174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

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patfeeney
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174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:36 pm

After waiting for my October score, I thought it was necessary to make a thread to discuss my chances.

I received a 174 on the October LSAT. My undergraduate cumulative GPA is a 3.54. However, I am considering including an addendum regarding my freshman year of college. During my first semester, I was accidentally signed up for the same class twice and was not credited for both sessions (long story). I was also weaning off a medication that made me emotionally uneven, drowsy, and inattentive. My GPA really went skyward with each subsequent semester; my first semester of freshman year was a 2.8, followed by a 3.2, followed by 3.7, and onward. My cume for my sophomore and junior years is roughly a 3.79, as a double major.

So far as softs go, I have interned at an international news agency in New York City and at a congressional district office. I have done journalism work in print, on radio, and on television, and received a minor statewide reward for one of my news stories.

My top four choices are Yale, Harvard, Penn, and Cornell. I'm considering Yale mainly for its Law and Media programs; Harvard because of its unusually large class sizes and because of the Law Review. I understand that my chances at Penn and Cornell are not terrible at the present moment.

The question is, would it make sense to even try at Yale and Harvard, or should I look elsewhere? I want to round out my applications with four reaches, Penn and Cornell included.

Ti Malice
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:39 pm

Law schools don't get to report the GPA with "special considerations" to USNWR, so all they'll see is the 3.54. Have you tried everything possible to have the F removed for the double registration?

Why are you in a rush to apply now? You should keep improving your GPA and apply at some point after graduation. You have no chance at Yale and just a very small chance at Harvard with a 3.54. Also, applying to just a few law schools doesn't make any sense. Using a scholarship offer to negotiate for more merit aid at other schools is a key part of the application process. That means applying to law schools you know you wouldn't care to attend. You should apply to the entire T14 except for Yale and Stanford, unless you want to pay for the app fees just to have no regrets. If you're not crazy about Berkeley, then you can save that app fee, because you're almost certainly looking at a rejection with that GPA -- and even if you got in, you wouldn't get significant money.

Also, with very few exceptions, don't accord much weight to schools' special "programs" and whatnot. Law school provides a generalist education. You're not going to be able to spend an entire year focusing on any specialty.

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hephaestus
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby hephaestus » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:42 pm

+1 to Ti Malice.

The special considerations will be irrelevant. I would stay in school until you can reach a 3.7 and then H will be in your reach. Also I do not understand why H is your top choice because of Law Review?

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:30 pm

Ti Malice wrote:Law schools don't get to report the GPA with "special considerations" to USNWR, so all they'll see is the 3.54. Have you tried everything possible to have the F removed for the double registration?

Why are you in a rush to apply now? You should keep improving your GPA and apply at some point after graduation. You have no chance at Yale and just a very small chance at Harvard with a 3.54. Also, applying to just a few law schools doesn't make any sense. Using a scholarship offer to negotiate for more merit aid at other schools is a key part of the application process. That means applying to law schools you know you wouldn't care to attend. You should apply to the entire T14 except for Yale and Stanford, unless you want to pay for the app fees just to have no regrets. If you're not crazy about Berkeley, then you can save that app fee, because you're almost certainly looking at a rejection with that GPA -- and even if you got in, you wouldn't get significant money.

Also, with very few exceptions, don't accord much weight to schools' special "programs" and whatnot. Law school provides a generalist education. You're not going to be able to spend an entire year focusing on any specialty.


I plan to apply to four other schools; these are the ones I'm worried about because the other four are well within my range.

I'm applying now because, even if I get 4.0 gpas for my last two semesters, my cume would only go up to roughly a 3.6 - nothing too significant for Harvard or Yale.

I also have other reasons for applying to each. These were the big draws that I figured would give some minimal background.

If Yale is really that far out of the question, I'd consider Columbia, NYU, or Chicago. I can only do Northeast, I should have specified that earlier.

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Postby 06162014123 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:47 pm

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:34 pm

RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?

Very, very white and male. The only thing I could say that would diversify me is a nervous condition that qualified me for disability services and extended testing conditions at my undergrad.

One question: how heavily do schools consider double majors?

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby DrStudMuffin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:38 pm

patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?

Very, very white and male. The only thing I could say that would diversify me is a nervous condition that qualified me for disability services and extended testing conditions at my undergrad.

One question: how heavily do schools consider double majors?


They don't care.

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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:38 pm

patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?

Very, very white and male. The only thing I could say that would diversify me is a nervous condition that qualified me for disability services and extended testing conditions at my undergrad.

One question: how heavily do schools consider double majors?


Not at all, but firms will if one of them is electrical or biomedical engineering

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:15 pm

RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?


How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby DrStudMuffin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:26 pm

patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?


How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.


http://www.mylsn.info
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:31 pm

DrStudMuffin wrote:
patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?


How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.


http://www.mylsn.info
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

Yeah, but my softs really would play no factor? I mean, obviously they have to have SOME significance, assuming that the "What are my chances?" Board isn't a futile source.

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jbagelboy
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:18 pm

patfeeney wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:
patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?


How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.


http://www.mylsn.info
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

Yeah, but my softs really would play no factor? I mean, obviously they have to have SOME significance, assuming that the "What are my chances?" Board isn't a futile source.


It's not that softs don't make a difference. It's that these softs are decent, but not extraordinary. They are pretty much on par with other applicants to this set of law schools (NYU, Harvard, Penn, Columbia, ect.). It seems like your softs would actually be more relevant to journalism school, but that's neither here nor there. Stronger assets to your application for schools like Harvard, Columbia, and Yale include MA's from top US programs or Oxbridge, exclusive/prestigious undergrad, fulbright/watson/rhodes fellowships, multiple publications in prestigious journals, founding member of publicly known non-profits or start-ups, multiple patents, ect. Having worked in journalism, and been published as a journalist in multiple media, is cool but not remarkable. My friend who worked at New York Times and FSG, two of the most prestigious publishers in NYC (and had countless bylines), applied to law school and had basically the cycle one might expect (her grades were good so she did well, but not better than anticipated).

Great softs, specifically unique or prestigious softs, can definitely secure schools and make for a great cycle, but they won't open up schools totally out of reach. Likewise, if you've done little interesting with your life besides gone to college and taken the LSAT, your cycle will suffer a little but you'll (largely) still get in to schools where you are above median. In other words, even if your softs were significantly more impressive than they are, you would still be out of consideration at HYS with the 3.5.

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:23 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
patfeeney wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:
patfeeney wrote:
How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.


http://www.mylsn.info
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

Yeah, but my softs really would play no factor? I mean, obviously they have to have SOME significance, assuming that the "What are my chances?" Board isn't a futile source.


It's not that softs don't make a difference. It's that these softs are decent, but not extraordinary. They are pretty much on par with other applicants to this set of law schools (NYU, Harvard, Penn, Columbia, ect.). It seems like your softs would actually be more relevant to journalism school, but that's neither here nor there. Stronger assets to your application for schools like Harvard, Columbia, and Yale include MA's from top US programs or Oxbridge, exclusive/prestigious undergrad, fulbright/watson/rhodes fellowships, multiple publications in prestigious journals, founding member of publicly known non-profits or start-ups, multiple patents, ect. Having worked in journalism, and been published as a journalist in multiple media, is cool but not remarkable. My friend who worked at New York Times and FSG, two of the most prestigious publishers in NYC (and had countless bylines), applied to law school and had basically the cycle one might expect (her grades were good so she did well, but not better than anticipated).

Great softs, specifically unique or prestigious softs, can definitely secure schools and make for a great cycle, but they won't open up schools totally out of reach. Likewise, if you've done little interesting with your life besides gone to college and taken the LSAT, your cycle will suffer a little but you'll (largely) still get in to schools where you are above median. In other words, even if your softs were significantly more impressive than they are, you would still be out of consideration at HYS with the 3.5.


That's an explanation I can understand. What do you suggest my approach be if I cannot wait until the next cycle?

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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:32 pm

patfeeney wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
patfeeney wrote:Yeah, but my softs really would play no factor? I mean, obviously they have to have SOME significance, assuming that the "What are my chances?" Board isn't a futile source.


It's not that softs don't make a difference. It's that these softs are decent, but not extraordinary. They are pretty much on par with other applicants to this set of law schools (NYU, Harvard, Penn, Columbia, ect.). It seems like your softs would actually be more relevant to journalism school, but that's neither here nor there. Stronger assets to your application for schools like Harvard, Columbia, and Yale include MA's from top US programs or Oxbridge, exclusive/prestigious undergrad, fulbright/watson/rhodes fellowships, multiple publications in prestigious journals, founding member of publicly known non-profits or start-ups, multiple patents, ect. Having worked in journalism, and been published as a journalist in multiple media, is cool but not remarkable. My friend who worked at New York Times and FSG, two of the most prestigious publishers in NYC (and had countless bylines), applied to law school and had basically the cycle one might expect (her grades were good so she did well, but not better than anticipated).

Great softs, specifically unique or prestigious softs, can definitely secure schools and make for a great cycle, but they won't open up schools totally out of reach. Likewise, if you've done little interesting with your life besides gone to college and taken the LSAT, your cycle will suffer a little but you'll (largely) still get in to schools where you are above median. In other words, even if your softs were significantly more impressive than they are, you would still be out of consideration at HYS with the 3.5.


That's an explanation I can understand. What do you suggest my approach be if I cannot wait until the next cycle?


Well, I'm not sure I fully grasp the problem. You have a great LSAT score, your grades are OK, and your softs are decent and can be improved with some full time work experience post-grad. So you should get into almost every school. If you really want a shot at Harvard and a near guarantee of CCN, you should finish your senior year (Assuming you are a senior?), work in journalism or a related industry when you graduate, and apply in the fall. As another poster mentioned, with a 3.6, you're getting $ at CCN and upwards of $100-120K at lower T14s.

If you insist on applying now, you'll still have a good cycle, just not quite as good. If you write good "Why X" statement for Penn, you'll be in and you can negotiate using UVA or another peer for scholarships. If you are unwilling to wait, might as well apply ASAP, negotiate the shit out of scholly's, and head to a T7 w/ $.

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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby BigZuck » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:46 pm

Your excuses, double major, and softs won't make any difference. It's all about the numbers for you. Definitely bump that gpa up to a 3.6 to try and give yourself some sort of shot at Harvard.

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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby rad lulz » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:00 pm

patfeeney wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:
patfeeney wrote:
RedShift wrote:Columbia and NYU would be more likely than Harvard or Yale to accept a 3.54/174. You don't happen to be a URM do you?


How much more likely? The only thing really keeping me from considering NYU or Columbia is that Manhattan cost of living. I'd also consider apps at Chicago or Ann Arbor.


http://www.mylsn.info
http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

Yeah, but my softs really would play no factor? I mean, obviously they have to have SOME significance, assuming that the "What are my chances?" Board isn't a futile source.

It's pretty much a worthless board yes

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby DrStudMuffin » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:10 pm

Sorry I didn't elaborate earlier. The main point of my post was that your softs are average, and no schools will care all that much. Thus your cycle will be, like most, very numbers driven.

And rad is largely correct.

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thewaves
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby thewaves » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:11 pm

Did you take the LSAT with an extended time limit? I've only heard a few references to this, but I think some schools look down upon this. Just want to flag this in case it applies here as it could affect the outcome of schools you're shooting for acceptance.

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:15 pm

[quote="thewaves"]Did you take the LSAT with an extended time limit? I've only heard a few references to this, but I think some schools look down upon this. Just want to flag this in case it applies here as it could affect the outcome of schools you're shooting for acceptance.[/quote
No, I took the normal time limit. I haven't tried any special accomodations sonce freshman year.

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'll see if I can finangle another year into my plan.

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Cicero76
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby Cicero76 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:45 pm

This double registered class thing makes no sense to me. They really won't retroactively withdraw you from that? That'd fix your GPA right up.

Ti Malice
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:52 pm

Cicero76 wrote:This double registered class thing makes no sense to me. They really won't retroactively withdraw you from that? That'd fix your GPA right up.


Seriously. I would petition and appeal that up as high as you can go.

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:08 am

Cicero76 wrote:This double registered class thing makes no sense to me. They really won't retroactively withdraw you from that? That'd fix your GPA right up.


In short, before my freshman year during orientation class registration I wasn't able to pick all of my classes so my advisor told me I could choose classes on my own time. I did so ad accidentally signed up for the same class twice... Which I was confused about because one was labelled Wrtg 101 and the other Icsm 101. (Seminar course) i even went to the registrat and the attendants there said my schedule was fine. At the end of the semester, I found the erro and petitioned to be refunded for the credits. Instead, I was blamed for signing up for the classes in the first place, because apparently I shouldn't have done that. Because of that, I lost four credits and substantially lowered my GPA because I took an extra heavy courseload.

I've tried everything I could and the school still insists it's on me.

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patfeeney
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby patfeeney » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:11 am

Cicero76 wrote:This double registered class thing makes no sense to me. They really won't retroactively withdraw you from that? That'd fix your GPA right up.


Really, the problem was that I took two similar high-demand courses in a 16- credit schedule when I should have only taken one in a 12-credit schedule. To this day I'll say the course loads for those classes were heavier than some 400 levels I've taken. Of course, it doesn't mean I can do much in terms of changing my GPA.

TigerDude
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Re: 174/3.54, 3.79 with special considerations

Postby TigerDude » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:15 pm

I doubt law schools will cut you slack that you did poorly while taking 4 classes in a semester, even if for whatever reason 1 of them ended up not counting. If I understand this right, I think you are stuck with it.

The drugs thing might help if you are on the edge of admissions & you have documentation to back up your claim.




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