Is there any chance of getting into HYS with a 3.6ish GPA? Forum

[chaseychase]

I've completed 60 hours (around 50%) of my undergrad degree and have a 3.33 GPA. I've had a positive trend for all four semesters and got a 3.55 this most recent one. If I do really well, the best I can really hope for is a 3.6 GPA. If I were to get a stellar LSAT score, would that give me any shot to attend H Y or S? I'm not really sure if those schools are focused on having qualified candidates (and thus would look favorably on a positive trend), or are foremost concerned with using their candidates' numbers to increase the prestige of the school.

I'm trying to figure out what I should do between now and then to maximize my chances. Given that I'm only halfway through with my degree I feel like I have some advantage in preparation.

[Tiago Splitter]

You can definitely get into Harvard these days with a 3.6, but it'll take a big time LSAT score. That said, two points:

1) You only got a 3.55 this last semester. You need to step up your game quickly if you want to really pull your GPA up, and pulling your GPA up is going to be really important if you want to go to law school.

2) Take easy classes, including classes at a local community college where A+'s are offered, in order to pull your GPA up as high as possible.

[Typhoon24]

with a knockout LSAT, you could get into H. The odds aren't in your favor, so you'll need to crack the books and get a 4.0+ every semester from here on out and score as close to a 180 as possible.

[chaseychase]

1) You only got a 3.55 this last semester. You need to step up your game quickly if you want to really pull your GPA up, and pulling your GPA up is going to be really important if you want to go to law school.

Yeah, true. Granted, I got a 3.55 with 21 credit hours so I'm hopeful that I can hit 3.8/3.9 with a 15-16 hour load.

[rinkrat19]

Take some summer CC classes and/or delay graduation to take extra classes and boost your GPA.

[Ti Malice]

I'm not really sure if those schools are focused on having qualified candidates (and thus would look favorably on a positive trend), or are foremost concerned with using their candidates' numbers to increase the prestige of the school.

These schools don't need to give much credit to an upward grade trend because they receive more than enough apps from people who performed at a high level in college from the opening gun. Even assuming you get up to a 3.6 -- which you're not at all on pace to do at the moment -- there's no reason for Y and S to take a look at you. They're turning away people with 3.9+ GPAs. H's giant class would possibly work in your favor, but only if you offset your unremarkable GPA with a 176+ LSAT.

[Vincent]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p6859501

[nonexpostfacto]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 9&t=214534

A few months ago, I made this thread, concerning this topic. There's a lot of great information for splitters.

[jbagelboy]

In your current position, I wouldn't count on it, but there are a lot of great resources on this site and lawschoolnumbers for answering statistical questions like this.

If you need it for inspiration, then yea Harvard takes the very occasional 3.6/175+.

Focus on doing well in school and don't worry about "HYS" law right now. There are other more splitter friendly law schools too.

[IrishJew]

I've completed 60 hours (around 50%) of my undergrad degree and have a 3.33 GPA. I've had a positive trend for all four semesters and got a 3.55 this most recent one. If I do really well, the best I can really hope for is a 3.6 GPA. If I were to get a stellar LSAT score, would that give me any shot to attend H Y or S? I'm not really sure if those schools are focused on having qualified candidates (and thus would look favorably on a positive trend), or are foremost concerned with using their candidates' numbers to increase the prestige of the school.

I'm trying to figure out what I should do between now and then to maximize my chances. Given that I'm only halfway through with my degree I feel like I have some advantage in preparation.

If you look at LSN and similar resources, you will definitely see success stories. That being said, they are rarer. Obviously the 4.0/180 will always be the ideal.

The anecdotal word seems to be that Y and S are much more idiosyncratic than H is. I know many splitters who were were accepted by Yale and rejected by Harvard, none who go the other way. I suspect it's because Harvard's size is so large and name is such a draw that they have to/can rely on numbers. Allegedly Harvard is trying to improve that reputation, and the LSN graphs show more splitters at Harvard in recent years. Stanford has its share of splitters and more more idiosyncratic admissions process than H, so they say, but on the flip-side they appear to weight GPA more heavily than other schools. That's all what I've heard and seen, nothing certainly nothing definite, mind you.

But you're talking about a lot of hypotheticals a few years out and who knows what the law school world will be like 3 years from now.. You'l probably have a much better sense of things come senior year when you see the grades you have actually earned. My (shocking and innovative) advice to you if you want to have the best chances you can are:
Do the best you can in school for the next two years
Study hard for and do well on the LSAT
Use TLS, LSN, and your school's law counselor (if you have one) to get good personalized advice
Write strong personal statements and get good recs.

Good luck!

[Danger Zone]

But the most likely scenario is that you won't get in to HYS, so don't get your hopes up.

[Mojosodope]

But the most likely scenario is that you won't get in to HYS, so don't get your hopes up.

buzzkill

[Ti Malice]

I know many splitters who were were accepted by Yale and rejected by Harvard, none who go the other way.

Then you know a very unusual set of people; if you do in fact know "many" such people, then they are scattered across many admissions cycles, because Y is extremely splitter-unfriendly, and much more so than H. Y and S have long had considerably more stringent GPA requirements than H for non-URM applicants, and Y's reported numbers are either equal to or better than H's. The vast majority of people accepted at Y were also accepted at H (the reverse is not the case), and the vast majority of people accepted to both will choose Y over H.

I suspect it's because Harvard's size is so large and name is such a draw that they have to/can rely on numbers.

To reiterate, H is much more splitter-friendly than Y or S. With its giant class size, H has no choice but to accept lower GPAs in order to maintain its LSAT numbers.

Allegedly Harvard is trying to improve that reputation, and the LSN graphs show more splitters at Harvard in recent years.

This fact has nothing to do with any imaginary effort to improve a reputation in regard to admissions practices. Harvard wants to preserve its 173 median. To do this in a climate of a steadily contracting applicant pool, they have no choice but to soften their GPA requirements.

Use TLS, LSN, and your school's law counselor (if you have one) to get good personalized advice

The first two, yes. Absolutely not for the third. Pre-law advisors, with rare exception, are some of the most useless people on the planet.

[IrishJew]

..Y and S have long had considerably more stringent GPA requirements than H for non-URM applicants, and Y's reported numbers are either equal to or better than H's. The vast majority of people accepted at Y were also accepted at H (the reverse is not the case)...

This is true: most people who get into Yale are strong GPA/strong LSAT, but that's true at Harvard too. Sure Harvard has more spread, because of its size, but they still don't go that low (25th percentile GPA is still a 3.78). All I meant was that Y (and S) also have much more idiosyncratic admissions processes: if you're demonstrably smart and interesting, have awesome softs, and a good story about your GPA there's a bit more of an "anything can happen" at Y (maybe S too, but I'm less sure about that) than at H. (And the Harvard stats on LSN are somewhat skewed by outright liars or jokers: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/PhillyCollins ). All the people I know who got into Y and not H had killer softs and quirky stories (GPA was low because I... started my own business in sophomore year, did a year abroad to help poor African kids, did a lot of science before switching to history, or whatever)

Yes Harvard wants to gain their numbers and so might take a splitter with a 3.6 or 3.7, but they don't seem to have the "we can take whoever the hell we want" attitude of Yale.

As for your second point, it would be a statistical impossibility for the majority of Harvard admits to get into Yale, so it's not really a perfect comparison, but you are right that Yale is more selective.

This fact has nothing to do with any imaginary effort to improve a reputation in regard to admissions practices. ....

Imaginary or not, it's at least a piece of anecdotal "word on the street, which is all I said it was:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/harvard-law-school.html


As for prelaw advisers, *shrug* I have only worked with two (the one at my undergrad and at my grad school) and they were both good, but I'm happy to concede that this may not be a representative experience.

[Tiago Splitter]

The lowest GPA Yale took two years ago was 3.61. This year only 62 people are attending with GPAs at or below 3.82. It's far less splitter friendly than Harvard, and Harvard isn't at all splitter friendly.

[Ti Malice]

This is true: most people who get into Yale are strong GPA/strong LSAT, but that's true at Harvard too. Sure Harvard has more spread, because of its size, but they still don't go that low (25th percentile GPA is still a 3.78).

H regularly dips much lower than its 25th percentile GPA for high-LSAT applicants. Y and S do not. See:

All I meant was that Y (and S) also have much more idiosyncratic admissions processes: if you're demonstrably smart and interesting, have awesome softs, and a good story about your GPA there's a bit more of an "anything can happen" at Y (maybe S too, but I'm less sure about that) than at H.

You're conflating two different claims. Y and S have much more idiosyncratic admissions processes than H, but that doesn't mean that their admissions processes are more forgiving. With Y in particular, the average applicant will need numbers that are, at a minimum, good enough for H. As the data above shows, H-worthy numbers often will not be Y-worthy. A "good story about your GPA" will almost never do anything for you at Yale.

(And the Harvard stats on LSN are somewhat skewed by outright liars or jokers: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/PhillyCollins ).

There are fake profiles on every top school's page. They aren't prevalent enough to have a significant impact on the statistics. Though, now that you mention it, the single acceptance for Yale in the table above is a fake.

All the people I know who got into Y and not H had killer softs and quirky stories (GPA was low because I... started my own business in sophomore year, did a year abroad to help poor African kids, did a lot of science before switching to history, or whatever)

I really don't believe you know the number of Y/H admits that you claim. (You certainly don't know "many" splitters who were accepted at Y but rejected at H.) The third reason wouldn't count for anything anywhere. Yale routinely rejects science and engineering majors with 3.9+ GPAs; no school would be less sympathetic to this excuse. The first and second reasons also would not mitigate a lower GPA at Yale. Plenty of people here have done things at least as impressive as those while maintaining 3.8+ GPAs. Yale is small enough and its yield is high enough that it has no trouble filling its class with people with both impressive backgrounds and high numbers.

Yes Harvard wants to gain their numbers and so might take a splitter with a 3.6 or 3.7, but they don't seem to have the "we can take whoever the hell we want" attitude of Yale.

That doesn't really meaningfully describe Yale's attitude, which is much more "we can reject whomever the hell we want."

As for your second point, it would be a statistical impossibility for the majority of Harvard admits to get into Yale, so it's not really a perfect comparison, but you are right that Yale is more selective.

There's nothing statistically impossible about it. It's only impossible in practice because Yale crushes Harvard when competing for applicants admitted to both schools. Ask yourself if it would be a statistical impossibility for every Harvard admit to get into Cornell, which is a little smaller than Yale.

[IrishJew]

Ti Malice, really substantive points, and looks like I was way off base on how Y and H compare on splitters, thanks for the stats. Guess I have to eat crow there.

Frankly, I had no idea there were that many numerically top top top candidates. I mean, how many 3.8+ 170+ tap dancers who have written best-selling novels are there? Probably a lot more than I think. I was also probably swayed by Yale's extensive admissions literature/propaganda about their holistic admissions process.

(BTW I know about a half dozen splitters who were admitted by Y and rejected by H, spread out over several years, mostly who applied during the peak, all with incredible softs, most with some grad school or WE, some URM and some off wait-list. I also know a few others who got in at both, but none who got into H and not Y (that I know of). However I went to a school with very hard grading, and I know a TON more people who got rejected by Yale, so my sample is probably not representative. Your LSN stats are a lot more concrete than my fuzzy anecdotal experience.)

[lmsf]

I've completed 60 hours (around 50%) of my undergrad degree and have a 3.33 GPA. I've had a positive trend for all four semesters and got a 3.55 this most recent one. If I do really well, the best I can really hope for is a 3.6 GPA. If I were to get a stellar LSAT score, would that give me any shot to attend H Y or S? I'm not really sure if those schools are focused on having qualified candidates (and thus would look favorably on a positive trend), or are foremost concerned with using their candidates' numbers to increase the prestige of the school.

I'm trying to figure out what I should do between now and then to maximize my chances. Given that I'm only halfway through with my degree I feel like I have some advantage in preparation.

What were your grades before? Did you have 1 really bad semester? If so, your best bet may actually be to see if you can retroactively get some of your bad grades changed to Ws and retake or have a semester removed entirely and have all grades stricken. If your goal is really YHS, you may be better off doing that and taking extra time to finish your degree. And +1 to taking extra CC classes at schools that offer A+.