3.95, 168 AA female, Chances at a Hamilton? Retake? Forum

[twenty]

To be entirely honest (and I don't want to come across as antagonistic, forgive me), I don't fully understand your infatuation with the Hamilton scholarship. While CCN places slightly better once you get below median and perhaps into more highly-ranked firms, you're not losing out on any real opportunities by going to Duke instead.

There was a time several years back when Columbia meant 100% chance at NYC biglaw, while everyone else was kind of trailing behind. Today, pretty much every T-13 school has about a 60%-65% shot at biglaw, and the difference is definitely marginal enough to take a full ride at, say, Northwestern over a half scholarship at Columbia.

I appreciate that you're thinking in the right direction in looking to Columbia with a full ride over HYS if you want biglaw, but don't get so hung up on the Hamilton side that you feel like a failure with anything less.

[Ti Malice]

OP, you should be good almost everywhere with your current numbers. It depends on how you present yourself for Y and S, but I think your chances are excellent as long as you don't come across as a total misanthrope or a felon.

I know of 2 people (1 AA male and 1 AA female) who received Hamiltons during the 2011-2012 cycle. I believe the AA male had 3.86/169 and the AA female had 4/172. I know another AA male who received a Butler with a 3.7~/170. As others have said, a 170+ score would give you a very good shot at a Hamilton (and other full rides within the T6), but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Honestly, unless you're debt averse or just want to do BIGLAW, I might just take my HYS acceptance and run with it if I were you. And, IMO, you don't need a higher score for HYS to come calling.

Thanks! But yeah, I am really debt averse. I really don't understand how someone would not be debt averse, unless their family is loaded. Still, it seems like for AA females, 172 is the "magic" score for a Hamilton.

No idea what your financial aid app would look like, but YHS can be quite generous with need-based aid. Something to keep in mind if it's relevant to you.

[howlery]

OP, you should be good almost everywhere with your current numbers. It depends on how you present yourself for Y and S, but I think your chances are excellent as long as you don't come across as a total misanthrope or a felon.

I know of 2 people (1 AA male and 1 AA female) who received Hamiltons during the 2011-2012 cycle. I believe the AA male had 3.86/169 and the AA female had 4/172. I know another AA male who received a Butler with a 3.7~/170. As others have said, a 170+ score would give you a very good shot at a Hamilton (and other full rides within the T6), but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Honestly, unless you're debt averse or just want to do BIGLAW, I might just take my HYS acceptance and run with it if I were you. And, IMO, you don't need a higher score for HYS to come calling.

Thanks! But yeah, I am really debt averse. I really don't understand how someone would not be debt averse, unless their family is loaded. Still, it seems like for AA females, 172 is the "magic" score for a Hamilton.

No idea what your financial aid app would look like, but YHS can be quite generous with need-based aid. Something to keep in mind if it's relevant to you.

But the base loan amount, at least at H, would require $100k+ in debt AFAIK. You'll have to fork over most of your earnings from a 1/2L SA too. If you're after biglaw, which I'm guessing the OP is, a Hamilton/Ruby/AnBryce would allow you to graduate close to if not completely debt free.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I appreciate that you're thinking in the right direction in looking to Columbia with a full ride over HYS if you want biglaw, but don't get so hung up on the Hamilton side that you feel like a failure with anything less.

This. A Hamilton is quite literally the most difficult thing to get in the entire law school admissions process. Getting one means you're among the few dozen most qualified applicants in the whole process. In terms of selectivity, it's a bit like asking how to get a SCOTUS clerkship. It's good to have high aspirations--a Hamilton is, in my opinion, the best possible outcome an applicant can get absent significant need aid at Yale--but don't be disappointed to fall short of a ridiculously lofty standard.

[JamMasterJ]

Grats on everything OP! Just wondering how the situation would be different as an AA male. The 3.7/174 who got a Hamilton was an AA female with lots of WE if I remember correctly. I currently have a 3.7, should 174 be my target? I'm aiming for a 180 either way, but just wondering what would secure a full ride at CCN.

people need to realize that Hamilton/Ruby and whatever are rare scholarships. There's no such thing as stats that would "secure" it. You would have a great shot with a 174, but that by no means that you could ever truly have it on lock

[JamMasterJ]

Today, pretty much every T-13 school has about a 60%-65% shot at biglaw, and the difference is definitely marginal enough to take a full ride at, say, Northwestern over a half scholarship at Columbia.

this isn't true. CCN have a 80-85% shot at BL

[twenty]

this isn't true. CCN have a 80-85% shot at BL

Last year Columbia had kids solidly below median (maybe in the 30-40th percentile?) that were definitely not walking away with biglaw. Has legal hiring improved so drastically over the last year that CCN's 60% average last year is now 80%+?

[jbagelboy]

this isn't true. CCN have a 80-85% shot at BL

Last year Columbia had kids solidly below median (maybe in the 30-40th percentile?) that were definitely not walking away with biglaw. Has legal hiring improved so drastically over the last year that CCN's 60% average last year is now 80%+?

Lol this is wrong. Come on dude you've seen the numbers, even just the raw biglaw+AIIi is ~75% and thats excluding the prestige PI and mckinsey/BCG/industry hires each year (makig $150K+ non legal). If some kids at 40th percentile didnt get 2L SAs at CLS, they weren't looking for corporate work, or they were individual cases that fucked up their bids or a key interview.

92% of Columbia EIP got offers. That should tell you whats up

You basically have to be bottom 20% to miss at CLS. It was never as bad as you are describing. Its most likely the same at Chicago, although I never researched that as extensively.

[Ti Malice]

OP, you should be good almost everywhere with your current numbers. It depends on how you present yourself for Y and S, but I think your chances are excellent as long as you don't come across as a total misanthrope or a felon.

I know of 2 people (1 AA male and 1 AA female) who received Hamiltons during the 2011-2012 cycle. I believe the AA male had 3.86/169 and the AA female had 4/172. I know another AA male who received a Butler with a 3.7~/170. As others have said, a 170+ score would give you a very good shot at a Hamilton (and other full rides within the T6), but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Honestly, unless you're debt averse or just want to do BIGLAW, I might just take my HYS acceptance and run with it if I were you. And, IMO, you don't need a higher score for HYS to come calling.

Thanks! But yeah, I am really debt averse. I really don't understand how someone would not be debt averse, unless their family is loaded. Still, it seems like for AA females, 172 is the "magic" score for a Hamilton.

No idea what your financial aid app would look like, but YHS can be quite generous with need-based aid. Something to keep in mind if it's relevant to you.

But the base loan amount, at least at H, would require $100k+ in debt AFAIK. You'll have to fork over most of your earnings from a 1/2L SA too. If you're after biglaw, which I'm guessing the OP is, a Hamilton/Ruby/AnBryce would allow you to graduate close to if not completely debt free.

Right. But none of those scholarships are anything close to a given for OP or for anyone else. On the other hand, she's essentially a lock at H. I'm not arguing in favor of one choice over the other. Maybe she receives and decides on a Darrow or Mordecai instead of H. Great. I'm just letting her know that, depending on her situation, she could be looking at far less than sticker at H (and YS) even if she doesn't get the scholarships she wants.

[yellowumbrella]

This. A Hamilton is quite literally the most difficult thing to get in the entire law school admissions process. Getting one means you're among the few dozen most qualified applicants in the whole process. In terms of selectivity, it's a bit like asking how to get a SCOTUS clerkship. It's good to have high aspirations--a Hamilton is, in my opinion, the best possible outcome an applicant can get absent significant need aid at Yale--but don't be disappointed to fall short of a ridiculously lofty standard.

This conversation has totally gone off on a tangent and people are debating options I don't even have lol, but I agree with the above. I do, however, think you can determine that, say, a 150 is not gonna cut it, and a 180/4/URM/olympic gold medalist with no disciplinary history makes it probable.

I won't be able to help being disappointed if I don't get it, because it's my ideal outcome, but I definitely wouldn't feel like a failure.

people need to realize that Hamilton/Ruby and whatever are rare scholarships. There's no such thing as stats that would "secure" it. You would have a great shot with a 174, but that by no means that you could ever truly have it on lock

I agree that nothing would "secure" it, but I really just needed to decide if a 168 would make it possible, and it seems to me that it's pretty far-fetched at less than 172. I've already decided to retake.

[gnomgnomuch]

With your grades you should be a lock at H (y/s are possible, maybe even likely, but nobody ever really knows, especially with Y). For a Hamilton you might be out of the running, but your AA status might propel you up (though If you really want it, retake for 173+ (that should land you at least a Butler).

Couple things though:
1) You would be a lock for a Mordecai and a Darrow (Duke, Michigan) so if Big Law is your only aspiration take that and run.(unless of course you get a Hamilton)
2) If you want PI/Clerkship/Big Fed... you should be shooting for HYS especially since they have great LRAP programs.

With your stat's you are in at 1 (maybe 2 or even all 3) of YHS... in everywhere after that, with significant money coming from CCN and most likely full rides (plus maybe even stipends) for lower t-14.

It all comes down to what you want to do with your JD though.

[nygrrrl]

Thanks! But yeah, I am really debt averse. I really don't understand how someone would not be debt averse, unless their family is loaded. Still, it seems like for AA females, 172 is the "magic" score for a Hamilton.

I am incredibly debt averse and made.... well, ALL of my law school decisions based on that! IMHO? You're gold for admissions right now, but if you can stomach a retake and pop 3-4 points on that score the money you'll see will be vastly different. Congrats on your great score/grades to date and best of luck!

[yellowumbrella]

Thanks! But yeah, I am really debt averse. I really don't understand how someone would not be debt averse, unless their family is loaded. Still, it seems like for AA females, 172 is the "magic" score for a Hamilton.

I am incredibly debt averse and made.... well, ALL of my law school decisions based on that! IMHO? You're gold for admissions right now, but if you can stomach a retake and pop 3-4 points on that score the money you'll see will be vastly different. Congrats on your great score/grades to date and best of luck!

Bless this post. lol

[yellowumbrella]

With your grades you should be a lock at H (y/s are possible, maybe even likely, but nobody ever really knows, especially with Y). For a Hamilton you might be out of the running, but your AA status might propel you up (though If you really want it, retake for 173+ (that should land you at least a Butler).

Couple things though:
1) You would be a lock for a Mordecai and a Darrow (Duke, Michigan) so if Big Law is your only aspiration take that and run.(unless of course you get a Hamilton)
2) If you want PI/Clerkship/Big Fed... you should be shooting for HYS especially since they have great LRAP programs.

With your stat's you are in at 1 (maybe 2 or even all 3) of YHS... in everywhere after that, with significant money coming from CCN and most likely full rides (plus maybe even stipends) for lower t-14.

It all comes down to what you want to do with your JD though.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I think you're right.

1)I definitely see how these are good options. Thanks for recommending them, but I really just don't want to live or work in NC or MI.
2)I like to think I'm open to anything, but I need to admit to myself that I definitely lean towards Big Fed.

But again, all of this is imaginary. I'll make a "Choosing a Law School" thread when the time comes, and I'd be happy if any of these things came up. For now, I just need to focus on my retake and not possibilities (even if they are shiny, wonderful possibilities).