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I fought with myself and didn't want to make a thread, but I caved in. At first I was very happy with my LSAT, but wasn't sure if I should retake or not based on my terrible LSDAS gpa. I know I can do better on the LSAT, I basically studied for 2 months on and off between finals at the end of last semester and 3 summer classes that started the week after finals.

LSAT (June 13): 172
LSDAS GPA: ~2.4
UGPA: ~3.7

I also have a pretty crappy undergrad history. I started going to school right after high school. Didn't care about school at all, got quite a large amount of Fs. Also never really saw my adviser so I ended up taking very very few required generals and focused on classes that I thought were cool and a lot of major-related courses. After several years I dropped out.

Wanted to start school again someplace that I didn't have a lot of bad habits set up, so a couple years later I transferred and started over (almost literally with all of the generals that I had yet to take). Graduate next May, have a ridiculous upward trend since transferring, and an even stronger upward trend towards the end.

I also don't know if this work experience counts for anything (there is a lot of back and forth about work experience, but this is all pre-UG, albeit in a place that a lot of people make their careers). Started 8 years ago at a call center for a FI, after about 3.5 years I moved to email correspondence, then after another 3 years got promoted to a position where I answer written correspondence that comes through regulatory agencies. Handle concerns that deal with fed regs/compliance issues. Have been in this role for about 1.5 years. have worked full time (40 hours) for the extent of these 8 years.

Here is the list of schools that I am considering applying to. The first 5 are essentially reach schools that i don't expect I should get with my numbers and history. Please let me know if I am batting out of my league or if I really should consider a retake in October. Thank you!

Intended Applications:
Michigan
UVA
NU
Cornell
GULC

WUSTL
UMN
UIUC
UW
ND

Also, I have lived my entire life in the Midwest and am seriously considering staying here (preferably Chicago, next preference being Minneapolis).

Thanks!

Your combination of rare circumstances (URM, super-splitter, UG/WE history) makes your cycle tough to predict. Maybe other posters here can be more helpful. But once your cycle is over, it would be great if you came back to post your results/decision ITT. I'm super curious to see where you end up and I'm sure other URM splitters are too.

Congrats on the score. I would apply to ccn down if I were you. Some will probably say your gpa is too low for ccn, but I think you have a shot at ccn down because basically everyone wants to pick up an AA at or above their lsat median. Its a reach but worth a shot.

You are a very rare cookie.

In at a few t14s and big scholarships from T30s for sure

Nova wrote:Congrats on the score. I would apply to ccn down if I were you. Some will probably say your gpa is too low for ccn, but I think you have a shot at ccn down because basically everyone wants to pick up an AA at or above their lsat median. Its a reach but worth a shot.

You are a very rare cookie.

In at a few t14s and big scholarships from T30s for sure

Thanks for the congrats and the reply. this is what i was hoping for but looking at mylsn crushed my dreams lmao. somehow, reading it right here gave me a wave of hope though

Edit: Nova posted before I could finish, damn it. Still posting what's below. Ignore anything that explicitly disagrees with what Nova says. I still think you should take time to up that GPA, though.

There's basically no data to help anyone predict your cycle if you apply with anything close to that GPA. From what I gather from Nova's posts, you're either likely one of the top ten scorers among AA males nationwide this cycle, or maybe one of the top ten scorers among all AA applicants, which makes you a potentially very valuable applicant. On the other hand, that GPA is going to kill you at a lot of places. You might still get one or more of those T14 schools to bite, but there's nothing guaranteed when you're sub-2.5. If you apply with these numbers, you should apply everywhere from CCN on down, because there's no way of predicting results for individual schools. If you get into a T14, you'll almost certainly pay full freight or very close to it.

The good news is that you haven't graduated yet. You shouldn't apply this fall. Honestly, you shouldn't even apply to graduate next May. You should finish your coursework where you are now but not officially graduate, since graduating permanently freezes your GPA. Load up on easy-A courses at a community college over the summer and fall of 2014 and apply that same fall (and squeeze some fluff classes in next spring if you have an easy schedule). Apply for graduation in December. Having no idea of how many total hours of classes you've taken to this point, I have no idea how much you'll be able to shift your GPA. But if you could get it up to at least 2.8, you would have guaranteed T14 options, possibly with money, and probably huge money at some of the strong Midwestern regional schools. (Then again, it's possible that you would already have substantial money at UMN and WUSTL. Nova, a UMN student, would again know more about this.)

to be perfectly honest, it will take me years to up my gpa. as it is, i will have something around 160 credits when i graduate (that whole time in my first UG i did a major entirely unrelated to what i am doing now. and, like i said in the first post, extremely few required generals). if i do take time off, it will probably be just to gain WE, i don't think the extra year of time/energy/money is worth it for me to get from a 2.4 to a 2.5. then again, i could be entirely mistaken

EDIT: I'm a moron. at the end of this summer LSDAS: ~2.4, if i continue to push it i can be up to ~2.6 by graduation in may (2.7 if i extend through next summer). With that difference, would you all recommend holding for a cycle prior to applying? and if so, worth a retake to try and get 175+, or just run with my 172?

I think Ti is spot on. The sample size is way too small to show trends. Nothing is a given, but if you blanket 4-14, odds are in your favor. Your score is safely in the top 10 AA scores within the past year.

UMN doesnt have much of a GPA floor. I know nonURMs with 17x /2.xs who got 60-75k scholarships. My friens was a URM above the lsat median and below a 3.0 and got 105k. Desperation to maintain medians has gone up since my cycle. Wustl is giving full rides to 166/3.3s and 175/2.xs nonURMs this year. Getting above a b- average should help a lot.

My suspicion is that you are in at NU.

Thank you all for your input. Another question - would it be entirely impractical to apply very early this cycle and try to see where things end up, and if they do not go as I had hoped, delay graduating to try and up the GPA so I can apply next cycle? Or would it just make more sense to focus another year on my GPA and hold off entirely on this cycle? I don't know if previous dings at a school impact future applications or not, and I don't know if its practical to assume I will hear back quickly enough due to potential WL situations, which, if I am not mistaken, can go into the summer. Sorry for all of the questions, its just been a long road to try and get up to this point and I don't want to make one bad decision that jeopardizes my chances/negatively impacts my future. One year feels like forever to me, but I know its a small price to pay if it will potentially provide a better future in the long run.

Completely practical with no repercussions. Infact, I'd go far as to say you definitely should before using a year to just pad your GPA.

Yeah, don't worry at all about rushing to apply. Just delay graduation to get that GPA up.

Hard to say where you might be in because there's almost literally zero precedent for your situation.

You'd think adcoms would jump at the chance to bump median lsats, but the truth is that plenty of extreme urm splitters like you don't get into t14. It's not like I know that many urm splitter cycles, but I've seen them go not so well. You'll probably get t1 acceptances with money, but t14 is unpredictable and you might not get much money even if you get in. Boost your GPA as much as you can and then apply broadly.

With that many credits already completed OP is going to have a very hard time raising his GPA. Do we really think a 2.8 is any different than a 2.6? Worth an entire year of UG tuition? I think sub 3.0 is sub 3.0 and OP should try applying and see how it goes. Applications are cheaper than another year of tuition, so it would be better to gamble with the cheaper option first IMO.

Cobretti wrote: Do we really think a 2.8 is any different than a 2.6? Worth an entire year of UG tuition?

That's a good point - if admitting a particular student means that he'd have the lowest GPA in the entering 1L class, it doesn't matter to the school's median if he's .01 point below the next-lowest guy, or a full point lower.

Come back to TLS and tell everyone what ends up happening with your cycle. Your cycle outcomes will serve as a very good reference for future peeps.

Take the year and apply in 2014 with a full GPA. Why apply with definitively worse chance? A 2.6 urm opens up doors almost entirely closed with 2.4. Applying before you've graduated and maxed out your GPA would be nearly as destructive as getting the Fs in the first place

Some will probably say your gpa is too low for ccn, but I think you have a shot at ccn down because basically everyone wants to pick up an AA at or above their lsat median.

Does this same rule of satisfying medians apply to those URM's who are above gpa medians but below lsat medians. For example, a 3.9X applying to Harvard but with a 160?

jrd93 wrote:

Some will probably say your gpa is too low for ccn, but I think you have a shot at ccn down because basically everyone wants to pick up an AA at or above their lsat median.

Does this same rule of satisfying medians apply to those URM's who are above gpa medians but below lsat medians. For example, a 3.9X applying to Harvard but with a 160?

No, actually they are accepted at very, very high rates.


Above GPA




Above LSAT (agrees with soj)





One reason I can think of is that there is a known discrepancy in URM vs non URM test takers as far as unexplained test bias and so the LSAT may be weighted to a much lesser degree for URMs on those grounds

Or maybe, a 162 is still like 85% or something versus 99% whereas a 3.9+ is 95%+ and a 2.3-9 is like bottom 40%.

I don't see how this can be explained purely from medians.

But as you can see OP, the data points are severely lacking for the above median LSATs and so any sound prediction is going to be very difficult. Especially with your upward trend in GPA

IE:



(These searches also surely have some fake profiles (as they are extremes) present)

I hate to spout conspiracy theories, but maybe URM splitters don't always do well because adcoms assume, sometimes without realizing it, that URMs with low GPAs are lazy, whereas adcoms might be more generous with attributing non-URM low GPAs to extenuating circumstances. Obviously I'm talking out of my ass, but even trained adcoms are making quick judgments and vulnerable to implicit biases. I think this might explain why URMs below both medians but with solid stats get in easily whereas splitters don't, even though obviously splitters are more helpful to medians. And URM reverse splitters always do well, of course. It might be critical for you to dispel the stereotype through a good PS, GPA addendum, or recommendations.

Get your GPA as high as you can, but then blanket the entire T-14, except maybe yale but I'm not even sure there. HS app is worth the $140 IMO. AA male with median LSAT/shit GPA is the kind of thing an individual addcom might go to bat for, so you just want to maximize the odds of that person winning the argument by making it occur as many times as possible. Also, this is one of those cases where writing a fantastic PS is critical. Per your question, though, a person in your situation might have a 5% chance at H or S, which would give us our disappointing admission statistics but still make it worth the app fee, especially because you could have really strange things happen like get into NYU and shutout at the rest of the T-14. You're not in anywhere, but you're not out anywhere either.

thank you all very much for your input and feedback. this is all very useful information and is really helpful to consider when making my decision. i am still torn between tossing out apps this cycle, and then applying again next cycle if i don't get the results i want, or holding off this cycle and extending my graduation through next summer to try and boost gpa as much as possible. i have some time to mull it over though, but if i apply this cycle i will definitely post back with results and post up on lsn as well.

If I were you, I would apply this cycle.

If it doesn't work out, apply again next cycle. May as well roll the unpredictable dice twice if necessary.

Agreed. As far as I know, applying twice doesn't hurt you so I don't see why you wouldn't

yeah i think i have decided to apply this cycle and still extend my graduation through next summer, that way if i don't get what i want i still have the opportunity to take a few extra classes to boost my gpa as much as possible. try to take the best of both options there has been a lot of great advice posted here, i am extremely thankful for all of the input! if anyone else has other suggestions or input, i'm always willing to consider additional advice haha

AA Male Super Splitters are rare, so I thought I thought I'd share my results with you from this past cycle. I have similar numbers (172/2.7) with similar academic history (C's, D's, and F's early on with a crazy upward trend in my last years of college) and a few years of work experience as well. It was definitely interesting. I applied mostly to schools in the South and Midwest. I eventually was accepted to Texas and chose UT Law over NU and GULC bc of the lower cost.

Of the schools you're planning on applying to here's how it worked out for me:

UVA - Denied (Maybe I should have ED'd?)
NU - WL --> IN w/ $ (not significant)
GULC - WL --> IN at sticker
WUSTL - IN w/ $$
UMN - IN w/ $$
ND - WL --> IN w/ $