162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

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Criteslaw
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162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:09 pm

A bit of background:

Graduated from Michigan with a 3.27 in Economics, took the LSAT 2x both 162s which was extremely frustrating. I had been PT'ing in the high 160's and low 170's. Just retook in October and got a 165. My most recent PT's were all in 170's with a peak of 175.

My big problem is sleeping the night before the test. I have yet to take an official LSAT with sleep the night before. I just can't fall asleep at all, and it obviously slays my scores.

Currently, I have a job as an analyst at a Fortune 500, but law school is my dream. Do I see a sleep consultant and retake in December? I would guess that my realistic score under testing conditions is 168-172, as I have taken pretty much every available practice test.

If I retake in December, when do I apply?

I would love to go to a T14 (wouldn't we all) and I have the intellectual capacity and testing capability, so I am in an extremely frustrating position.

Alternately, do I apply right now, use the 165 and go to a school like Emory/Notre Dame/Minn etc and try transferring or do I go even further down the list and aim at a transfer?

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jbagelboy
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:26 pm

Sorry about the sleep/stress issues.

Don't matriculate with the intent to transfer. If you attend one of those regional schools, be prepared to work for what you are making now (presumably $45-55K) in that region - Atlanta, Minneapolis, ect.

I've been seeing people on TLS reporting these great jobs out of college with sub-3.5 (and in this case sub-3.3) grades. I mean maybe this is a good sign of economic improvement in the BA/BS job market, because banks, consulting firms, and major companies weren't hiring below A- average students a few years ago (even from decent schools like Michigan) without some family contact or other extenuating circumstance. Anyway, its still probably pretty rare, and the great part of your situation, which you would be totally obviated by applying to grad school, is that basically no one will ask for your lackluster grades again after your first serious FT position. Its the quality of your work product and employer reference that will matter. I dont really understand why you would give up this relative blank slate for mountains of debt and a very tenuous chance at more lucrative employment opportunities than what you have now. Just my 2 cents.

I would stay in your current job until you have an LSAT score that would achieve a T-14 school at a desirable price, or a regional school for near free in a market you could see yourself staying in an extended period of time

20141023
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:29 pm

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Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:55 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Sorry about the sleep/stress issues.

Don't matriculate with the intent to transfer. If you attend one of those regional schools, be prepared to work for what you are making now (presumably $45-55K) in that region - Atlanta, Minneapolis, ect.

I've been seeing people on TLS reporting these great jobs out of college with sub-3.5 (and in this case sub-3.3) grades. I mean maybe this is a good sign of economic improvement in the BA/BS job market, because banks, consulting firms, and major companies weren't hiring below A- average students a few years ago (even from decent schools like Michigan) without some family contact or other extenuating circumstance. Anyway, its still probably pretty rare, and the great part of your situation, which you would be totally obviated by applying to grad school, is that basically no one will ask for your lackluster grades again after your first serious FT position. Its the quality of your work product and employer reference that will matter. I dont really understand why you would give up this relative blank slate for mountains of debt and a very tenuous chance at more lucrative employment opportunities than what you have now. Just my 2 cents.

I would stay in your current job until you have an LSAT score that would achieve a T-14 school at a desirable price, or a regional school for near free in a market you could see yourself staying in an extended period of time
Don't matriculate with the intent to transfer. If you attend one of those regional schools, be prepared to work for what you are making now (presumably $45-55K) in that region - Atlanta, Minneapolis, ect.

[/quote]

I really appreciate the sincere and thorough response. The majority of my anxiety to leave my job right now stems from dissatisfaction due to unfulfilled potential. I have an extremely high IQ (144), but I truly under performed in college (if I even attended any of it). Facing the real world has forced me to mature and I am desperate to adjust my career trajectory. I have developed work ethic and shed my lazy tendencies and I want another shot.

For my cost-benefit analysis, I must admit, I was not using 45-55k as a starting salary post law school. I know that this is going to sound egotistical and naive, but I am an excellent interviewee (hence, my current job) and very well spoken. With satisfactory grades in law school, I was using a starting salary of 100K for my calculations. I do understand that there are extremely unfavorable market conditions currently, but I am confident in my ability to perform during law school.

I guess it comes down to this: I know I have the potential to be far above where I am at right now and it is killing me to not take a risk and go after my dreams.
I am leaning towards staying in my position for another year and retaking to get in the 170's
kappycaft1 wrote:
Criteslaw wrote:I have the intellectual capacity and testing capability, so I am in an extremely frustrating position.

Your current intellectual capacity and testing capability = 165 / 3.27. Everyone else is working with the same stress and anxiety that is brought on by the LSAT, so until you figure out how to get that under control, your actual abilities are exactly what your current scores indicate.

Unfortunately, the chances of getting any sort of worthwhile scholarship at a decent school are greatly diminished for someone with your GPA. You'll need to break into the 170s to hope for some decent money at a lower T14. As jbagelboy mentioned, if you have a stable job (which you do), I have no idea why you'd give it up to go to a sub-par school where the chances of actually becoming a lawyer are in the 60~70% range. :|


Very valid point there. I think that my key is to seeing a sleep consultant. Most people I know are able to get sleep before the LSAT. I think that if I can get a 165 on 0 hours of sleep, I can easily improve on that score. My scores with sleep are consistently in the 170s (granted those aren't during an official test- stress etc obviously play a role)

Like I stated earlier, it is extremely depressing for me to play it safe for 55k a year and watch other less talented individuals pursue my dreams and succeed.

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Ramius
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Ramius » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:05 pm

Like I stated earlier, it is extremely depressing for me to play it safe for 55k a year and watch other less talented individuals pursue my dreams and succeed.


Okay, confidence in your abilities is one thing. This is downright douchey. If you really have matured, then you'd be mature enough to realize that those people out there succeeding at your dream are likely just as talented and possibly even more so. Lay off the self-gratifying aggrandizement, focus on getting your stress stuff figured out, get an LSAT that will accomplish your dream and go from there. Your arrogance here I'm willing to bet shines through elsewhere in your life, and eventually it'll catch up to you. God knows a lot of hiring partners are going to be turned off by your ego.

Keep this in check, work hard and you definitely can accomplish your dream.

rad lulz
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby rad lulz » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:16 pm

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Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:21 pm

matthewsean85 wrote:
Like I stated earlier, it is extremely depressing for me to play it safe for 55k a year and watch other less talented individuals pursue my dreams and succeed.


Okay, confidence in your abilities is one thing. This is downright douchey. If you really have matured, then you'd be mature enough to realize that those people out there succeeding at your dream are likely just as talented and possibly even more so. Lay off the self-gratifying aggrandizement, focus on getting your stress stuff figured out, get an LSAT that will accomplish your dream and go from there. Your arrogance here I'm willing to bet shines through elsewhere in your life, and eventually it'll catch up to you. God knows a lot of hiring partners are going to be turned off by your ego.

Keep this in check, work hard and you definitely can accomplish your dream.


Appreciate the blunt insight. Probably the most honest assessment I have heard in a long time. I admit that is a really arrogant thing to say. I was referencing my work ethic more with the maturity thing. Not going to pretend that I don't have more work to do personally.

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jbagelboy
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:37 pm

To clarify a few points:

- as an econ major you can figure out, with a bimodal salary distribution you'd have to use P1*S1+ P2*S2 + P(unemployed/underemployed)*S3 for expected value of yearly income and for the schools you are looking at with your numbers optimistically, thats about .3(160000) + .5(45000) + .2(~0) per year, versus your current (as stated) 55000. Not so pretty when you consider debt and 3 yrs foregone income.

- the correlation between IQ and law school exam performance is not strong enough to make any valid inferences about your performance in the class. More importantly, being a good interviewer IS important, but only really once you've made the firms' grade cutoff.

- why focus your perceived brilliance on law? To me at least its quite interesting and significant, thats why Im in law school, but its not the most intellectually or aesthetically inspired field. Have no misconceptions about this.

- I think by strongly considering retaking (in February or June if necessary), you are making the right choice. As kappycaft1 pointed out, your current ability on paper is 165/3.27. Prove to adcoms and yourself that 170 (or with your level of confidence, 180) is the more accurate reflection of true potential. This being said, statistically speaking, people who score within the same interval on repeat occasions rarely break out of that score band. Be that exception!

- You have nothing to lose staying in your current capacity longer, gaining more WE, a stronger reference, saving money. You may think you are "falling behind" but thats an erroneous view considering you already have a job that the vast majority of young Americans would kill to get an interview for.

nebula666
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby nebula666 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:58 pm

Just go to a TT or TTT and transfer to T14 after 1L. Those plebeians can't compete with your untapped intellectual capacity. The A 3.27 from a public ivy in a rigorous major like "using a calculator" is equal to at least a 3.8 from whatever shitstitution those poor souls at Special Snowflake School of Law (to which it will subsequently be renamed after you graduate) attended. 1L exams are much less stressful than taking the LSAT so not sleeping beforehand won't be an issue for you. Hell, you might as well pull an all-nighter before the exam just to give those simpleton curveraisers a chance.

After all, going to law school (not being a lawyer) is your dream!

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stillwater
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby stillwater » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:03 pm

nebula666 wrote:Just go to a TT or TTT and transfer to T14 after 1L. Those plebeians can't compete with your untapped intellectual capacity. The A 3.27 from a public ivy in a rigorous major like "using a calculator" is equal to at least a 3.8 from whatever shitstitution those poor souls at Special Snowflake School of Law (to which it will subsequently be renamed after you graduate) attended. 1L exams are much less stressful than taking the LSAT so not sleeping beforehand won't be an issue for you. Hell, you might as well pull an all-nighter before the exam just to give those simpleton curveraisers a chance.

After all, going to law school (not being a lawyer) is your dream!


lulz

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:04 pm

jbagelboy wrote:To clarify a few points:

- as an econ major you can figure out, with a bimodal salary distribution you'd have to use P1*S1+ P2*S2 + P(unemployed/underemployed)*S3 for expected value of yearly income and for the schools you are looking at with your numbers optimistically, thats about .3(160000) + .5(45000) + .2(~0) per year, versus your current (as stated) 55000. Not so pretty when you consider debt and 3 yrs foregone income.

- the correlation between IQ and law school exam performance is not strong enough to make any valid inferences about your performance in the class. More importantly, being a good interviewer IS important, but only really once you've made the firms' grade cutoff.

- why focus your perceived brilliance on law? To me at least its quite interesting and significant, thats why Im in law school, but its not the most intellectually or aesthetically inspired field. Have no misconceptions about this.

- I think by strongly considering retaking (in February or June if necessary), you are making the right choice. As kappycaft1 pointed out, your current ability on paper is 165/3.27. Prove to adcoms and yourself that 170 (or with your level of confidence, 180) is the more accurate reflection of true potential. This being said, statistically speaking, people who score within the same interval on repeat occasions rarely break out of that score band. Be that exception!

- You have nothing to lose staying in your current capacity longer, gaining more WE, a stronger reference, saving money. You may think you are "falling behind" but thats an erroneous view considering you already have a job that the vast majority of young Americans would kill to get an interview for.


Jbagelboy, thank you for spending so much time responding. I'd like to pick your brain further if that's alright?

I think I have focused on law because I do find it very interesting. One of my favorite classes so far has been applying economic monopoly models in anti-trust law cases. I have a love for oration and an outgoing personality type that I think would serve me very well as a lawyer. I'd also be lying if I said I wasn't drawn to the big salaries that are possible as well.

I guess I have focused a lot of my career interest on positions that provide a great deal of financial reward. I guess I have the impression that to live the lifestyle I eventually want to live, I will have to further my education, be it MBA or JD.

I bolded your last statement because I think that summarizes a lot of what I am feeling. I see the shiny jobs that a lot of my classmates have gotten, and I am instantly jealous and worried that I am not progressing. People say to do what you love- I'd be lying if I said I dreamed of supply chain analytics. I want a career that let's me interact with people, use my intellect (we've already beaten that horse), and lead.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:05 pm

nebula666 wrote:Just go to a TT or TTT and transfer to T14 after 1L. Those plebeians can't compete with your untapped intellectual capacity. The A 3.27 from a public ivy in a rigorous major like "using a calculator" is equal to at least a 3.8 from whatever shitstitution those poor souls at Special Snowflake School of Law (to which it will subsequently be renamed after you graduate) attended. 1L exams are much less stressful than taking the LSAT so not sleeping beforehand won't be an issue for you. Hell, you might as well pull an all-nighter before the exam just to give those simpleton curveraisers a chance.

After all, going to law school (not being a lawyer) is your dream!


OK even I lol'd.

20141023
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:13 pm

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rad lulz
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby rad lulz » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:14 pm

Very few lawyers orate. Not much of a lawyers job happens in court (if you represent businesses). You will likely do similar work to what you do now. Research and drafting.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:21 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Criteslaw wrote:The majority of my anxiety to leave my job right now stems from dissatisfaction due to unfulfilled potential. I have an extremely high IQ (144), but I truly under performed in college (if I even attended any of it). Facing the real world has forced me to mature and I am desperate to adjust my career trajectory. I have developed work ethic and shed my lazy tendencies and I want another shot. [...] Like I stated earlier, it is extremely depressing for me to play it safe for 55k a year and watch other less talented individuals pursue my dreams and succeed.

jreeve12 wrote:I never said that I would ultimately be a SCOTUS clerk, but I DO have a good basis to say that I would be in at least the top 2-5% at whatever program I am accepted into. [...] Let's look at it this way. I have an overall IQ of 153 and a verbal reasoning sub-score of 160 (more highly correlated with success in law school than the LSAT).

Just to give you an idea of what you sound like...



Noted. I think there are some severe departures between our two statements, but I have certainly gotten that feedback from this thread...
I am pretty sure I wasn't saying I am guaranteed to be in the top 2-5%...Just that I think that I have potential I am not fulfilling. Yeah, looking back I definitely regret phrasing it the way I did. Haha, you guys have definitely hammered that home.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:24 pm

rad lulz wrote:Very few lawyers orate. Not much of a lawyers job happens in court (if you represent businesses). You will likely do similar work to what you do now. Research and drafting.


I guess I was thinking along the lines of being a business' counsel. I guess I see the orating part as presenting my recommendations and influencing meetings perhaps?

Appreciate the feedback and help, I know you guys aren't getting paid for your time!

chizzy
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby chizzy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:46 pm

Op, did you take the lsat 3 times within the past year? If so, you have to take it into account the fact you cant take it again until after two years. If that's the case, I advice you apply with your numbers and see what happens.

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PepperJack
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby PepperJack » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:49 pm

You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.

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stillwater
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby stillwater » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:51 pm

PepperJack wrote:You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.


hahaha wut

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PepperJack
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby PepperJack » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:55 pm

rad lulz wrote:OP you sounds overconfident and a lil bit of a douche

I disagree. You can't judge him based on 4 years of kollege because he didn't go to klass and can't judge him based off the LSAT because he was nervous. For example, I am a complete stud and would have 20 supermodel girlfriends right now if I had the konfidence to approach them.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:08 pm

chizzy wrote:Op, did you take the lsat 3 times within the past year? If so, you have to take it into account the fact you cant take it again until after two years. If that's the case, I advice you apply with your numbers and see what happens.



Nah, I have a year in between.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:09 pm

PepperJack wrote:You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.



Yeah, that is what I was thinking of doing. Thinking about taking this route with the retake. I tried sleeping pills, I was thinking alcohol as well haha

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stillwater
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby stillwater » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:12 pm

Criteslaw wrote:
PepperJack wrote:You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.



Yeah, that is what I was thinking of doing. Thinking about taking this route with the retake. I tried sleeping pills, I was thinking alcohol as well haha


i mean not sleeping perfectly the night before something big is pretty common. i wouldnt resort to alcohol outside of any regular intake.

Criteslaw
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby Criteslaw » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:13 pm

stillwater wrote:
Criteslaw wrote:
PepperJack wrote:You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.



Yeah, that is what I was thinking of doing. Thinking about taking this route with the retake. I tried sleeping pills, I was thinking alcohol as well haha


i mean not sleeping perfectly the night before something big is pretty common. i wouldnt resort to alcohol outside of any regular intake.


Yeah, I mean this is worse than not sleeping perfectly. This is literally not sleeping at all. I had an afternoon one for one of the dates...

But yeah, sleep anxiety specialist for me.

california2013
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Re: 162/162/165/3.27 Retake? Attempt transfer?

Postby california2013 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:26 pm

Criteslaw wrote:
PepperJack wrote:You might want to consider taking tylenol PM's the night before or drinking a little alcohol/puffing if that is legal in your state of residency.

If you tried sleeping medicine, and it still did not help you should probably see a psychiatrist about anxiety issues preventing you from sleeping. This is different than general insomnia (if it is only before the LSAT), and means you need help coping with anxiety as this would almost certainly also happen before 1L finals.



Yeah, that is what I was thinking of doing. Thinking about taking this route with the retake. I tried sleeping pills, I was thinking alcohol as well haha


can you take the test in June ?

The test in June is in the afternoon.




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