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Moonlight
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dr123
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby dr123 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:19 pm

Zero chance at Berk/Stan. You need to retake.

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twenty
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby twenty » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:18 pm

If you don't get into Stanford, Berkeley, or Hastings with a full ride, don't go.

You're not getting any of those with a 159.

Retake.

(Oh, and the not making any improvements thing is BS. I improved about 17 points from my diagnostic to my actual by practicing.)

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Ramius
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby Ramius » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Moonlight wrote:I'm curious, we have so many people in law school and clearly most of them are not at T-14 and not on full rides. Yet I doubt they're all doomed. Where do we all get the idea that it has to be full ride at a T-14? Like I've read this everywhere too, but are we all just getting it from the same sources or is anyone here a primary source?

Depends on where your score starts though for LSAT. I know a good amount of people who have retaken and gotten the same score or a mere 2-3 point increase.


Only about half of law school graduates are doomed in the sense that they will not be employed as a full time, long term lawyer after graduation, based on the most recently available data through the ABA and BLS. The reason people on here stress the importance of maximizing quality/prestige or minimizing debt is because they see law school for what it is for a lot of people: a gamble. They see the recessed legal market today, the astronomical cost of attendance, the patterns of hiring at jobs where one can reasonably facilitate paying off their student loans, and it all starts to weigh pretty heavily. Would you put down $200k+ for a 60% chance of a job that pays approximately $50k? I sure as hell wouldn't. That is the calculus you need to be performing.

To help yourself with becoming better informed about the state of the legal market and the relative performance of the schools you're interested in, check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com.

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twenty
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby twenty » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

First, you don't have to be a full ride at a T-14, you either have to be at a T14 OR on a full ride at a decent regional. I'd call UC Hastings a decent regional.

There's plenty of data out there for why law school is a really bad decision right now, barring a few exceptions. But for an overwhelming majority of the population that doesn't have a 167+ LSAT score and a decent GPA, there's no way it makes sense.

Also, it doesn't really depend at all where your score starts. I'd imagine it's just as hard to go from a 130 to a 150 as it would be to go from a 150 to a 170. I started with a sub-150 score, and I worked my ass off for a 176, which I then proceeded to lose by mis-bubbling a bunch of stuff... oh well. Long story short, if a guy who doesn't even speak English as a first language can go from PTing in the 140s to PTing at 177-180, there's no excuse for not retaking a 159.

Sorry to be so brutal, but you seem like you're a big boy that wants it straight.

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Ramius
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby Ramius » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:23 pm

Honestly, I'd be hesitant to choose either, based on the data they're reporting. I think twenty is right when you need at least a solid regional with a full ride to make it a defensible decision, and I think Santa Clara probably falls outside the realm of solid regional schools. Hastings would be justifiable with a full ride, but they are all in a terribly oversaturated market with two very solid T14 in the area. Beyond that, SF/SV are highly desirable for a good portion of the T14 population who have their eyes set on IP/tech work, making it even more saturated every year.

I'm not saying you can't or won't get a job out of either SCU or UCH, but again, it's a pretty big risk when you consider the cost of time and money involved. I applied last year and ultimately decided that going wasn't in my best interest right now, despite acceptances to schools much better than what you're talking about. It was a personal decision and I had other options available to me beyond law school, so it just wasn't worth it. You need to look at your options when the time comes and decide what is worth it to you. Just remember that when you're talking about law school and performance, assume you're going to be an average graduate of the school getting the average graduate outcome. If you're realistic that you have a very real chance of being unemployed out of those schools saddled with debt you can't pay off and likely in a worse position than you are now, then at least you're going in with eyes wide open. I'm not saying it's the right decision, but at least you're fully aware that you're making it.

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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby indo » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:29 pm

Moonlight wrote:@Matthew - That's fair to say.

@Twentypercentmore - Oh gotcha gotcha. What do you think of Santa Clara then? I know it's not a major nation school, but as a regional school? I think I have a good chance at a good amount of scholarship with them (maybe a full ride if I'm lucky).

Like I've always wanted to go to law school. But at the same time while we're chatting about this, the job market is really bad for Bachelors too isn't it? I haven't compared the two but I imagine the job market is worse for college grads (maybe minus the accounting and engineer majors)

Lol what do you mean you mis-bubbled? Like on test day? That's just rough. Feel for ya. I had a 167 practice score leading up to the exam but I guess it didn't translate over onto the actual test? *shrug* And wow I'm impressed. What is your first language if you don't mind me asking? I'm curious.

And yea I appreciate the honesty. It's better than sugar-coated stuff. If I wanted sugar-coated stuff, I'd go to facebook lol. So are you applying this year or what's your story?

And between Santa Clara and UC Hastings, if I were to get similar scholarships then I imagine I'd take Hastings, but what if I got a full ride for Santa Clara and something less at UC Hastings? And by something less, I mean let's say half tuition and under? What's your opinion then on which of those 2 schools to choose?


Santa Clara will NOT give a lot of money with LSAT 159

http://santaclara.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants

indo
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby indo » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:35 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:First, you don't have to be a full ride at a T-14, you either have to be at a T14 OR on a full ride at a decent regional. I'd call UC Hastings a decent regional.

There's plenty of data out there for why law school is a really bad decision right now, barring a few exceptions. But for an overwhelming majority of the population that doesn't have a 167+ LSAT score and a decent GPA, there's no way it makes sense.

Also, it doesn't really depend at all where your score starts. I'd imagine it's just as hard to go from a 130 to a 150 as it would be to go from a 150 to a 170. I started with a sub-150 score, and I worked my ass off for a 176, which I then proceeded to lose by mis-bubbling a bunch of stuff... oh well. Long story short, if a guy who doesn't even speak English as a first language can go from PTing in the 140s to PTing at 177-180, there's no excuse for not retaking a 159.

Sorry to be so brutal, but you seem like you're a big boy that wants it straight.



+1 150 percent in agreement. Retake and spend the time to study.

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hephaestus
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby hephaestus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:36 pm

Retake. If you don't improve significantly don't go. It's that simple. Avoid Santa Clara.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby DrStudMuffin » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:32 pm

matthewsean85 wrote:
Moonlight wrote:I'm curious, we have so many people in law school and clearly most of them are not at T-14 and not on full rides. Yet I doubt they're all doomed. Where do we all get the idea that it has to be full ride at a T-14? Like I've read this everywhere too, but are we all just getting it from the same sources or is anyone here a primary source?

Depends on where your score starts though for LSAT. I know a good amount of people who have retaken and gotten the same score or a mere 2-3 point increase.


To help yourself with becoming better informed about the state of the legal market and the relative performance of the schools you're interested in, check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Moonlight wrote:So for everyone who says retake, are you all in law school? Or no?

Yes. You'd be crazy not to retake as there is no downside.

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Typhoon24
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby Typhoon24 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:39 pm

Moonlight wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Moonlight wrote:So for everyone who says retake, are you all in law school? Or no?

Yes. You'd be crazy not to retake as there is no downside.


They say they see all scores and isn't the general consensus that its frowned upon to take it multiple times?


not any more. schools now just take the highest. HYS MIGHT have more of a "holistic" look, but I have seen people with terrible first scores and good last scores get into H and S.

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guano
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby guano » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:39 pm

Moonlight wrote:I heard they give out like 20,000 for scores like that in the past year

Even with $20k scholly, Santa Clara would be too expensive

Besides, that money comes with stips (which means you may lose it). Does anyone know if they've been accused of sectionstacking?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Moonlight wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Moonlight wrote:So for everyone who says retake, are you all in law school? Or no?

Yes. You'd be crazy not to retake as there is no downside.


They say they see all scores and isn't the general consensus that its frowned upon to take it multiple times?

You've already taken it once. Your current score is not likely going to be good enough to make law school worthwhile. Law schools don't average scores, but even if they did you'd have nothing to lose by retaking.

Moonlight
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dr123
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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

Postby dr123 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:19 pm

Why can't you take a year off?

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Re: What are my Chances for these Bay Area Law Schools?

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