Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

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cotiger
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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:16 pm

BigZuck wrote:Never applied to SMU so not really familiar with their scholarship policy. But Texas schools are kind of wonky with their scholarship offers (one instate splitter on this site was offered as much at UH as at Northwestern and UT). But if SMU is decently cheaper AND the OP doesn't really care about big law I think SMU could be a decent option.


Agreed that SMU could be a decent option if decently cheaper than UT. It's just that even if SMU gives a super generous full-tuition scholly, as long as UT gives what it's been giving, UT would still most likely be the better option. Definitely worth sending an app into, I'm just doubtful that she'll actually end up there.

BigZuck wrote:I think lower T14 is always credited over UT if big law is the be all, end all goal (and you're not concerned about cost).


Agreed.

BigZuck wrote:Maybe you can parse it out and say median at Duke is better than median at NU if you want TX big law (I honestly don't know if that's true or not) but when I was deciding schools I was given the impression that TX big law was relatively easy to get out of the T14, much more so than out of UT. "Like shooting fish in a barrel" and anecdotes about 1L SA offers before 1st semester grades came were common things I heard when speaking to kids at lower T14s. None of that is really true of UT, for the most part you're going to need good grades.


I have no actual knowledge about that either. However, the focus so many people put on ties (your Dallas comment, for example), makes "like shooting fish in a barrel" suspect. Maybe it's like shooting fish in a barrel for T14 students with legit ties, but OP doesn't really have legit ties to the state except for (presumably) one year of living in Dallas.

BigZuck wrote:It's when you start considering things like cost and personal preference and maybe wanting non-big law jobs that UT starts to be a consideration over the lower T14. Again, just my opinion.

Also, I'm still kind of operating under the assumption that her number will leave her with a "need to get big law" level of debt. True, NU might technically be more than UT but I would probably prefer to roll with 180K debt at NU than 120K at UT. NU is going to give you a much better shot at paying it off in one way or another.

Finally, I could be wrong but has the OP said she wants big law? If she just wants any lawyer job in Texas then zeroing in on UT and SMU (ideally after living and working in state before applying and if its at a reasonable, "don't need big law" cost) makes a ton of sense to me.


OP mentioned that she might be interested in working in government. She seems really drawn to living in Texas in particular. Hasn't said anything about biglaw, which is why I'm even more hesitant about the advisability of T14.

I looked at LSN and got estimates of approximately 95k debt at UT (assuming residency+60k) and 225k debt at NU (assuming 45k).

Edit: Scooped. High preference for low debt, and many different levels of outcomes are acceptable? Sounds like UT over T14 to me.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby bound » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:40 pm

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby BigZuck » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:57 pm

I should clarify something: when I said T14>UT for big law, I meant TX big law. For big law in general that goes without saying (a T14 is going to get you to big firms in NY A LOT easier than UT will) but I also get the sense that a T14 will generally get you TX big law a lot easier than UT will. As I said, the impression I got when talking to T14 kids was the TX big law was probably easier for Texans to get than it was for the average person to get NY big law. They really made it seem like TX firms love Texans with T14 credentionals, sometimes almost regardless of grades.

Now, the OP is not a Texan and never will be. But I'm not either, I had only been living and working in the state for about a year and a half when I applied (and I want Houston, so maybe that makes a difference). But those T14 kids still almost seemed envious of my ties and desire to work in Texas and made it seem like it would be relatively easy to get TX big law. I should also mention that my SO is a Texan. So that's why I saw a lot of similarities with the OP- not a Texan, desire to work in Texas, SO a Texan, and (potentially) ties to the state by living and working there before law school.

As for UT schollys versus SMU schollys- yeah, I don't know. Honestly I can't even interpret what people report on LSN. Some people don't put any scholarship amounts. Some put for one year. Some put for all three years. And this is where it gets especially tricky for UT- some include a resident tuition discount. Some (presumably Texans) don't include their resident discount, just the scholarship amount. And then some include a 3K grant that most Texans got. For most schools it's usually obivous to figure out if people are putting for one or all three years (20K is for one year b/c not divisible by three, 60K is for all three years because it exceeds cost of tuition, etc.) But on the UT LSN it's all kind of a cluster.

Again, I would be surprised if an out of stater with the OPs numbers got 60K and instate tuition discount. She's above one 75th and below one 25th (a classic splitter). As a point of comparison, I was somewhere between median and 75th GPA and above the 75th LSAT and I got the same scholarship you're projecting for the OP. My GPA and LSAT were a big boost for them and more importantly I was instate, so I also helped full that quota. The OP would not help fill the instate quota and would help one median and hurt the other (not saying that to brag about myself or be a dick to the OP, just trying to say how I think this all works from the adcoms perspective). I just don't see an out of state splitter getting that large of a scholarship. However, I could be totally off base. I know two in state splitters who were very close to the OPs numbers who got the same scholarship as me. But again, they were instate so hypothetically more valuable because the not only helped bring up the LSAT but also fulfill the instate quota. Also, I should mention that the three of us all negotiated pretty heavily and probably would have ended up with 45K total instead of 60K total had we not.

Anyway, maybe out of state splitters got the same deal but I suspect not. Without being able to divine what LSN is telling me I can't really confirm that suspicion however.

If I were the OP I would apply to every school ranked 4-18 (minus Berkeley) and throw in SMU along with WUSTL and Minnesota for negotiation purposes and see what happens.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:30 pm

Austinbound, I didn't realize (or just forgot) that you really wanted to apply right this second. If so, then everything that BigZuck just said about out-of-state applicants is right on the money. When I was guessing resident+60k, that meant that you had waited another year to gain residency and then applied. You're not going to get residency+60k as a scholarship.

BigZuck, agreed that scholarship reporting for UT is screwy, but seeing the people on LSN with roughly OP's stats and who list Texas as their state (2 whole people!), they got 75k and 60k. I think you're saying that you and two other in-state splitters got 60k as well, which would support the 60k estimate. I was going on the (apparently incorrect) assumption that she took the cycle off and gained residency.

As for SMU, looking at LSN of the people (again, 3 whole people!) with roughly OPs numbers, they got scholarships of 69, 69, and 66.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:46 pm

I'd really recommend taking the cycle off to gain residency. Out of state, you're looking at 150k+ of debt. At that point you probably would want to look at the T14 options because you are definitely going to need biglaw to pay that off.

If you absolutely must apply this cycle, retake for a shot at Columbia. You're not going to get much money from even the lower T14, so you want to maximize the quality of the school. As it is, you have a chance at NYU on down (minus Berkeley). This will result in debt of 225k+.

WUSTL may put out for your LSAT. You have a good chance at a 120k scholarship. However, keep in mind that this will still leave you with 105k debt. You would be taking on more debt with a drastically worse chance of living in Dallas after graduation than you would after gaining residency for UT.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby BigZuck » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:55 pm

cotiger wrote:Austinbound, I didn't realize (or just forgot) that you really wanted to apply right this second. If so, then everything that BigZuck just said about out-of-state applicants is right on the money. When I was guessing resident+60k, that meant that you had waited another year to gain residency and then applied. You're not going to get residency+60k as a scholarship.

BigZuck, agreed that scholarship reporting for UT is screwy, but seeing the people on LSN with roughly OP's stats and who list Texas as their state (2 whole people!), they got 75k and 60k. I think you're saying that you and two other in-state splitters got 60k as well, which would support the 60k estimate. I was going on the (apparently incorrect) assumption that she took the cycle off and gained residency.

As for SMU, looking at LSN of the people (again, 3 whole people!) with roughly OPs numbers, they got scholarships of 69, 69, and 66.


I put down 102K for myself. Can't remember if that was instate+15K or instate+18k. But I was trying to standardize it because it looked to me like in general people were trying to put instate+X scholarship amount.

Anyway, it's all kinds of screwy. I assume the 150K and 143K folks are full rides (obviously, right?). But there is someone who I know was a TX resident and received a full ride and they put down 111K. And then another TX resident who got a full ride put down 96K! So who the heck knows how to interpret that mess?

Total speculation on my part: I'm guessing an out of state splitter with the OPs numbers would get something like instate tuition discount plus 8-10K. Not a horrible option, but still over 100K debt. Instate splitter with the same numbers would probably get instate discount, plus 12-15K, plus 3k that all Texas residents get. And if this cycle is any indication they could bump that 12-15K number up to 20K if they negotiated savvily (is that a word?)

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby BigZuck » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:01 pm

cotiger wrote:I'd really recommend taking the cycle off to gain residency. Out of state, you're looking at 150k+ of debt. At that point you probably would want to look at the T14 options because you are definitely going to need biglaw to pay that off.

If you absolutely must apply this cycle, retake for a shot at Columbia. You're not going to get much money from even the lower T14, so you want to maximize the quality of the school. As it is, you have a chance at NYU on down (minus Berkeley). This will result in debt of 225k+.

WUSTL may put out for your LSAT. You have a good chance at a 120k scholarship. However, keep in mind that this will still leave you with 105k debt. You would be taking on more debt with a drastically worse chance of living in Dallas after graduation than you would after gaining residency for UT.


If WUSTL keeps WUSTLin' then she will get a fully. It's a non-starter as far actually attending but certainly worth it as a negotiation chip. WUSTL's late cycle full ride offer bumped people up a couple K per year at a few schools this cycle (including at UT).

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:14 pm

BigZuck wrote:
If WUSTL keeps WUSTLin' then she will get a fully. It's a non-starter as far actually attending but certainly worth it as a negotiation chip. WUSTL's late cycle full ride offer bumped people up a couple K per year at a few schools this cycle (including at UT).


Great, so her debt goes down to 210k+ at NU or (assuming your guess of resident discount+30k) 130k+ at UT. :roll:. Considering OP was squeamish at 95k debt, this doesn't sound like something she's going to be too excited about.

Especially with the job already lined up in Dallas, what's the rush in applying this cycle? It's just throwing away money and/or opportunities.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby BigZuck » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:33 pm

cotiger wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
If WUSTL keeps WUSTLin' then she will get a fully. It's a non-starter as far actually attending but certainly worth it as a negotiation chip. WUSTL's late cycle full ride offer bumped people up a couple K per year at a few schools this cycle (including at UT).


Great, so her debt goes down to 210k+ at NU or (assuming your guess of resident discount+30k) 130k+ at UT. :roll:. Considering OP was squeamish at 95k debt, this doesn't sound like something she's going to be too excited about.

Especially with the job already lined up in Dallas, what's the rush in applying this cycle? It's just throwing away money and/or opportunities.


I was also hoping she would delay a year to get residency. And saving 6K is better than not saving 6K.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby bound » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:53 pm

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:57 pm

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby bound » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:06 pm

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby cotiger » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Austinbound wrote:oops, sorry. When I said "prestige" I meant the OCI/employment recruiting that would come out of going to a school like that.


No I am definitely in the process of being convinced. I'm in my year off right now working as a paralegal and I'm just dying to be back in school - so I'm trying to come to terms with the option of sitting out another year. I'm very much a "planner" so I have to kind of figure out all of the details before making a decision like that. If I knew that I 100% was getting into UT, then I would for sure sit out another year to establish residency. But I can't really be certain that I'm getting in which makes me nervous.


I'd say UT is pretty much in the bag, especially if you become a resident. The 2/8 that didn't get in with roughly your numbers both had lower LSATs and weren't residents.

I know the pull of going back to school can be strong, but just keep thinking of all the debt you'll reduce! Just get everything in order right now (LORs, PS, low-stress retake if you want) and then you'll be completely ready to submit on Sept 1 next year.
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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby jstep » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:05 am

Hey guys,

I have a close set of stats to the OP, but I am an URM (Chicano/Mexican).

Stats are 3.22/168.

I'll be retaking in December (my PTs were all floating around 172-176).

I was planning on EDing UVA regardless of the retake because it's my number one choice for a number of reasons. Do you think I fair a fighting chance with ED at UVA given URM status?

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:23 am

jstep wrote:Hey guys,

I have a close set of stats to the OP, but I am an URM (Chicano/Mexican).

Stats are 3.22/168.

I'll be retaking in December (my PTs were all floating around 172-176).

I was planning on EDing UVA regardless of the retake because it's my number one choice for a number of reasons. Do you think I fair a fighting chance with ED at UVA given URM status?


there is very little data here, but what we do have would suggest you won't get UVA with 168/3.2 - probably WL. The URM boost for Mexican is unpredictable and generally not substantial without real diversity cred

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby bound » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:23 pm

jstep wrote:Hey guys,

I have a close set of stats to the OP, but I am an URM (Chicano/Mexican).

Stats are 3.22/168.

I'll be retaking in December (my PTs were all floating around 172-176).

I was planning on EDing UVA regardless of the retake because it's my number one choice for a number of reasons. Do you think I fair a fighting chance with ED at UVA given URM status?



I was reading an article posted elsewhere that ED UVA is probably your best shot. Also, Georgetown accepts waaaaaay more splitters ED.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby tofuspeedstar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:12 pm

If you apply ED to UT as a non-resident and accepted -> pay in-state tuition. If you're instate resident, apply ED and accepted -> $10k annual living stipend+instate tuition

http://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/faqs.php

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby bound » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:58 pm

tofuspeedstar wrote:If you apply ED to UT as a non-resident and accepted -> pay in-state tuition. If you're instate resident, apply ED and accepted -> $10k annual living stipend+instate tuition

http://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/faqs.php



ED IT IS

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby BigZuck » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:45 pm

Austinbound wrote:
tofuspeedstar wrote:If you apply ED to UT as a non-resident and accepted -> pay in-state tuition. If you're instate resident, apply ED and accepted -> $10k annual living stipend+instate tuition

http://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/faqs.php



ED IT IS


Just keep in mind that if you pay the 33Kish tuition and 20Kish cost of living and other stuff through loans then you're looking at about 197K debt at graduation.

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Re: Chances at Vandy or UT? 3.33/170

Postby toshiroh » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:13 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Austinbound wrote:
tofuspeedstar wrote:If you apply ED to UT as a non-resident and accepted -> pay in-state tuition. If you're instate resident, apply ED and accepted -> $10k annual living stipend+instate tuition

http://www.utexas.edu/law/admissions/jd/faqs.php



ED IT IS


Just keep in mind that if you pay the 33Kish tuition and 20Kish cost of living and other stuff through loans then you're looking at about 197K debt at graduation.

+1




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