Application List - 3.76/171

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Arcticlynx
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Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:56 pm

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Last edited by Arcticlynx on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:25 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Toby Ziegler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:38 am

Arcticlynx wrote:Trying to figure out where I should send applications. I’m interested in either international environmental law or intellectual property as it relates to academic institutions and the interface between academic research and industry. LSAT: 171, UGPA: 3.76, Strong Softs: Fulbright, Goldwater, and fist author on a publication that is relevant to both environmental science and intellectual property. Anyhow, I’ve put together a list of the universities that I am considering, but I’d definitely be interested to hear about any schools that you guys think I’ve missed, and I would love to cut a few of these to save some money on application fees. Also, prestige is not the principle component of my decision and I’m probably not going anywhere without a scholarship.

Stanford *
Berkeley
Michigan
Duke**
Cornell
Indiana University (Bloomington)
University of Washington (In State)**
University of Wisconsin
University of Colorado
University of Florida
Lewis & Clark
University of Denver (Strum)
University of Oregon

*Not sure if Stanford is worth the application fee, but I don’t want to wake-up one day and question what would have happened if I had applied. But I wouldn’t mind saving the $100.
**For Sure Applying to Duke and the University of Washington.


So if you all don’t mind giving me your two cents, what would you cut or is there anywhere I should add to the list?
Is there anywhere I shouldn't cut/should apply for scholarship negotiating reasons?

Thanks, for you feedback.

Don't apply to the last 6 on your list or Bloomington, they are not worth attending, especially with your numbers. By not applying to those you will have your app fee at Stanford and better schools worth applying. I would be hesitant as well about UW as a fellow Washingtonian it's our flagship and a great university, but they are so stingy with scholarships. additionally, why is UPenn, NYU, Columbia, and Chicago not on your list? Just geographic region? If you're not opposed to those areas you should definitely apply. And if you're applying to duke you might as well throw an app to UVA. Don't bother with non T-13 schools your numbers are going to get you decent money in the T13.


Edit: Fix typing from my phone.
Last edited by Toby Ziegler on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby BigZuck » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:35 am

I would just apply to the T14 if I were you. You should get at least 90K at Duke (but probably more) and that by itself will blow the non-T14 options out of the water. I would also retake the LSAT.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby DrStudMuffin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:54 am

BigZuck wrote:I would just apply to the T14 if I were you. You should get at least 90K at Duke (but probably more) and that by itself will blow the non-T14 options out of the water. I would also retake the LSAT.


I mean, I know retake is the eternal TLS refrain (generally for good reason), but how much does OP realistically stand to gain with a retake outside of perhaps a Hamilton/Ruby or admission to H? You could definitely argue that these things alone make it worth it, but a 171 is already at or above the vast majority of medians and OP should get sizable schollies to T-14 schools as is.

Outside of trying to snag a Hamilton or Ruby (or H acceptance) with a higher score, it seems like a lot of effort for a potentially minimal payout.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby DrStudMuffin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:01 am

Also OP, unless you have a fee waiver I would eliminate the bottom six schools on your list along with Indiana. They just won't be worthwhile compared to your other options, even at fully scholly. I would also replace these with remaining T-14's, if nothing else for scholarship negotiation purposes.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Toby Ziegler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:14 am

DrStudMuffin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I would just apply to the T14 if I were you. You should get at least 90K at Duke (but probably more) and that by itself will blow the non-T14 options out of the water. I would also retake the LSAT.


I mean, I know retake is the eternal TLS refrain (generally for good reason), but how much does OP realistically stand to gain with a retake outside of perhaps a Hamilton/Ruby or admission to H? You could definitely argue that these things alone make it worth it, but a 171 is already at or above the vast majority of medians and OP should get sizable schollies to T-14 schools as is.

Outside of trying to snag a Hamilton or Ruby (or H acceptance) with a higher score, it seems like a lot of effort for a potentially minimal payout.


I think when scoring a 171 it really depends on a number of variables. If your last 10 PT's have been 176-180 it would be pretty hard to not retake. And if you do have aspirations for HYS you need a higher LSAT score. And it is possible, TheMostDangerousLG retook something like a 170/1 I believe and she scored a 175, don't think she regrets retaking, but of course that is after getting a 175. If I was PT'ing 176-180 for my last 10 or so, it would be hard for me not to retake. Of course this is taking nothing away from a 171, because I am pretty confident that would get me where I need to go, but my GPA is higher than OP's.
TL;DR Retaking in this case is a personal choice based on goals and previous PT's. IMHO

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby DrStudMuffin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:20 am

Travis12 wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I would just apply to the T14 if I were you. You should get at least 90K at Duke (but probably more) and that by itself will blow the non-T14 options out of the water. I would also retake the LSAT.


I mean, I know retake is the eternal TLS refrain (generally for good reason), but how much does OP realistically stand to gain with a retake outside of perhaps a Hamilton/Ruby or admission to H? You could definitely argue that these things alone make it worth it, but a 171 is already at or above the vast majority of medians and OP should get sizable schollies to T-14 schools as is.

Outside of trying to snag a Hamilton or Ruby (or H acceptance) with a higher score, it seems like a lot of effort for a potentially minimal payout.


I think when scoring a 171 it really depends on a number of variables. If your last 10 PT's have been 176-180 it would be pretty hard to not retake. And if you do have aspirations for HYS you need a higher LSAT score. And it is possible, TheMostDangerousLG retook something like a 170/1 I believe and she scored a 175, don't think she regrets retaking, but of course that is after getting a 175. If I was PT'ing 176-180 for my last 10 or so, it would be hard for me not to retake. Of course this is taking nothing away from a 171, because I am pretty confident that would get me where I need to go, but my GPA is higher than OP's.
TL;DR Retaking in this case is a personal choice based on goals and previous PT's. IMHO


A good point.

Arcticlynx
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:33 am

Wow, thank you all so much for the advice. I really appreciate it.
Last edited by Arcticlynx on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Toby Ziegler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:43 am

Arcticlynx wrote:Wow, thank you all so much for the advice. I really appreciate it.

Last 4 PTs were 168, 176, 169, 173… and a retake would be technically difficult because I am moving abroad in a couple of weeks. Not that I am entirely opposed, but it would be a February test and I feel I would be just a likely to drop as gain unless I did a lot of studying.

I’ve been researching law school transparency to revise my list, what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense when I start looking at the employment scores. Also, I wasn’t considering Columbia, UPenn, NYU, Georgetown and Chicago for issues of microgeography – I figured it would be quite expensive to live in a big east coast city, I’ve also visited the University of Chicago, and I don’t see myself as being happy/successful there. UVA was more of an issue of the program not really fitting my ambitions. Duke fits my ambitions better than any other school and is probably my first choice. But I’m definitely cutting Oregon, Florida, Indiana, and probably Lewis & Clark because I think would be nice to get a job after law school. I’m researching other T-30 schools to see if there is anything that I’ve missed in the 15-30 range, if I were to send an application to Columbia, UPenn, or NYU which do you guys think would be my best option.


You're a lock at Duke and probably, as Malice said, going to get over 100k. So if that it your # choice you will be sitting in a very favorable position. So that would be your best option, not only are you going to get a large scholarship, but your cost of living will be low, and you said it fits your interests. If nothing else those schools could potentially give you scholarship leverage with other schools. But it's not very likely that you will get much from CCN, but at the same time they are amazing schools. But from what you have been saying it sounds like Duke is going to work out nicely for you. Haev you graduated already, or is your GPA locked in? Duke's median GPA is 3.77 so if you could bump your GPA up .01 your would be at their GPA median and above their LSAT. This is just a fine tuning point though, for your 171 is going to go a long way at Duke.

BigZuck
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby BigZuck » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:14 am

3.76/169 and I got 60K at Duke originally but 90K at Cornell and Duke matched. I don't know that the 3.76 versus 3.77 would make a difference. The LSAT will be enough to get offered at least 90K out of the gate I think

I said retake because there is zero downside and the upside of snagging Harvard or a bigger scholarship is enormous. People really get hesitant to retake (or to defend people who don't want to retake) but I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a dumb test and basically a free roll to have a life-changingly better result. The only time I would say don't bother retaking a score like a 171 if it was a splitter who had nothing to gain. But I think non-splitters do have something to gain. Potentially a lot to gain.

That being said, if the OP doesn't retake then its not a huge deal because they are going to have awesome options regardless. I just want them to be MAXIMUM AWESOME and that's why I said I would retake.

Arcticlynx
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:31 pm

What happens if I retake in February and my score drops??? Does it hurt me?
Last edited by Arcticlynx on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby BigZuck » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:48 pm

Arcticlynx wrote:What happens if I retake in February and my score drops??? Does it hurt me?

New List, after taking account of you guy's advice and double checking everything against LSN and Law School Transparency, I'm feeling pretty happy with it, like each school has a reason for being on the list - but still open to suggestions. Looked at programs and location and decided that I prefer Minnesota, WUSL, Wisconsin, Washington, and Colorado over UPenn, UVA, NYU, Columbia, and Chicago. This is weighting rankings/prestige at about 15% of the overall importance, location at about 20%, employment outcomes vs. price at about 25%, and academic program fit at about 40%.

Stanford
Berkeley
Duke
Michigan
Cornell
Minnesota
WUSL
Wisconsin
Washington
Colorado

Travis, Bigzuck, and StudMuffin - Thanks for the help.


Score drop doesn't matter. I would drop Wisconsin, Washington, and Colorado. None of those schools are particularly good, you don't need them for scholarship negotiation purposes, and I can't think of a person who would actually have the requisite ties to all those places that would justify seriously considering all of them. Also, I too would probably prefer living in Colorado than Philly but it doesn't make sense to rule out phenomonal schools on the basis of location while keeping mediocre (at best) schools like Colorado in the loop just because you prefer living there.

Doesn't really matter though, you're T14 bound with those numbers. Apply to all of them (maybe save the Yale app fee), negotiate, and see what happens.

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Toby Ziegler
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Toby Ziegler » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:20 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Arcticlynx wrote:What happens if I retake in February and my score drops??? Does it hurt me?

New List, after taking account of you guy's advice and double checking everything against LSN and Law School Transparency, I'm feeling pretty happy with it, like each school has a reason for being on the list - but still open to suggestions. Looked at programs and location and decided that I prefer Minnesota, WUSL, Wisconsin, Washington, and Colorado over UPenn, UVA, NYU, Columbia, and Chicago. This is weighting rankings/prestige at about 15% of the overall importance, location at about 20%, employment outcomes vs. price at about 25%, and academic program fit at about 40%.

Stanford
Berkeley
Duke
Michigan
Cornell
Minnesota
WUSL
Wisconsin
Washington
Colorado

Travis, Bigzuck, and StudMuffin - Thanks for the help.


Score drop doesn't matter. I would drop Wisconsin, Washington, and Colorado. None of those schools are particularly good, you don't need them for scholarship negotiation purposes, and I can't think of a person who would actually have the requisite ties to all those places that would justify seriously considering all of them. Also, I too would probably prefer living in Colorado than Philly but it doesn't make sense to rule out phenomonal schools on the basis of location while keeping mediocre (at best) schools like Colorado in the loop just because you prefer living there.

Doesn't really matter though, you're T14 bound with those numbers. Apply to all of them (maybe save the Yale app fee), negotiate, and see what happens.

This is credited. You are going to be able to attend law school heavily discounted at a much better school than these.

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twenty
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby twenty » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:39 pm

I'm not sure what a "fist author" is ( ;) ), but that aside, definitely blanket the T14. Even if you feel like you'd never go to, say, Michigan, they might offer you enough money to where you're able to negotiate with other schools.

I wouldn't even apply to your safeties (anything below Cornell, minus UW). Those are bigger wastes of money than a Stanford app.

Arcticlynx
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:50 pm

Edit: because I'm dumb. Kudos to twentypercent...
Last edited by Arcticlynx on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby MoMettaMonk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:05 pm

Arcticlynx wrote:Publications in Academic Journals usually include multiple authors, and the first author is normally the project leader. The journal also maters, Nature, Science, or Cell would be worth a lot as a soft, where as if this the Indiana Journal of Agricultural Technology (nobody cares, and I made it up for an example). In my case it's a good publication, but not top of the line.


Think you missed the joke... you typo-ed "first" into "fist," and then misread TPM's "fist" as "first."

Arcticlynx
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:23 pm

Oh.... :oops:, well ya know those fist authors, great soft. The fact that I didn't notice twice is probably why my reading comp suffered.

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby MoMettaMonk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:40 pm

Arcticlynx wrote:Oh.... :oops:, well ya know those fist authors, great soft. The fact that I didn't notice twice is probably why my reading comp suffered.


As someone who also has bad random reading comp fails, I totally sympathize.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:59 pm

if you apply this cycle, when do you plan on applying?

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alexrodriguez
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby alexrodriguez » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:43 am

Why are you not applying to Harvard and Yale?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:11 am

louierodriguez wrote:Why are you not applying to Harvard and Yale?


"My people be projects or jail never Harvard or Yale." -Book of Rhymes, Nas

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby DrStudMuffin » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:23 am

louierodriguez wrote:Why are you not applying to Harvard and Yale?


Yale is a waste of time and an application fee with OP's numbers. And I mean that in a completely positive way, as I am in a similar position re: Yale. The "never know if you don't try" thing sounds nice though.

Harvard is similarly unlikely, albeit slightly less impossible.

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Lincoln
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Lincoln » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:12 am

Arcticlynx wrote:What happens if I retake in February and my score drops??? Does it hurt me?

New List, after taking account of you guy's advice and double checking everything against LSN and Law School Transparency, I'm feeling pretty happy with it, like each school has a reason for being on the list - but still open to suggestions. Looked at programs and location and decided that I prefer Minnesota, WUSL, Wisconsin, Washington, and Colorado over UPenn, UVA, NYU, Columbia, and Chicago. This is weighting rankings/prestige at about 15% of the overall importance, location at about 20%, employment outcomes vs. price at about 25%, and academic program fit at about 40%.

Stanford
Berkeley
Duke
Michigan
Cornell
Minnesota
WUSL
Wisconsin
Washington
Colorado

Travis, Bigzuck, and StudMuffin - Thanks for the help.


I realize there is some room for discretion in what factors you prioritize, but your weighting is off no matter what your personal circumstances are. The last five schools on your list will not get you into academia (in fact, if that's what you want, you have to apply to Harvard and Chicago) so any ideas of academic fit are unimportant unless you also do a Ph.D. at that same school. Moreover, academia is fiercely competitive. There are lots of threads here about what it takes to get there. If you decide you don't want academia or it ends up not being an option, having a good chance at a job is always a good idea, and those schools do not fit the bill.

In your situation I would probably go with Duke over Cornell (and you'll get into both with $), unless Cornell gives you more money and Duke doesn't match. But you may well get a better scholarship from a better school, so applying to at least Columbia and NYU would, if anything, just give you more options.

FWIW, I graduated from Cornell, and I have a fancy-schmancy BigLaw job in NYC. If you have questions about either of those, PM me.

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Crowing
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Crowing » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:52 am

Arcticlynx wrote:Also, I wasn’t considering Columbia, UPenn, NYU, Georgetown and Chicago for issues of microgeography – I figured it would be quite expensive to live in a big east coast city, I’ve also visited the University of Chicago, and I don’t see myself as being happy/successful there.


Depending on how finaid works out the higher CoL may be mitigated, so I think it's definitely worth a shot to at least apply and see how that works out.

Also, could you elaborate on the 2nd point? Feel free to PM me if that would be easier.

Arcticlynx
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Re: Application List - 3.76/171

Postby Arcticlynx » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:22 pm

Crowing & Lincoln I will send PM's with details. I figure the more input I can get on this decision the better - it's kind of a big life choice after all. :)
Last edited by Arcticlynx on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.




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