168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

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captainamerica18
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168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Coming from small, private UG. Average softs, LORs, and PS. The 168 is a retake (163 the first time) Would most likely go to UChicago regardless of aid.

My questions are: What are my odds with the ED? Does applying ED pretty much guarantee that I will be paying sticker if accepted? Would I have a shot at receiving a scholarship if I were to be accepted RD with these numbers?

I really don't see me having a prayer at Stanford, and that would be the only school I would choose over UChicago. Thus, I do not have many reservations about the ED, just curious as to what the general consensus of my chances would be.

Also, would it help or hurt to write a "Why Chicago" addendum? I feel like the ED kind of speaks for itself.

I appreciate any insight. Thanks!

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jbagelboy
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:06 am

I think you're probably in with an ED to Chicago. While Stanford is plausible, chances aren't great, especially considering this cycle indicated they may start giving more than 2 shits about the LSAT. Your RD chances at Chicago are probably just under 50/50. Then again, people with your numbers usually scored ~$10K/year from UChi in merit aid via regular decision (if they got in). As a betting man (and a broke one), I'd take the RD odds and pocket the $30,000 -- or go to a lower T14 with $$$$. But if you prefer the certainty of admission and you'd take UChi over other schools with more scholarship anyway, go ahead and ED.

Oh, and yea, if your applying to a binding early decision program... no need to write a "Why Chicago".

NanaP
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby NanaP » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:35 am

jbagelboy wrote: especially considering this cycle indicated they may start giving more than 2 shits about the LSAT



What do you mean by this? Stanford's median is pretty high, how could they not put much weight on the LSAT?

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jbagelboy
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:57 am

NanaP wrote:
jbagelboy wrote: especially considering this cycle indicated they may start giving more than 2 shits about the LSAT



What do you mean by this? Stanford's median is pretty high, how could they not put much weight on the LSAT?


Everything is relative. Compared to other top schools, i.e. Harvard, Columbia, and Yale, Stanford traditionally placed less emphasis on the LSAT. They could maintain a 2 or 3 pt higher median if they prioritized the exam. However, this year, SLS *could* be the one school that actually increased its LSAT median (official figures haven't been released yet, See Spivey)

captainamerica18
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:02 am

Also, do you think I would sound like I was just making excuses if I wrote an addendum explaining the retake? No real excuse. I was ill, but it seems like everyone who retakes was conveniently sick on the day of the initial exam. Does the jump speak for itself/will they simply just look at the highest score?

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby iamgeorgebush » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:36 am

jbagelboy wrote:
NanaP wrote:
jbagelboy wrote: especially considering this cycle indicated they may start giving more than 2 shits about the LSAT



What do you mean by this? Stanford's median is pretty high, how could they not put much weight on the LSAT?


Everything is relative. Compared to other top schools, i.e. Harvard, Columbia, and Yale, Stanford traditionally placed less emphasis on the LSAT. They could maintain a 2 or 3 pt higher median if they prioritized the exam. However, this year, SLS *could* be the one school that actually increased its LSAT median (official figures haven't been released yet, See Spivey)

I think SLS's LSAT median has increased by one point...? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... XZnc#gid=0

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gb47
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby gb47 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:07 am

The Stanford data from the spreadsheet came from Spivey's source, and is still considered to be "unofficial" (at least as far as I know).

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Toby Ziegler » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:20 am

Why only U Chicago or Stanford?

captainamerica18
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:39 am

I will be applying to the entire t-14 (minus Yale, Columbia, and Northwestern), but there are few scenarios where I would turn down an acceptance to UChi. Those exceptions would be acceptance to Harvard (haha), acceptance to Stanford, or $$ to NYU. Of those, I tend to think getting into Stanford would be the most likely (while still pretty unlikely).

I think UChi offers so many opportunities (potential lifetime earnings, ability to be nationally competitive for jobs, strong in PI, BigLaw and clerkships (I'm still pretty open to anything), and the ability to develop relationships with profs due to small class size). That's why chicago seems to be the most attractive (while still realistic) option for me and why I am leaning toward the ED.

If I am making some incorrect assumptions or seem to be misled, please let me know. I am admittedly naive about this whole process.

Thanks for all the comments thus far!!

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Toby Ziegler » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:57 am

captainamerica18 wrote:I will be applying to the entire t-14 (minus Yale, Columbia, and Northwestern), but there are few scenarios where I would turn down an acceptance to UChi. Those exceptions would be acceptance to Harvard (haha), acceptance to Stanford, or $$ to NYU. Of those, I tend to think getting into Stanford would be the most likely (while still pretty unlikely).

I think UChi offers so many opportunities (potential lifetime earnings, ability to be nationally competitive for jobs, strong in PI, BigLaw and clerkships (I'm still pretty open to anything), and the ability to develop relationships with profs due to small class size). That's why chicago seems to be the most attractive (while still realistic) option for me and why I am leaning toward the ED.

If I am making some incorrect assumptions or seem to be misled, please let me know. I am admittedly naive about this whole process.

Thanks for all the comments thus far!!

When I read your thread title I thought of Berkeley. Your numbers are (seemingly) ideal for Berk.
You could always retake for a 172+ and be competitive for the Ruby scholarship at UChi.
But I think you are on the right track with applying broadly and then having options/scholarship negotiations.

captainamerica18
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:27 pm

When you mention scholarship options/negotiations, are you suggesting that I do not ED to Chicago? (As EDing would eliminate negotiations and probably most chances at a scholarship) I am weary to apply RD, because as much as I would love any type of scholarship to Chicago, I feel like I am taking a huge risk of being dinged by not applying ED.

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jbagelboy
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:10 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:I will be applying to the entire t-14 (minus Yale, Columbia, and Northwestern), but there are few scenarios where I would turn down an acceptance to UChi. Those exceptions would be acceptance to Harvard (haha), acceptance to Stanford, or $$ to NYU. Of those, I tend to think getting into Stanford would be the most likely (while still pretty unlikely).

I think UChi offers so many opportunities (potential lifetime earnings, ability to be nationally competitive for jobs, strong in PI, BigLaw and clerkships (I'm still pretty open to anything), and the ability to develop relationships with profs due to small class size). That's why chicago seems to be the most attractive (while still realistic) option for me and why I am leaning toward the ED.

If I am making some incorrect assumptions or seem to be misled, please let me know. I am admittedly naive about this whole process.

Thanks for all the comments thus far!!


Why Harvard, UChi, NYU, Penn but no Columbia?

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Otunga
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Otunga » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:16 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:When you mention scholarship options/negotiations, are you suggesting that I do not ED to Chicago? (As EDing would eliminate negotiations and probably most chances at a scholarship) I am weary to apply RD, because as much as I would love any type of scholarship to Chicago, I feel like I am taking a huge risk of being dinged by not applying ED.


You have basically a 1/4 chance of getting in with RD, and the scholarship wouldn't be much. Why all the debt though if you can get much better money at a UVA or Cornell? Presumably you want some ultra-competitive jobs.

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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:43 pm

I figured Columbia wouldn't even consider me with my low LSAT so my thought was to not waste the application fee.

As far as debt, it was a huge concern of mine and I understand that I will be well over $200,000 in the red when it is all said and done. I guess I figure it is an investment. It seems like UChicago can give me substantially more opportunities than a UVA or a Cornell. If that is the case, then I would be willing to pay $100k more in the short run in hopes that it would pay off way more in the long run.

My question is: Is that the case? Is a JD from Chicago able to open more doors than one from UVA, Cornell, Michigan, etc.?

Thanks!

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Toby Ziegler » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:31 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:I figured Columbia wouldn't even consider me with my low LSAT so my thought was to not waste the application fee.

As far as debt, it was a huge concern of mine and I understand that I will be well over $200,000 in the red when it is all said and done. I guess I figure it is an investment. It seems like UChicago can give me substantially more opportunities than a UVA or a Cornell. If that is the case, then I would be willing to pay $100k more in the short run in hopes that it would pay off way more in the long run.

My question is: Is that the case? Is a JD from Chicago able to open more doors than one from UVA, Cornell, Michigan, etc.?

Thanks!

I am going to let bagel boy answer the Columbia question. Chicago does have better placement stats, but 250k in debt verses 75k is quite different (yes those are arbitrary figures). Point is going to Chicago and paying sticker means you need big law to pay that back, or a job that is LRAP eligible, and I don't know how good Chicago's LRAP is, maybe someone can chime in regarding that.

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jbagelboy
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:50 pm

Travis12 wrote:
captainamerica18 wrote:I figured Columbia wouldn't even consider me with my low LSAT so my thought was to not waste the application fee.

As far as debt, it was a huge concern of mine and I understand that I will be well over $200,000 in the red when it is all said and done. I guess I figure it is an investment. It seems like UChicago can give me substantially more opportunities than a UVA or a Cornell. If that is the case, then I would be willing to pay $100k more in the short run in hopes that it would pay off way more in the long run.

My question is: Is that the case? Is a JD from Chicago able to open more doors than one from UVA, Cornell, Michigan, etc.?

Thanks!

I am going to let bagel boy answer the Columbia question. Chicago does have better placement stats, but 250k in debt verses 75k is quite different (yes those are arbitrary figures). Point is going to Chicago and paying sticker means you need big law to pay that back, or a job that is LRAP eligible, and I don't know how good Chicago's LRAP is, maybe someone can chime in regarding that.


I've been summoned.

I agree that chances at CLS are slim (LSN shows 0/13 with those numbers), but Harvard is an even tougher nut to crack and you didn't exclude it. Conventional wisdom with falling medians would be, give it a shot, but I understand the resistance since Chicago is definitely much more friendly to your numbers and provides comparable opportunities.

CC are not worth $100K more than UVA or Cornell IMO. Chicago/Columbia have roughly 10% more placement power into prestigious legal jobs than the lower T14. That was worth $40K for me, but not a hundred thousand. Depends on your understanding of risk and your aversion to debt.

captainamerica18
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:55 pm

What do you think my odds of getting a scholarship at the lower end of t14 are and how much do you think I would get? Because while I am inclined to agree with you the Chicago isn't worth $100k more than Cornell, that is assuming I would get $100k to Cornell which I didn't think was a high possibility.

This is complicated with my choice of EDing to Chicago. Because I have to determine if my odds are good enough to get a big scholly to a lower t14. If they are not great, then I would not be paying $100k more to go to UChicago if I were to get admitted ED without any scholarship.

This is what is keeping me up at night. If I didn't think the ED would boost me, then I would have an easier decision, but I feel like it might be the extra something I need to be accepted.

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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby iamgeorgebush » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:56 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:What do you think my odds of getting a scholarship at the lower end of t14 are and how much do you think I would get? Because while I am inclined to agree with you the Chicago isn't worth $100k more than Cornell, that is assuming I would get $100k to Cornell which I didn't think was a high possibility.

This is complicated with my choice of EDing to Chicago. Because I have to determine if my odds are good enough to get a big scholly to a lower t14. If they are not great, then I would not be paying $100k more to go to UChicago if I were to get admitted ED without any scholarship.

This is what is keeping me up at night. If I didn't think the ED would boost me, then I would have an easier decision, but I feel like it might be the extra something I need to be accepted.

http://www.mylsn.info + adjust for this being a slightly more favorable cycle

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Otunga
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Otunga » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:10 pm

From what I've heard OP, it's tough to quantify scholarships even with using mylsn. I think it's best to just give it an approximate range. For example, I've got numbers like yours, and I've played around with the ranges a good amount (expanding and narrowing the LSAT and GPA ranges), and it appears the range for Cornell scholarships is between 70 and 100k in terms of averages. But granted, we don't know if everybody's reporting scholarships, so it's difficult to make concrete assessments.

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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:19 pm

I've played around with these sites as well and it seems to me like a small percentage of applicants (especially ones with my numbers) actually can snag the big $$$. Is this the case, or am I underestimating my odds of receiving a hefty scholarship from 7-14?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:21 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:I've played around with these sites as well and it seems to me like a small percentage of applicants (especially ones with my numbers) actually can snag the big $$$. Is this the case, or am I underestimating my odds of receiving a hefty scholarship from 7-14?

A lot of people just don't get around to reporting scholarships. Also the applicant pool has declined so rapidly that data from just 2-3 years ago will underestimate your chances for both money and admission.

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Otunga
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Otunga » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:22 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:I've played around with these sites as well and it seems to me like a small percentage of applicants (especially ones with my numbers) actually can snag the big $$$. Is this the case, or am I underestimating my odds of receiving a hefty scholarship from 7-14?


I'd like to know this too. Are these applicants with exceptional softs? Do most people just not report scholarships? I find it hard to believe 3.9X/high 160s would equal sticker at Cornell.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:25 pm

Otunga wrote:
captainamerica18 wrote:I've played around with these sites as well and it seems to me like a small percentage of applicants (especially ones with my numbers) actually can snag the big $$$. Is this the case, or am I underestimating my odds of receiving a hefty scholarship from 7-14?


I'd like to know this too. Are these applicants with exceptional softs? Do most people just not report scholarships? I find it hard to believe 3.9X/high 160s would equal sticker at Cornell.

Like I said I think it's just underreporting. Many people don't ever get around to updating their profiles, but many more won't go back and update with scholarship info. If you click on a profile and there is no scholly info for any school that's almost certainly the reason.

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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby captainamerica18 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:59 pm

So do you think it would be worth the risk of not getting accepted to Chicago to not ED and take my chances in hopefully getting a big scholarship? It seems like that is big risk, big reward.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: 168/3.92 ED at Chicago?

Postby Toby Ziegler » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:25 pm

captainamerica18 wrote:So do you think it would be worth the risk of not getting accepted to Chicago to not ED and take my chances in hopefully getting a big scholarship? It seems like that is big risk, big reward.

That's what I would do. And then if I didn't like how things panned out, I would reapply next cycle with another year of work experience under my belt.




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