ 2010 fuck you dartmouth" as a single line on his resume.


Haha. So you're saying there's a chance?!

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midwest17
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby midwest17 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:26 pm

Is there a specific job you want for which a JD is a requirement? If no, law school is probably a waste of your time.

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twenty
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby twenty » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:59 pm

joeflom wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Unfortunately for you, corporate finance and the legal world are fairly distant from each other in terms of career ladders.


Thanks for the response. I don't 100% agree with this statement. I meet/see plenty of professionals in banking, M&A advisory, private equity, and increasingly more c-suite execs with law degrees.


Are these folks already MBAs by any chance?

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ScottRiqui
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:22 pm

I put a little more stock in "soft factors" than most people here, but the bottom line is that you're below the 25th GPA percentile for all three schools, so you should really be at/above their 75th LSAT percentile if you want to give the adcomms something solid to justify accepting you. My hunch is that you have a good chance of being accepted into at least one of the three with a 172 LSAT. If you want a solid chance of getting into all three and being able to take your pick, I agree that a 175 is probably closer to what you'd need.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:00 am

twentypercentmore wrote:
joeflom wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Unfortunately for you, corporate finance and the legal world are fairly distant from each other in terms of career ladders.


Thanks for the response. I don't 100% agree with this statement. I meet/see plenty of professionals in banking, M&A advisory, private equity, and increasingly more c-suite execs with law degrees.


Are these folks already MBAs by any chance?



I have seen some with dual degrees, but for the most part they only have JDs (sometimes coupled with an LLM too)

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:02 am

ScottRiqui wrote:I put a little more stock in "soft factors" than most people here, but the bottom line is that you're below the 25th GPA percentile for all three schools, so you should really be at/above their 75th LSAT percentile if you want to give the adcomms something solid to justify accepting you. My hunch is that you have a good chance of being accepted into at least one of the three with a 172 LSAT. If you want a solid chance of getting into all three and being able to take your pick, I agree that a 175 is probably closer to what you'd need.


Got ya. Thanks for the insight. Looks like I better start hitting the books.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:21 am

midwest17 wrote:Is there a specific job you want for which a JD is a requirement? If no, law school is probably a waste of your time.


Can't say I have one specific job I am 100% set on pursuing, but I have to believe it will be business related i.e. Banking, Private Equity, Corporate law. Who is to say that something else won't grab my attention while in school? All I know is attending a top program will allow me to gain interesting and desirable technical knowledge, and open many more doors that I wouldn't have otherwise had.

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midwest17
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby midwest17 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:18 pm

joeflom wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Is there a specific job you want for which a JD is a requirement? If no, law school is probably a waste of your time.


Can't say I have one specific job I am 100% set on pursuing, but I have to believe it will be business related i.e. Banking, Private Equity, Corporate law. Who is to say that something else won't grab my attention while in school? All I know is attending a top program will allow me to gain interesting and desirable technical knowledge, and open many more doors that I wouldn't have otherwise had.


You don't need to know exactly what kind of law you want to practice. But you need to know that you either (a) want to be a lawyer, or (b) want to pursue a job where a JD is at least strongly preferred. If you just want a job where legal knowledge is helpful, there are much cheaper ways than a JD to acquire that knowledge.

Also, the fact that many people who have jobs you want have a JD doesn't mean that a JD will help you get that job. Correlation =/= causality.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:17 pm

midwest17 wrote:
joeflom wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Is there a specific job you want for which a JD is a requirement? If no, law school is probably a waste of your time.


Can't say I have one specific job I am 100% set on pursuing, but I have to believe it will be business related i.e. Banking, Private Equity, Corporate law. Who is to say that something else won't grab my attention while in school? All I know is attending a top program will allow me to gain interesting and desirable technical knowledge, and open many more doors that I wouldn't have otherwise had.


midwest17 wrote:You don't need to know exactly what kind of law you want to practice. But you need to know that you either (a) want to be a lawyer, or (b) want to pursue a job where a JD is at least strongly preferred. If you just want a job where legal knowledge is helpful, there are much cheaper ways than a JD to acquire that knowledge.


I read you. I am definitely somewhere in between (a) and (b). That much I do know right now.

midwest17 wrote:Also, the fact that many people who have jobs you want have a JD doesn't mean that a JD will help you get that job. Correlation =/= causality.


Obviously just earning a JD alone will not automatically hand me job offers in any of the fields I mention, but there is no doubt in my mind that a JD from a top school, while simultaneously laying other groundwork (networking, interview skills, extracurriculars etc) will absolutely help me. The JD may not be the sole reason those people are where they are today, but it certainly influenced their path getting there.

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jbagelboy
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:38 pm

Law school is not a backdoor to high finance. If you wanted those jobs, you'd have to get great grades at a feeder university, do the junior yr summer internship and september interview rounds senior year of college, or lateral through big 4/management consulting, or get a very top mba with prior experience at a smaller bank or as an analyst at a large company.

Attorneys are not bankers. Wanting corporate/transactional law is fine, but as midwest said, dont sign up for 3 years and mountains of debt for a job you wont have when you come out.

joeflom
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby joeflom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:52 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Law school is not a backdoor to high finance. If you wanted those jobs, you'd have to get great grades at a feeder university, do the junior yr summer internship and september interview rounds senior year of college, or lateral through big 4/management consulting, or get a very top mba with prior experience at a smaller bank or as an analyst at a large company.

Attorneys are not bankers. Wanting corporate/transactional law is fine, but as midwest said, dont sign up for 3 years and mountains of debt for a job you wont have when you come out.



I know all about the IB recruiting process and the typical path to associate at the bulge bracket and boutique firms. They, along with the big 4 and management consultancies, explicitly state on their job descriptions, right along side of MBA, that JDs are wanted. I see/talk to bankers with JDs all of the time. Investment banks take english and history majors out of undergrad all of the time for christsake and you're going to try and tell me that someone with a top law degree (and in my case previous IB experience) will never get an IB job? That is just asinine. I'm not even saying I want to go back to IB, but I know I will have plenty of options if I decide to go the JD route.

Personally, I would rather spend the extra money and time to learn corporate/transaction law then get an MBA and have half of my courses be general management and marketing.

cronos2546
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby cronos2546 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:51 am

joeflom wrote:Hi All,

First-time poster here. Thanks in advance for the honest feedback.

My current stats are:

BBA: 3.3 GPA Finance & Accounting (double major)
MS: 3.7 GPA Finance
CPA
1.3 years as a tax accountant
.5 years as an investment banking analyst at a lower middle-market firm (current position)

I plan on applying next year (October 2014) so that I will matriculate Fall of 2015. I will be 27 years old at that time

My question to all of you is what LSAT will I need in order to give me a very solid chance at UPenn, UVA, NYU?

Thanks again!


First off, congrats, this thread made a long time follower of TLS step out of the shadows.

Second, why not pursue the CFA?

Third, are you considering the JD/MBA? Have you already taken the GMAT?

I'm finishing my CPA (3/4), work in financial reporting (no grad school), and plan on law school in few years.

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jbagelboy
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:23 pm

joeflom wrote:I see/talk to bankers with JDs all of the time. Investment banks take english and history majors out of undergrad all of the time for christsake and you're going to try and tell me that someone with a top law degree (and in my case previous IB experience) will never get an IB job? That is just asinine.


I think you are missing the point. It isn't about specific skills, it's the nature of the hiring and recruitment process. And if you have prior IB experience, that changes the variables and you are much more likely to be able to lateral back in. If you'd mentioned that before, it would be different. Sure, come to law school and try to swing it. It happens, but its sufficiently rare but I wouldn't base going into substantial debt over it. If your parents are paying and you just want a JD for a blank slate, power to you.
joeflom wrote:Personally, I would rather spend the extra money and time to learn corporate/transaction law then get an MBA and have half of my courses be general management and marketing.


I will allow the 3L's who have taken these classes to comment on this, but even as a 1L, I'm skeptical about the whole "spend $300K to learn about the area of law" thing.

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RCO2012
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby RCO2012 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
joeflom wrote:I see/talk to bankers with JDs all of the time. Investment banks take english and history majors out of undergrad all of the time for christsake and you're going to try and tell me that someone with a top law degree (and in my case previous IB experience) will never get an IB job? That is just asinine.


I think you are missing the point. It isn't about specific skills, it's the nature of the hiring and recruitment process. And if you have prior IB experience, that changes the variables and you are much more likely to be able to lateral back in. If you'd mentioned that before, it would be different. Sure, come to law school and try to swing it. It happens, but its sufficiently rare but I wouldn't base going into substantial debt over it. If your parents are paying and you just want a JD for a blank slate, power to you.
joeflom wrote:Personally, I would rather spend the extra money and time to learn corporate/transaction law then get an MBA and have half of my courses be general management and marketing.


I will allow the 3L's who have taken these classes to comment on this, but even as a 1L, I'm skeptical about the whole "spend $300K to learn about the area of law" thing.


If you are in a position where you need to know this, it will be taught to you, and anything that you would learn in law school that would be applicable would most likely be learned over the course of your first year and a half in that position. Though, I've learned that once someone is set on going to ls it is difficult to convince them otherwise. So, if you really just want the knowledge and not the prestige or the ability to go to big law, why not go to a regional school with decent employment prospects in corporations, and not rack up the debt?

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RCO2012
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Re: LSAT score needed w/ credentials for UPenn, UVA, NYU

Postby RCO2012 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Also, I wouldn't count on your softs to push you over the edge. They won't get you into any school that your numbers wouldn't land you at, so concentrate on the LSAT.




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