3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

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jbagelboy
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:52 pm

vlookup1990 wrote:Thanks to everyone for the replies/constructive feedback.

On the topic of why law school: I would like to think that I have a pretty good reason, but unfortunately going into detail would put me at risk of making it very easy for someone (particularly a future adcom) to identify me. However, if it helps I did indicate on my MBA application that I was planning on applying for the joint degree (which requires an additional essay), it came up during my interview, and one of my recommendation letters is from a Harvard JD/MBA. I guess all I can say on this one is assume that I have a good reason based on pretty clear professional interests.

Regarding the LSAT: When I took it cold I got a few wrong on LGS, which I then focused on during my two weeks of studying before the second attempt. I got between 173 and 176 on my last few practice tests but I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I let nerves get the best of me and I didn't bubble in a section on my scantron, realized it at the end of that section with five Qs to go, had to flip back and got nervous about misbubbling, etc. Ended up getting -6 on that LR which ruined my score and knocked me down to the 169 (4/6 I got wrong were on that last page turn that I did after the bubbling fiasco). I should have retaken last October when I was still fresh but work just took over my life.

A few followup questions I have based on all of your initial responses are:
1) If I do retake and get something in the 170-172 range, will that make a difference since it is my third time? Is there really a big difference between an applicant with a 167/169 and one with a 167/169/170 or 167/169/171? I completely understand that getting a 173/174+ would be a significant increase but I don't know if that'd be realistic given the fact that I haven't looked at the test in a year. Also, how much would it hurt if I were to retake and get another 169 or even a 168?
2) Realistically, how much does getting into HBS help in admissions (if at all)?
3) When applying with an intent to defer, will the take my plans during the deferral years into account when considering my application? This is pretty standard in MBA applications but I wasn't sure if it was the same for law school.

Finally, while I take no offense to anyone who says my softs aren't as strong as I may have portrayed them, I would like to defend myself to the extent that I wouldn't consider my inquiry to a derivative of "laziness". I do pride myself on having worked hard my entire life and I don't think it's absurd to want to use my one week of vacation during the year on something other than studying for the LSAT.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your input.


I maintain and reiterate, if your story is true, you will probably get in to Harvard Law with your current LSAT -- just so when OP comes back in seven months with a JS2, he cant say "oh all of TLS said retake and i got in anyway".

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jetsfan1
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby jetsfan1 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:24 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
vlookup1990 wrote:Thanks to everyone for the replies/constructive feedback.

On the topic of why law school: I would like to think that I have a pretty good reason, but unfortunately going into detail would put me at risk of making it very easy for someone (particularly a future adcom) to identify me. However, if it helps I did indicate on my MBA application that I was planning on applying for the joint degree (which requires an additional essay), it came up during my interview, and one of my recommendation letters is from a Harvard JD/MBA. I guess all I can say on this one is assume that I have a good reason based on pretty clear professional interests.

Regarding the LSAT: When I took it cold I got a few wrong on LGS, which I then focused on during my two weeks of studying before the second attempt. I got between 173 and 176 on my last few practice tests but I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I let nerves get the best of me and I didn't bubble in a section on my scantron, realized it at the end of that section with five Qs to go, had to flip back and got nervous about misbubbling, etc. Ended up getting -6 on that LR which ruined my score and knocked me down to the 169 (4/6 I got wrong were on that last page turn that I did after the bubbling fiasco). I should have retaken last October when I was still fresh but work just took over my life.

A few followup questions I have based on all of your initial responses are:
1) If I do retake and get something in the 170-172 range, will that make a difference since it is my third time? Is there really a big difference between an applicant with a 167/169 and one with a 167/169/170 or 167/169/171? I completely understand that getting a 173/174+ would be a significant increase but I don't know if that'd be realistic given the fact that I haven't looked at the test in a year. Also, how much would it hurt if I were to retake and get another 169 or even a 168?
2) Realistically, how much does getting into HBS help in admissions (if at all)?
3) When applying with an intent to defer, will the take my plans during the deferral years into account when considering my application? This is pretty standard in MBA applications but I wasn't sure if it was the same for law school.

Finally, while I take no offense to anyone who says my softs aren't as strong as I may have portrayed them, I would like to defend myself to the extent that I wouldn't consider my inquiry to a derivative of "laziness". I do pride myself on having worked hard my entire life and I don't think it's absurd to want to use my one week of vacation during the year on something other than studying for the LSAT.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your input.


I maintain and reiterate, if your story is true, you will probably get in to Harvard Law with your current LSAT -- just so when OP comes back in seven months with a JS2, he cant say "oh all of TLS said retake and i got in anyway".


Look I think he's got a pretty solid shot too, but if I were OP I would retake just to make sure.

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twenty
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby twenty » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:26 pm

Just to be clear, if he doesn't get HLS this cycle, can't he reapply for HLS after his first year of HBS? I know you can go HLS -> HBS this way.

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby vlookup1990 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:08 pm

I know that the number may seem baffling to those not in the industry, but 100-120 hours a week is not hyperbole in any sense. I eat three meals a day at my desk (which is the norm among analysts), dinner is delivered to our floor via Seamless, and we take cabs home at night. I did a quick google search and found the following post regarding regular hours on an investment banking forum that somewhat parallels this one:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/i ... o-function

That isn't to say that people work 120 hours week after week, but it is expected that the workload would be that intense at least once a month. I've been on a deal when a company was going to default on a debt payment in 8 days because an injunction was ending and negotiations with creditors fell apart at the last minute, and I know for a fact my entire team spent 140 hours in the office that day. Similarly, if one were to have a 90 hour week I would 10000% guarantee that people around the office would either think "Wow you're so lucky" or the more probable "He needs more work". I'm pretty sure that HLS would be well aware of how time intensive these jobs are.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:44 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:How did we get this far in the thread without anyone asking the OP why he actually wants to be a lawyer? There was no indication in the post that OP actually wants to practice law. If he really does have an IB resume, a JD is going to be effectively useless.

Also, I'm gonna call bullshit on working 100-120 hours a week. You'd be dead.


Why? When my unit first got to Iraq all the division essential personnel worked 12hr (Minimum) shifts 7 days a week. That's at least 84hrs a week. I know for the first few weeks at least, I was working between 15-18hrs/day setting up the toc and helping with the transition. That equates to over 100 a week. None of my Soliders got a day off the first month and a half, and I didn't get my first day off until almost 3 months in. Working a 100+/wk for a month and 80+/wk for 3 months sucks but it won't kill you.

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stillwater
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby stillwater » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:57 pm

mitt romney got that JD/MBA. OP has got that boomer mentality to conquer the world. i say go for it if you want. assuming you can get in. why not? also, LOL at why you wanna be a lawyer question when its coupled w a HBS mba

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Cobretti
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby Cobretti » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:13 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I maintain and reiterate, if your story is true, you will probably get in to Harvard Law with your current LSAT -- just so when OP comes back in seven months with a JS2, he cant say "oh all of TLS said retake and i got in anyway".


Look I think he's got a pretty solid shot too, but if I were OP I would retake just to make sure.

+1 my thoughts exactly. Especially given the misbubble on the last test I'd say take the week off and retake. You're obviously a very smart guy and will probably break 170 without another hiccup, so just do that to be safe even though its probably not necessary.

californiauser
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby californiauser » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:18 pm

How pissed are you that you didn't pull a 4.0?

ZVBXRPL
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby ZVBXRPL » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:40 pm

Being that lookup is trying his best to throw adcoms off, for what it's worth, I don't think he got a 169 (think 166-168). Perhaps I am incorrect but I don't see why lookup would distort his softs and not his numbers; it's usually all or nothing.

vlookup1990
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby vlookup1990 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:26 am

One reason I wouldn't be afraid to hide my numbers is there are probably 20,000 kids with a 3.9/169 but very few with my specific softs. Most people can type a few terms into google but the average TLS user doesn't exactly have access to a search engine where they can lookup profiles by GPA/LSAT. Also from a logical standpoint, if I'm hedging my bets and did want to change my numbers as well then I would fudge down, not up (ie. say I got a 169 when I really got a 170).

Regarding the GPA: I don't regret it at all. I spent my time doing a lot of things I really enjoyed at school and I think I did well enough to be proud of my work both academically and out-of-the-classroom during undergrad.

Sorry to harp on this, but does anyone have any input on the timing of the application? Also does it hurt significantly to apply in consecutive years?

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jetsfan1
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby jetsfan1 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:35 am

Apply the minute apps open. Other than that, not sure about consecutive years, but would imagine that if you get rejected one year and do nothing to enhance your app before applying again (work same job, no promotion, don't retake LSAT, etc.) it would be looked down upon. However, if you can show an improved app it would be seen as a positive. Just my feeling, nothing more than that to back it up. But applying the day apps open is a FACT that it will significantly increase your chances, especially at H.

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby ZVBXRPL » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:10 pm

If you got a 170, this thread would be more or less pointless. A 169 or 168 for that matter warrants a thread. Whichever the case, good luck.

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby jingosaur » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:29 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Just to be clear, if he doesn't get HLS this cycle, can't he reapply for HLS after his first year of HBS? I know you can go HLS -> HBS this way.


Yes you can apply to HLS during your first year at HBS. The way the JD/MBA structured for Harvard is:
Year 1: 1L or first year of MBA
Year 2: Whichever you didn't do for Year 1
Year 3: Both
Year 4: Both

OP, if you don't have a 170, you should retake. I'm retaking with a 3.76/170 in October with intentions of applying for the Harvard JD/MBA program among other great programs. And you have way more than enough work/life experience/softs for HLS so don't worry about that second point. BTW, I'm super jealous of you since you have such stellar softs and I'm glad you're not in my B-school application cycle. Good luck!

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby vlookup1990 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:26 pm

goldbh7: I appreciate your kind words. I'm sure you'll do great in your own respective cycles. Please PM me when you do go through them as I'd love to hear where you end up. Also if you need any help with your BSchool apps I'd be happy to do provide whatever feedback I can.

Thank you to everyone whose given me valuable input over the past week. I'm very close to deciding on retaking, but had one last question that somewhat slipped through the cracks. Does anyone know what the multiple score policy is at schools like YHS? Will my current 169/167 be averaged into a 168 for admissions purposes and similarly would a potential higher score be considered "diluted" because it was a third attempt? Would I need a 173 to equate myself to a one-time 171 applicant? Also, not that the extreme work hours will (or should) be used as an excuse for a lack-luster score, but would this aspect of the situation have a mitigating effect on any potential discounting due to multiple attempts? Thesee are all pretty much variants of the same concern so again if anyone has any knoweldge of the adcom thought process on this matter I'd be very grateful.

vlookup1990
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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby vlookup1990 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:37 pm

Sorry but also forgot this last outstanding thought: someone had mentioned Stanford earlier and I was unaware they would be more lenient to an applicant like myself. I searched around the forum and saw that Y & S have a more "holistic" application, which I assume was what the original comment was referring to.

I did get into GSB as well as HBS this past cycle, and in the last week have been considering GSB for the first time (during applications I had always considered HBS my top choice). Not to go too off topic but could anyone shed light on whether or not they think my app would have a stronger chance at either Y or S? Thanks again!

PS. The reason I ask about Y is because there is a Yale JD / Harvard MBA program that would be an option if I did get into Y (although I originally thought that impossible given my LSAT).

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby Cobretti » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:48 pm

vlookup1990 wrote:Sorry but also forgot this last outstanding thought: someone had mentioned Stanford earlier and I was unaware they would be more lenient to an applicant like myself. I searched around the forum and saw that Y & S have a more "holistic" application, which I assume was what the original comment was referring to.

I did get into GSB as well as HBS this past cycle, and in the last week have been considering GSB for the first time (during applications I had always considered HBS my top choice). Not to go too off topic but could anyone shed light on whether or not they think my app would have a stronger chance at either Y or S? Thanks again!

PS. The reason I ask about Y is because there is a Yale JD / Harvard MBA program that would be an option if I did get into Y (although I originally thought that impossible given my LSAT).

Your numbers are a much stronger fit for what S is looking for, and you're right that they will likely put more weight on your impressive soft factors than H. Y is very difficult to predict, but they tend to be the worst of both worlds... where you need the numbers for H and the softs for S. You would probably need a higher LSAT for a shot at Y, but I'd expect you to get S as is.

I'm under the impression you need to decide if you're going to HBS or GBS now, since you will be applying to LS as a first year. With that situation I don't think you have such a better shot at S over H that you should take GBS over HBS unless you really don't have a preference for HBS. Your chances are likely very strong at both as is so I'd still just stick to whichever you prefer.

ETA: but taking the week off to study for a retake just to be safe is TCR either way

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Re: 3.9/169/super softs/HBS acceptance: Chances at HLS

Postby pupshaw » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:29 pm

vlookup1990 wrote:goldbh7: I appreciate your kind words. I'm sure you'll do great in your own respective cycles. Please PM me when you do go through them as I'd love to hear where you end up. Also if you need any help with your BSchool apps I'd be happy to do provide whatever feedback I can.

Thank you to everyone whose given me valuable input over the past week. I'm very close to deciding on retaking, but had one last question that somewhat slipped through the cracks. Does anyone know what the multiple score policy is at schools like YHS? Will my current 169/167 be averaged into a 168 for admissions purposes and similarly would a potential higher score be considered "diluted" because it was a third attempt? Would I need a 173 to equate myself to a one-time 171 applicant? Also, not that the extreme work hours will (or should) be used as an excuse for a lack-luster score, but would this aspect of the situation have a mitigating effect on any potential discounting due to multiple attempts? Thesee are all pretty much variants of the same concern so again if anyone has any knoweldge of the adcom thought process on this matter I'd be very grateful.


No one can give you a definite answer to this question. Conventional wisdom is that HYS, unlike most other schools, at least take notice of multiple scores. How exactly they do so is anyone's guess. For whatever one piece of anecdotal evidence is worth: I was a retaker with a large score jump (168-->177), and JS asked about the difference in my scores during my interview. I think it's important not to make excuses for your first score. Just say you under performed, but were confident you could improve.




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