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jbagelboy
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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:10 pm

The vitriol in this thread aside, I'm a little curious about your application/life approach: you want admissions to view the poverty and lack of opportunity that colored your upbringing, along with the significant personal struggles you encountered and overcame in large part because of your ethnic and class origin, as positive "softs", BUT you don't want to explicitly mention your tribal affiliation in one area of the application. Seems counter intuitive, like you're doing everything a normal URM does and circling around the idea, but ignoring the nominal label. IMHO, either go for it 110% and own your identity, or don't mention your life struggles/SOB story at all and just see where a 3.8/180 from Clemson takes you.

Broad strokes speaking, URM applications are strongest (and the boost most relevant) when it is accompanied by all the features of your application that you will present in your PS and other materials and that you indicate should enshrine your already great grades in an even greater halo. The people reviewing your application at the top schools are quite intelligent, and fully capable of figuring out what your real schtick is from the details you present in your app. In other words, if you tell your story, they will know you're NA whether you mark it or not.

I think you should be proud of your accomplishments in the face of adversity regardless of your political opposition to a particular program. I might not think affirmative action in the very suspect, seemingly arbitrary way it operates in university admissions is constitutionally valid, meritocratic, good public policy, ect., but I certainly don't hold it against the individuals who benefit from it, and if I were in their position I would play with the cards I was dealt (the worst type of people are those who lie about or exaggerate their status to gain an edge).

At the end of the day, enjoy Harvard or Yale Law.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:39 pm

I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby BVest » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:59 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:I have some other softs, but I don't want to bore you guys. I am curious about my chances at various schools. Obviously my dream schools would be HYS, but I've heard their floor is 3.8 so I don't know if it's worth the cost of application (not cheap when you make just below the poverty line). Do I have okay chances at the other schools? Do you think I have any opportunities for money at any T14's and if not, which schools do I have the best chance for some money?

Thank you for taking the time to read all of this. It means a lot.


By the numbers, Yale is the only school where I would have any question at all about admission, but you've got a good story. And you should expect money pretty much everywhere as well (though maybe not HYS), though if you dip too low in the pool it's possible you get waitlisted for YP, but you'd probably have to give the adcomms an excuse to do that like a bad personal statement. (Not to mention, at this point in the cycle, you shouldn't be wasting your time/money below T14 or even too deep in the T14 before you start getting dings.)

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:09 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

What on earth does Eliot Spitzer and your opinion of him have to do with OP's chances at HYS?

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Pancakes12 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:16 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

What on earth does Eliot Spitzer and your opinion of him have to do with OP's chances at HYS?


I'm wondering the same.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby MoMettaMonk » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:17 pm

Yeah Bizzy lost me there.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby californiauser » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

What on earth does Eliot Spitzer and your opinion of him have to do with OP's chances at HYS?


lmao. This thread is gold.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:44 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

What on earth does Eliot Spitzer and your opinion of him have to do with OP's chances at HYS?


The point is don't be an idiot like Spitzer. And that scoring real high on the LSAT isn't the best indicator of intelligence as evidenced by Spitzer's stupidity. OP, Spitzer attended Harvard Law, so maybe you should attend Stanford or Yale in order to not have bad luck or anything.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:46 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:I am surprised no one has stated the obvious: You are one of the highest scoring minorities in the history of the LSAT. You might be the only Native American who has ever scored a 180. Eliot Spitzer, the former Governor of New York, scored a 180 too. Don`t go down in flames like he did for soliciting prostitutes. It really sucks because the guy would have been a great president. He stuck it to white collar thugs in New York like no other guy has before him. The guy is a legend. He would have been prepping for a presidential run in 2016 right now, but it all went down the drain.

What on earth does Eliot Spitzer and your opinion of him have to do with OP's chances at HYS?


The point is don't be an idiot like Spitzer. And that scoring real high on the LSAT isn't the best indicator of intelligence as evidenced by Spitzer's stupidity. OP, Spitzer attended Harvard Law, so maybe you should attend Stanford or Yale in order to not have bad luck or anything.

Yet again, nothing to do with the OP's actual question.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Pancakes12 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:55 pm

This is getting werid. But I am having hard time believing OP isn't a flame... if you definitely aren't going to use your NA status, why mention it in the OP? It seems you're just trying to bait people.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Otunga » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:56 pm

Pancakes12 wrote:This is getting werid. But I am having hard time believing OP isn't a flame... if you definitely aren't going to use your NA status, why mention it in the OP? It seems you're just trying to bait people.


Possibly. A 3.8/180 should have a fairly predictable cycle outside of HYS. But of course, people ask about their predictable cycles all the time.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:00 pm

Otunga wrote:
Pancakes12 wrote:This is getting werid. But I am having hard time believing OP isn't a flame... if you definitely aren't going to use your NA status, why mention it in the OP? It seems you're just trying to bait people.


Possibly. A 3.8/180 should have a fairly predictable cycle outside of HYS. But of course, people ask about their predictable cycles all the time.


These threads on TLS usually are the worst ones. Just apply OP. You cannot do anything about your chances at this point. These threads rarely serve any useful purpose. I had to spice things up and make the connection between Spitzer and OP. You guys are like Cody and Haggar on Final Fight Guy for Super Nintendo-- blood brothers fighting for a good cause.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Pancakes12 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:59 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Pancakes12 wrote:This is getting werid. But I am having hard time believing OP isn't a flame... if you definitely aren't going to use your NA status, why mention it in the OP? It seems you're just trying to bait people.


I guess it could seem that way. I listed it because you're supposed to say if you're a URM or not. I am, so I told the truth, but I also said I would not be listing myself as one. Not that complicated.


Your moral compass is so strong that you wouldn't feel right posting without mentioning it? I find it hard to believe you wouldn't expect a backlash.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby ScottRiqui » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:06 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Pancakes12 wrote:This is getting werid. But I am having hard time believing OP isn't a flame... if you definitely aren't going to use your NA status, why mention it in the OP? It seems you're just trying to bait people.


I guess it could seem that way. I listed it because you're supposed to say if you're a URM or not. I am, so I told the truth, but I also said I would not be listing myself as one. Not that complicated.


It should be obvious that we don't give a shit on a personal level whether you're a URM - we just need the information to better assess your chances. If you knew from the start that you weren't going to be claiming URM status in your applications, you'd have been better off just putting "non-URM" in the OP.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:26 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:The vitriol in this thread aside, I'm a little curious about your application/life approach: you want admissions to view the poverty and lack of opportunity that colored your upbringing, along with the significant personal struggles you encountered and overcame in large part because of your ethnic and class origin, as positive "softs", BUT you don't want to explicitly mention your tribal affiliation in one area of the application. Seems counter intuitive, like you're doing everything a normal URM does and circling around the idea, but ignoring the nominal label. IMHO, either go for it 110% and own your identity, or don't mention your life struggles/SOB story at all and just see where a 3.8/180 from Clemson takes you.

Broad strokes speaking, URM applications are strongest (and the boost most relevant) when it is accompanied by all the features of your application that you will present in your PS and other materials and that you indicate should enshrine your already great grades in an even greater halo. The people reviewing your application at the top schools are quite intelligent, and fully capable of figuring out what your real schtick is from the details you present in your app. In other words, if you tell your story, they will know you're NA whether you mark it or not.

I think you should be proud of your accomplishments in the face of adversity regardless of your political opposition to a particular program. I might not think affirmative action in the very suspect, seemingly arbitrary way it operates in university admissions is constitutionally valid, meritocratic, good public policy, ect., but I certainly don't hold it against the individuals who benefit from it, and if I were in their position I would play with the cards I was dealt (the worst type of people are those who lie about or exaggerate their status to gain an edge).

At the end of the day, enjoy Harvard or Yale Law.


I'm glad you wrote on here Bagelboy, I've always enjoyed your posts in other forums. I certainly don't intend for it to be a sob story. Instead, I'd consider it an optimistic story. I've done pretty well in academia and life despite having to viciously fight for every inch of success. My cancer is the reason for my lower GPA freshman year and my working throughout college is an actual accomplishment. Who my dad chose to marry is not. I also think it's kinda insulting. Also, there are some brilliant NAs out there, I'd be shocked if I was the only 180. But I don't want to argue about AA, that's just my opinion and it's not going to change.

I thank you for your chances, I just hope you're right. :)

PS- I'll try my best to keep my prostitute soliciting on the down-low since Eliot Spitzer is so important to you Bizzy.


I agree, its incredibly motivational. I think you have a great story. Optimistic and motivational are two key ingredients of an effective admissions SOB story - overcoming obstacles, incredible personal hardship (which rationalizes a "bad" freshmen year), high achievement despite that "vicious fight for every inch" (btw don't say that in your application its a bit over the top) - I suppose its not "pity" you are searching for, more respect and awe, but its the same ingredients. I don't mean that in a derogatory way at all. Its just definitely a particular angle of approach to LS applications, distinct from wealthy people talking about how their exotic and culturally resplendent vacations abroad as a child and that expensive MA in cambridgeshire made them so worldly, trilingual, ect., or the IP student going on about his start-up and all the cool stuff he's learned about VC's and corporations and tax and patents and what an asset he/she thinks a legal education would be. Again, you'll do great: just apply and watch the acceptances and $$ role in.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Finnpower » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:08 pm

To the OP:

Although this post may have tendencies of self-congratulatory striverdom

I want you to mark NA status on your box. You will probably not listen to me or change your mind. However, I think if you are really as good as you seem in this forum you are doing a disservice to the REST OF US by minimizing your chances of being admitted to HYS. Obviously the chances that you will have a job with impact will increase at these schools;

TL;DR - I would rather see a cancer survivor, someone who overcame poverty admitted to Yale than any trust fund baby K-JD. Please check that box.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby iamgeorgebush » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:32 pm

Finnpower wrote:To the OP:

Although this post may have tendencies of self-congratulatory striverdom

I want you to mark NA status on your box. You will probably not listen to me or change your mind. However, I think if you are really as good as you seem in this forum you are doing a disservice to the REST OF US by minimizing your chances of being admitted to HYS. Obviously the chances that you will have a job with impact will increase at these schools;

TL;DR - I would rather see a cancer survivor, someone who overcame poverty admitted to Yale than any trust fund baby K-JD. Please check that box.

+1

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby teampeeta » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:27 am

MistakenGenius wrote:
I know all about law school numbers, because I've been around on this forum for a while. However, I am a splitter for the very top schools and have unusual softs that might make a small difference in admissions.

LSAC GPA- 3.79
LSAT- 180
I am Native American (and registered with the Cherokee), but will not be listing my race because of my views on affirmative action, so think of me as a non-urm. I know my chances skyrocket as a URM, but I want to go to law school on my own merits.

I have some other softs, but I don't want to bore you guys. I am curious about my chances at various schools. Obviously my dream schools would be HYS, but I've heard their floor is 3.8 so I don't know if it's worth the cost of application (not cheap when you make just below the poverty line). Do I have okay chances at the other schools? Do you think I have any opportunities for money at any T14's and if not, which schools do I have the best chance for some money?



1. I would argue that there are non-numerical qualifications that are incredibly important in admissions. Your race and experiences related to it will probably make you a member of the class who is different/ brings unique perspectives to your reading, to class discussions, and whatever extra-curricular activities you pursue that (hopefully) will enrich the school you go to. In that case, you (inclusive of your racial background) are making a positive contribution to your law school community. I don't think listing your race and benefiting from AA means that you wouldn't be accepted "on your own merits"- it just means that there's more to creating a successful law school class than going down a list of people's LSAT scores and GPAs and admitting people with the highest numbers irrespective of their other qualities. IMO, given how competitive the admissions process is, it's naive not to use every lawful tool at your disposal to achieve your goals, especially when you're competing against others who are. But it's your life.

2. 3.8 is definitely not the floor for HYS. If you go on LSN, you'll see that there are lots of people (minorities and non-minorities) who were accepted at HYS with GPAs below 3.8 and LSAT scores lower than your 180. Sounds like you should apply to me.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby Kimikho » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:58 am

slackademic wrote:Look, I don't know why people start these threads. If you have an interesting life story AND amazing stats, then why bother asking? So a 3.8ish isn't ZOMG at these schools. It's still very, very good. No one here can answer your question and it's irrelevant to whether you'll apply. Can you honestly tell me that any response on here would convince you not to apply to HYS or any other institutions you'd otherwise apply to?

If the answer to the above question is no, then the post is masturbation.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby phillywc » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:03 am

scoobers wrote:
slackademic wrote:Look, I don't know why people start these threads. If you have an interesting life story AND amazing stats, then why bother asking? So a 3.8ish isn't ZOMG at these schools. It's still very, very good. No one here can answer your question and it's irrelevant to whether you'll apply. Can you honestly tell me that any response on here would convince you not to apply to HYS or any other institutions you'd otherwise apply to?

If the answer to the above question is no, then the post is masturbation.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby koalacity » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:52 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:These schools will just give me an acceptance letter or a handout in exchange for being able to check off a little box. My dad worked 16 hours a day when I was a child to provide for my family and so we didn't have to have welfare or food stamps. I could never live with myself to spit on that sacrifice. Just my opinion.

TwentyPercent, I might follow your advice about discussing it in a personal statement. That way it is just in a statement about myself, not a box which will give me an unfair advantage.

OP, I like your chances at HYS even without disclosing your URM status (I strongly disagree with your decision, but it is your decision). You have a very unique and compelling story and a wholly legitimate explanation for the low (by HYS standards) GPA, not to mention your 180.

However, I would not reference the bolded text above in your PS or DS. In my opinion (and granted, I am a mere 0L), referencing welfare/food stamps/other government assistance in such a seemingly contemptuous manner is likely to rub at least some adcomms the wrong way. I'm not going to get into a discussion on how food stamp programs largely benefit the working poor (vs. so-called "welfare queens," the existence of which is questionable), but I would strongly recommend that you avoid potentially bias-provoking statements like that. Would it be enough to sink the rest of your fabulous application? Unlikely, but I personally wouldn't risk it.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby rapstar » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:25 pm

OP,

First, congrats on the 180. You are likely the smartest person to ever attend Clemson.

Second, I would bet a month's salary to a day's pay that you will get into H, and you are certainly better than even money at Y and S.

Third, I respect your Clarence Thomas view on AA.

Fourth, You will get full-rides from a number of T-14 schools. If HYorS will leave you with considerable debt, then IMO, you should strongly consider taking a full-ride elsewhere. I don't know what your career goals are, but if you do well at any T-14 (and even more so, any T-6 or T-10, both of which you will likely receive full rides from), then virtually everything will remain available to you.

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Re: 3.79, 180- Chances-Unusual Softs

Postby 0heL » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:28 pm

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Last edited by 0heL on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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