Harvard KS and Law

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politics89
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Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:57 am

So I'm really interested in doing a joint Harvard Law/HKS MPP degree but I haven't found much information online regarding stats on those doing that or how competitive HKS is as they take LSATs if you're pursuing a joint degree and not just GRE. Is there anyone out there who has done this and can give me more information?

I got a 180 on the LSATs but I only had a 3.78 GPA and I'm worried that will hurt me. I have a year of work expereince now and will have another before I apply (because that seems like a big deal to them from everything I've read but idk). I don't really have any amazing softs other than that the field I work in now (politics) is what I want to do after graduation.

Any thoughts or advice?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:41 am

I would be really surprised if you didn't get into Harvard.

Worth noting that HKS has a concurrent program with Yale, Stanford, and Columbia (Hamilton?) if you're more set on Kennedy than HLS.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:25 pm

Congrats on the 180. You have to take the GRE, but it's a far less rigorous exam than the LSAT, so you shouldn't have trouble getting near 170 in verbal/math as long as you review your high school precalculus/algebra.

As mono said, it's also worth looking in to the nearby schools programs, although obviously staying in Cambridge all 4 yrs would be more convenient. Barring some unforeseen weakness in your app, you should be pretty set on Harvard with a 180 and 3.75+.

Lastly, I was originally excited about the idea of a dual degree (except I was doing CLS JD/Princeton WW MPP), but after doing some digging I've realized I'm not sure how much it would help me achieve my goals, and it would end up costing more $ and time. Have you thought about why you might want to get a masters and what kind of opportunities it would open up that the harvard JD wouldn't?

There's a thread on it in the Law School Admissions forum.

good luck!

politics89
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:45 pm

You actually dont have to take the GRE if youre applying to go joint with Harvard Law, if youre applying joint with another school you do. I don't really get how joint would work with an institution in another state.

I read a lot about masters and how they can actually hurt you by making you too specific in the job market, do you think thats true? I feel like that could be a benefit if I know what I want to do, but I also am concerned I might change my mind (the allure of big $ and all that).

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:54 pm

politics89 wrote:You actually dont have to take the GRE if youre applying to go joint with Harvard Law, if youre applying joint with another school you do. I don't really get how joint would work with an institution in another state.

I read a lot about masters and how they can actually hurt you by making you too specific in the job market, do you think thats true? I feel like that could be a benefit if I know what I want to do, but I also am concerned I might change my mind (the allure of big $ and all that).


Cool, I didn't know the harvard jd/mpp dual you could evade the GRE.

Generally, if you do a joint program between two schools, you spend 3 years at one and 1 year + a summer at the other or some variant of that. Obviously it's easier staying on the east coast, but even Stanford has dual programs with some ivies where you move for one year.

I would go and research 1) what hks mpp's do after graduation and 2) what those who have done a dual program have gone on to do. The MPP candidates I know have largely ended up in policy work, either at the federal level with a department or with an organization like a union/advocacy group/NLRB or an international NGO doing research. At most MPP programs, you have a specific track, and that track & the network you develop from it somewhat informs your employment options. A lot of MPP students also end up underemployed, but probably less so from the kennedy school, where high tier management consulting is probably a solid backup.

The issue you pointed to is that doing a 4 year program sometimes fucks with your OCI, and blocks you from the "allure of big $". I'm not saying its impossible, but it's definitely a little different. Having the MPP doesn't net you a higher salary in biglaw though, so it would be a little silly to go the additional $75K into debt/spend another $75K for the same end result.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:23 pm

I was under the impression that JD/MPPs are almost exclusively federal government workers. What exactly are you targeting, OP?

politics89
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:04 pm

I want to work in legislation either at a federal or state level. I know a lot of people who have JDs and a lot who have MPAs but no MPPs or joints. So working here I do understand that I won't be making a lot of money in this field, which is one reason I liked Harvard and its loan forgiveness program :o

Also, I personally am more attracted to the thought of an MPP, I think it sounds more interesting, however, I think a law degree would be more helpful which is what lead me to the idea of doing a joint program.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:32 pm

MPPs are almost exclusively public-sector workers and, unless they're science types, usually don't make a ton of money.

It's possible the JD/MPP could get you a good DC job, but like you said, I would probably count on LRAP.

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twenty
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby twenty » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:35 pm

Keep in mind that Harvard only allows 30k worth of debt to be picked up by its LRAP. So if you do one year at HKS, plus two years at 25% tuition cost (75% at the law school), you end up having paid 63k -- though only 30k of that will be eligible for LRAP.

I dunno man. That's a lot of money on a PI salary (notoriously low). Especially if the degree isn't going to help you that much.

I want to work in legislation either at a federal or state level


Look very closely at the LRAP programs. Partisan politics is for sure not covered under the IBR/PSLF route -- though Harvard may be an exception since they don't tie into IBR.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:03 pm

politics89 wrote:I want to work in legislation either at a federal or state level. I know a lot of people who have JDs and a lot who have MPAs but no MPPs or joints. So working here I do understand that I won't be making a lot of money in this field, which is one reason I liked Harvard and its loan forgiveness program :o

Also, I personally am more attracted to the thought of an MPP, I think it sounds more interesting, however, I think a law degree would be more helpful which is what lead me to the idea of doing a joint program.


What do you mean when you say "work in legislation"? On the Hill? Leg counsel? Or policy analysis?

politics89
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:38 am

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
politics89 wrote:I want to work in legislation either at a federal or state level. I know a lot of people who have JDs and a lot who have MPAs but no MPPs or joints. So working here I do understand that I won't be making a lot of money in this field, which is one reason I liked Harvard and its loan forgiveness program :o

Also, I personally am more attracted to the thought of an MPP, I think it sounds more interesting, however, I think a law degree would be more helpful which is what lead me to the idea of doing a joint program.


What do you mean when you say "work in legislation"? On the Hill? Leg counsel? Or policy analysis?


Honestly all of those paths seem interesting to me. I haven't decided ultimately what I want to do.

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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby jyrkchicken » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:48 pm

As someone with identical stats who is attending HLS next fall, I just want to add that you can apply to the Kennedy School program in the fall of your first year at HLS... so, if you aren't sure, no need to decide before you find out about HLS. My impression was that, assuming you can write a compelling case for why you want an MPP, the Kennedy School doesn't turn down too many people who have already gotten into HLS. Most of the people I talked to made getting into the MPP program seem like a formality.

They did also say that they thought getting the joint degree might make a person less attractive to potential employers outside of government because they might assume that the person would rather be working in government and could jump ship at any time. It's worth thinking about if you really want it, as it will obviously take an extra year, more $$$, and might limit some other job prospects. All that said, I'm still considering it.

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby wert3813 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:55 pm

jyrkchicken wrote:As someone with identical stats who is attending HLS next fall, I just want to add that you can apply to the Kennedy School program in the fall of your first year at HLS... so, if you aren't sure, no need to decide before you find out about HLS. My impression was that, assuming you can write a compelling case for why you want an MPP, the Kennedy School doesn't turn down too many people who have already gotten into HLS. Most of the people I talked to made getting into the MPP program seem like a formality.

They did also say that they thought getting the joint degree might make a person less attractive to potential employers outside of government because they might assume that the person would rather be working in government and could jump ship at any time. It's worth thinking about if you really want it, as it will obviously take an extra year, more $$$, and might limit some other job prospects. All that said, I'm still considering it.

Here's the question in my mind. What job would we get that we could not get with just HLS on our resume? Maybe like some cool state department, labor, CIA, etc. shit that is outside of general counsel? Most policy positions on the hill you have a decent* shot at with just HLS depending on your background.

*Decent is relative.

politics89
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:08 pm

wert3813 wrote:
jyrkchicken wrote:As someone with identical stats who is attending HLS next fall, I just want to add that you can apply to the Kennedy School program in the fall of your first year at HLS... so, if you aren't sure, no need to decide before you find out about HLS. My impression was that, assuming you can write a compelling case for why you want an MPP, the Kennedy School doesn't turn down too many people who have already gotten into HLS. Most of the people I talked to made getting into the MPP program seem like a formality.

They did also say that they thought getting the joint degree might make a person less attractive to potential employers outside of government because they might assume that the person would rather be working in government and could jump ship at any time. It's worth thinking about if you really want it, as it will obviously take an extra year, more $$$, and might limit some other job prospects. All that said, I'm still considering it.

Here's the question in my mind. What job would we get that we could not get with just HLS on our resume? Maybe like some cool state department, labor, CIA, etc. shit that is outside of general counsel? Most policy positions on the hill you have a decent* shot at with just HLS depending on your background.

*Decent is relative.


Maybe its silly but it's not necessarily about just jobs for me. I just think the program sounds super fascinating and these are things I'd love to learn about it. Also I spoke to someone in the program and he said the networking opportunities can be a lot better because with HLS youre getting all kinds of lawyers whereas with HKS youre getting people much more targeted to the field you want to work in (at least the field I want to work in).

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby wert3813 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:29 pm

politics89 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:
jyrkchicken wrote:As someone with identical stats who is attending HLS next fall, I just want to add that you can apply to the Kennedy School program in the fall of your first year at HLS... so, if you aren't sure, no need to decide before you find out about HLS. My impression was that, assuming you can write a compelling case for why you want an MPP, the Kennedy School doesn't turn down too many people who have already gotten into HLS. Most of the people I talked to made getting into the MPP program seem like a formality.

They did also say that they thought getting the joint degree might make a person less attractive to potential employers outside of government because they might assume that the person would rather be working in government and could jump ship at any time. It's worth thinking about if you really want it, as it will obviously take an extra year, more $$$, and might limit some other job prospects. All that said, I'm still considering it.

Here's the question in my mind. What job would we get that we could not get with just HLS on our resume? Maybe like some cool state department, labor, CIA, etc. shit that is outside of general counsel? Most policy positions on the hill you have a decent* shot at with just HLS depending on your background.

*Decent is relative.


Maybe its silly but it's not necessarily about just jobs for me. I just think the program sounds super fascinating and these are things I'd love to learn about it. Also I spoke to someone in the program and he said the networking opportunities can be a lot better because with HLS youre getting all kinds of lawyers whereas with HKS youre getting people much more targeted to the field you want to work in (at least the field I want to work in).

Maybe just KS for you then?

politics89
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby politics89 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:02 pm

wert3813 wrote:
politics89 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:
jyrkchicken wrote:As someone with identical stats who is attending HLS next fall, I just want to add that you can apply to the Kennedy School program in the fall of your first year at HLS... so, if you aren't sure, no need to decide before you find out about HLS. My impression was that, assuming you can write a compelling case for why you want an MPP, the Kennedy School doesn't turn down too many people who have already gotten into HLS. Most of the people I talked to made getting into the MPP program seem like a formality.

They did also say that they thought getting the joint degree might make a person less attractive to potential employers outside of government because they might assume that the person would rather be working in government and could jump ship at any time. It's worth thinking about if you really want it, as it will obviously take an extra year, more $$$, and might limit some other job prospects. All that said, I'm still considering it.

Here's the question in my mind. What job would we get that we could not get with just HLS on our resume? Maybe like some cool state department, labor, CIA, etc. shit that is outside of general counsel? Most policy positions on the hill you have a decent* shot at with just HLS depending on your background.

*Decent is relative.


Maybe its silly but it's not necessarily about just jobs for me. I just think the program sounds super fascinating and these are things I'd love to learn about it. Also I spoke to someone in the program and he said the networking opportunities can be a lot better because with HLS youre getting all kinds of lawyers whereas with HKS youre getting people much more targeted to the field you want to work in (at least the field I want to work in).

Maybe just KS for you then?


Yea except a lot of jobs require a JD. I see job applications come around where I work and for things like chief of staff its "recommended" and from counsel to committees or such it's a definite requirement.

Also, maybe I'm off base on this but it seems like its still more prestigious to have a JD than a masters? (and by that I mean when it comes to hiring practices)

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:46 pm

For hill positions, JD > MPA/MPP. If HLS JD, add a few > to that equation.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby AllTheLawz » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:06 pm

HKS isn't competitive at all

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jselson
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby jselson » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:45 pm

I'm a bit interested in this question since my goal is the DOJ, but would JD + clerkship to possibly a few years doing lit at a major firm to DOJ be the best track? Would an MPP help at all for this?

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jetsfan1
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Re: Harvard KS and Law

Postby jetsfan1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Tag/bump BC something im interested in as well




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