Top Law Schools

Hey...I started posting on here back in January and got some pretty encouraging responses given my softs, the prestige of my school, and other stated characteristics. I am a URM, AA male. Unfortunately, since then there have been some unfortunate developments and now I am left wondering how my law school admission journey is ever going to play out the way that I envision it.

You write as though the T-6 schools are somehow less forgiving of C & F issues than are lower ranked schools. If you believe that you are in for a rude awakening. They all care, and no ABA school wants to admit an emotionally or mentally unstable student - remember Virginia Tech? Adcoms take this stuff very seriously, and do should you. Why admit you when they can find another YOU without the issues?

I see immaturity and an anger management problem! Even in your post you seem to avoid accepting responsibility for your behavior. You were "reported" or "found responsible". A refusal to admit wrongful behavior raises a red flag at Florida Coastal as much as at Harvard regardless of your numbers. A year suspension means there was some serious dirt on you.

For you, I suggest counseling. At this point, you'd need to revise a "law school or bust" mantra - if you had one. You're going to have problems getting into a top-100 without seriously addressing your issues.

You must disclose all of the incidents, and because there are multiple incidents you are going to have a difficult time convincing adcoms that you have matured enough in two short years to handle the rigors of law school without threatening some poor co-ed who doesn't share her notes or professor who cold-calls you when you aren't prepared.

You should continue to keep your grades up, work the LSAT like a job, get some intense counseling, and wait at least two years after graduating to apply. The post-graduate work experience will help in several ways:

1) it will provide an opportunity to show your maturity;

2) it will help you focus and decide whether you really want to go to law school;

3) it can help you save some coin and/or help pay off any debts;

4) it can give you a shot at demonstrating some recent leadership via a promotion;

5) it may avail another LOR (via an employer);

6) it will show that you are self-aware and willing to acknowledge and confront your shortcomings;

7) it will put a bigger time gap between your incidents and your law school application dates.

Even without the first six benefits the last one (#7) is extremely important.

I say wait, work, save money, make nice with all of the people you have offended, and get counseling. Don't get a letter from the prof you e-mailed, because he/she can burn you, but make up with him/her so you can briefly discuss the resolution in your addendum (i.e. Tell the adcoms that you apologized, etc.).

I think PDaddy provides solid a advice here.

I just wanted to chime in that you should be prepared for possible disappointment regarding a WH internship. I have worked as both a contractor and a gov employee for multiple agencies. In this role I have observed many interns/contractors/employees be offered positions only to have them pulled during the background investigation after the initial offer. While the problems that you report are likely not long term disqualifying, many agencies will not let someone in with such items in their recent past.

PDaddy wrote:
I see immaturity and an anger management problem! Even in your post you seem to avoid accepting responsibility for your behavior. You were "reported" or "found responsible". A refusal to admit wrongful behavior raises a red flag at Florida Coastal as much as at Harvard regardless of your numbers. A year suspension means there was some serious dirt on you.

Firstly, thanks for your response. It is necessary that I approach all of this in a candid manner. I wasn't trying to sidestep, I was just saying what technically happened according to our honor code's terminology---I fully realize that it is up to me to take a long, hard look at myself and that's what I am doing. I did make the assumption that my history would be more deleterious to my chances at T6 schools, but only because those schools are more competitive overall.

PDaddy wrote:
For you, I suggest counseling. At this point, you'd need to revise a "law school or bust" mantra - if you had one. You're going to have problems getting into a top-100 without seriously addressing your issues.

Counseling is a given---in fact it's required for me to return to my school. I'm just asking, for the purpose of law school admissions, what would be at least partly satisfying in their eyes? Are we talking six months of counseling? Are we talking three whole years? All the way until I start to apply? Are we talking enough to where I get a glowing letter from my counselor? And if I do manage to seriously address my issues---obviously it's not quantifiable---but do I still have some reasonable chance of making it into law school? And---is it really a completely flawed idea that Florida Coastal law would be more willing to take a shot on me (assuming I follow all your suggestions) than Yale? Thanks again.

You need some perspective. A year off from college should do that. How are you using your time in between? That is extremely important. You have so much time between now and applying. You shouldn't hold this idea that it's "t6 or bust" because at this point, it doesn't seem likely. I would work on yourself first, think about law school later. Go work a real job, grow up, and then re-evaluate your options. Those kinds of softs you're listing won't mitigate your circumstances, so if you're really gung-ho on law school, work on the LSAT and demonstrate that you've learned from your mistakes. Join the school disciplinary board, if they let you. Work with young students who have emotional issues. These things aren't resume filler--they're forcing you to think about someone besides yourself.

What's a Top LAC?

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

I assumed Amherst, Swarthmore, or Williams.

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

I didn't assume that offering background was tantamount to "fellating" myself, but if so I guess it feels pretty damn good then.

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

Yeah it sounded like some "junior Ivy" nonsense.

Take some time off school. Two or three years down the line, come back and reapply where you're able to reasonably say on an application, "experience X matured me greatly, and I am an entirely different person than I was in college."

You have great numbers, and a top 6 school is definitely in the cards by nature of numbers alone, so don't waste it on a cycle where you might way-underperform.

twentypercentmore wrote:Take some time off school. Two or three years down the line, come back and reapply where you're able to reasonably say on an application, "experience X matured me greatly, and I am an entirely different person than I was in college."

You have great numbers, and a top 6 school is definitely in the cards by nature of numbers alone, so don't waste it on a cycle where you might way-underperform.

Yep. Don't even think about being a K-JD.

Void wrote:

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

Yeah it sounded like some "junior Ivy" nonsense.

You need to relax, man.

twentypercentmore wrote:Take some time off school. Two or three years down the line, come back and reapply where you're able to reasonably say on an application, "experience X matured me greatly, and I am an entirely different person than I was in college."

You have great numbers, and a top 6 school is definitely in the cards by nature of numbers alone, so don't waste it on a cycle where you might way-underperform.

Thanks for your input.

Although I'm working a part-time job, I'm attempting to get involved in a gubernatorial campaign to effectively use my time off. I'm also going to commence counseling soon, as is required by my school. Getting involved with kids with disciplinary issues---I'm a bit iffy about. I guess the younger ones wouldn't be so bad, but I'd be reluctant to deal with those closer to me in age.

But I've also been thinking that I can use this time to prep for the LSAT. Considering I wait a few years after I finish undergrad, law school is about 4-5 years out. Will it hurt me to take the LSAT so early (next summer or fall)?

yoruba1 wrote:

Void wrote:

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

Yeah it sounded like some "junior Ivy" nonsense.

You need to relax, man.

Yeah, seeing as how you're the dude with the obvious rage control issues, I think I'll take your advice. I was just curious about the new and creative ways you Williams College types are labeling your preftigious BAs in Poetry these days.

yoruba1 wrote:

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

I didn't assume that offering background was tantamount to "fellating" myself, but if so I guess it feels pretty damn good then.

The part that I was referring to was the "T3" business. You could've just said "a top LAC". T3 implies you think there's a meaningful distinction between (... checking current USNews rankings...) Williams, Amherst, or Swarthmore and a place like Carleton or Wesleyan (*gasp* #17, so pitifully common!), and you want people to know that your school is, like, super elite.

T14 is a meaningful distinction for law school employment. So is YHS. The same goes for the Ivy League and HYPS in terms of lay prestige. The distinction between the #3 LAC and #15 LAC, on the other hand, is only meaningful for USN-conscious high school seniors.

Void wrote:Yeah, seeing as how you're the dude with the obvious rage control issues, I think I'll take your advice. I was just curious about the new and creative ways you Williams College types are labeling your preftigious BAs in Poetry these days.

cotiger wrote:

yoruba1 wrote:

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

I didn't assume that offering background was tantamount to "fellating" myself, but if so I guess it feels pretty damn good then.

The part that I was referring to was the "T3" business. You could've just said "a top LAC". T3 implies you think there's a meaningful distinction between (... checking current USNews rankings...) Williams, Amherst, or Swarthmore and a place like Carleton or Wesleyan (*gasp* #17, so pitifully common!), and you want people to know that your school is, like, super elite.

T14 is a meaningful distinction for law school employment. So is YHS. The same goes for the Ivy League and HYPS in terms of lay prestige. The distinction between the #3 LAC and #15 LAC, on the other hand, is only meaningful for USN-conscious high school seniors.

.

cotiger wrote:

yoruba1 wrote:

cotiger wrote:

Void wrote:What's a Top LAC?

Liberal arts college. "Top 3" though, c'mon.. Not as bad as "public ivy" guy, but people really need to stop fellating themselves over the "prestigousness" of their UG.

I didn't assume that offering background was tantamount to "fellating" myself, but if so I guess it feels pretty damn good then.

The part that I was referring to was the "T3" business. You could've just said "a top LAC". T3 implies you think there's a meaningful distinction between (... checking current USNews rankings...) Williams, Amherst, or Swarthmore and a place like Carleton or Wesleyan (*gasp* #17, so pitifully common!), and you want people to know that your school is, like, super elite.

T14 is a meaningful distinction for law school employment. So is YHS. The same goes for the Ivy League and HYPS in terms of lay prestige. The distinction between the #3 LAC and #15 LAC, on the other hand, is only meaningful for USN-conscious high school seniors.

*sigh*...Well, gee. I sincerely wasn't aiming for the whole my-school's-better-than-yours thing, but since you took it there...sorry you didn't get in. .

Void wrote:
Yeah, seeing as how you're the dude with the obvious rage control issues, I think I'll take your advice. I was just curious about the new and creative ways you Williams College types are labeling your preftigious BAs in Poetry these days.

Oh, now. Come here, buddy...it sounds like you need a big ol' hug. There, there now.

DrStudMuffin wrote:
Or he was just trying to let us know that he goes to Williams/Amherst.

I agree with you that there isn't a meaningful distinction between Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore and Bowdoin/Middlebury/Pomona, but you're simply wrong if you think Williams/Amherst students don't have better access to i-banking/MBB consulting positions and national fellowships/less numbers focused grad schools than Grinnell/Colgate students.

Edit: Either way it is irrelevant for law school admissions, though.

It's cool. Admitted longstanding rage issues over here...apparent unresolved insecurity issues likely stemming from childhood over there. I know, I know...mommy and daddy held you to such lofty standards. Christ...I'm embarrassed for even going there.

@DrStudMuffin thanks for educating me without passive aggressive, oblique vitriol (speaking of "rage issues?"). It is seriously appreciated.

IDK about top 14, I think if you leave CCN it's really geographic preference. I'm guessing, but it seems like ~50% of UVA 2L's are jobless - many are looking over to public interest. I heard M isn't much better. Maybe P is different, but if you're not in the top quarter, and not from a small area, you are likely to be in big trouble. I'd keep that in mind before saying UVA > Fordham is necessarily a good bet because. If you are from NYC and are not top 25% at UVA you're in trouble, and cracking top 25% is easier at Fordham. Only 25% of Fordham is gonna get big law, but if you're from NY at much of the top 14, you will likely need to be top 25%.

PepperJack wrote:IDK about top 14, I think if you leave CCN it's really geographic preference. I'm guessing, but it seems like ~50% of UVA 2L's are jobless - many are looking over to public interest. I heard M isn't much better. Maybe P is different, but if you're not in the top quarter, and not from a small area, you are likely to be in big trouble. I'd keep that in mind before saying UVA > Fordham is necessarily a good bet because. If you are from NYC and are not top 25% at UVA you're in trouble, and cracking top 25% is easier at Fordham. Only 25% of Fordham is gonna get big law, but if you're from NY at much of the top 14, you will likely need to be top 25%.

There's a lot wrong with this. First off, by the time it's all said and done, 62% of grads will be in either biglaw or A3 clerkships, which doesn't take into account the 20% of government/PI jobs, or the percentage of state clerkships that are actually decent/meet the student's goals.

If we were to say school funded jobs, "business" jobs, and "unemployed" were all unequivocally bad outcomes, then slightly more than 82% of UVA grads have "successful" outcomes.

If we were to take the same approach for Fordham, we'd find that 61.9% have "successful' outcomes.

This methodology doesn't even begin to address the fact that more than twice as many Fordham grads go to small firms than UVA grads.

twentypercentmore wrote:

PepperJack wrote:IDK about top 14, I think if you leave CCN it's really geographic preference. I'm guessing, but it seems like ~50% of UVA 2L's are jobless - many are looking over to public interest. I heard M isn't much better. Maybe P is different, but if you're not in the top quarter, and not from a small area, you are likely to be in big trouble. I'd keep that in mind before saying UVA > Fordham is necessarily a good bet because. If you are from NYC and are not top 25% at UVA you're in trouble, and cracking top 25% is easier at Fordham. Only 25% of Fordham is gonna get big law, but if you're from NY at much of the top 14, you will likely need to be top 25%.

There's a lot wrong with this. First off, by the time it's all said and done, 62% of grads will be in either biglaw or A3 clerkships, which doesn't take into account the 20% of government/PI jobs, or the percentage of state clerkships that are actually decent/meet the student's goals.

If we were to say school funded jobs, "business" jobs, and "unemployed" were all unequivocally bad outcomes, then slightly more than 82% of UVA grads have "successful" outcomes.

If we were to take the same approach for Fordham, we'd find that 61.9% have "successful' outcomes.

This methodology doesn't even begin to address the fact that more than twice as many Fordham grads go to small firms than UVA grads.

You never really take issue with my argument except to defend your university. I never dispute that UVa's #'s overall are superior to a place like Fordham's. However, a student with a 170 and 3.8 is getting Fordham at a significant discount, and likely paying sticker at UVa so a 2-3% increased chance at NYC is inconsequential given the higher competition and greater cost. Yes, overall it's 20% BUT:

Fordham isn't getting nearly as many Texans or people from Alabama/the Carolinas/Lousiana who routinely produce successful outcomes with 3.0's. There are many people from these regions who are at median or below, and easily get one of the big Texas 160 firms. This pads UVA's #'s, and is only available if you are from these places. What too many don't realize before hand (myself included) is that these areas aren't backup options produced by a place like UVa unless you are originally from there. If you are from a place like NYC, the difference is more negligible and you are competing against a less competent average student at Fordham. I'm not saying the LSAT is predictive of performance, but knowing many people in both institutions I feel comfortable saying there is a noticeable IQ distinction. Additionally, there is likely a work ethic distinction as the special snowflake syndrome rate at UVa is +/- 5%. At Fordham it is much higher. If someone realizes they're very smart but not brilliant (as most students scoring 165-175 on the LSAT likely have IQ's between 115 and 130), they're going to work harder.

I think the debate over school placement and Fordham v. T14 etc. is getting a little off topic from the OP.