2.97/180 Splitter

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BitterSplitter
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby BitterSplitter » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:50 pm

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kiyoku
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby kiyoku » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:07 am

Columbia and down! Don't you like NYU? NYU is right on for you man =)

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Clearly
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:22 am

kiyoku wrote:Columbia and down! Don't you like NYU? NYU is right on for you man =)

NYU is still a longshot below 3.3

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:51 am

BitterSplitter wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
BitterSplitter wrote: This is the best time in the last 50 years to apply to law school with a low GPA; aim higher.


I appreciate the positive sentiments, but getting into law school with a low GPA is harder than it's ever been, judging by schools' 25th percentiles.


True. I think these 25ths are going to plummet shortly though. Dearth in high LSAT = more splitters accepted = lower 25th.

Then again, medians are a bizarre statistical creature. We have no idea how low the bottom 20% of GPA's are, and what the distribution really looks like in the middle quartiles.


I think, like jbagel implied, those are old stats Oeuvre. This app cycle is drastically different than any before, including the last cycle. I applied during both cycles with a sub3 GPA and, anecdotally, I noticed a huge difference. Also, I think jbagel is accurate with the plummeting of the 25th(and maybe 75th) stats after this cycle. Schools are not going to forgo median stats that count towards ranking for ones that don't like the 25th 75th and that means accepting splitters to make up for all the high lsat scorers that aren't matriculating because of this economy. To add to this, no school wants to lower their medians and drop in the rankings (if other schools didn't median drop around them) so until they correct class sizes to keep their traditional median levels stable without letting more splitters in you're gonna see splitters getting far better results. I think that it'll happen as early as next year (at the top end) which is why im not personally retaking/reapplying but that's pure speculation on my part and the rest is more 'inferenced' or 'educationally guessed' for lack of a better word/phrase.


It's not drastically different and it's still harder to get into law school than it was ten years ago, even though we've lost 40% of the applicant pool. It's true that more median-gaming will make it more splitter-friendly, but to imply the difference would be significant enough to offset the massive increase in standards that has been continous over the past 40 years would be disingenuous.

From the 2010 cycle to the 2012 cycle, we saw a pretty sharp decrease in T14 applicants but not much good data to suggest GPA standards had dropped. Not only did the average 25% GPA of the T14 not drop significantly, it actually increased (Duke was the only school who had a larger decrease than .03).

LSN, however, does suggest it's easier to get into a T14 with below a 3.5, compared to 2010. This suggests even the 25% numbers are somewhat gamed. I think the idea that the desire to keep medians (especially those at 170) will help splitters has some merit, but just keep in perspective that standards are never going to retreat to where they used to be. In 1961, the total number of schools with a median LSAT of 160 or higher was eight (!).

dstars823
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby dstars823 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:25 am

in my honest opinion as a splitter and this may be anecdotal, but i think my cycle this year has been much easier than when i applied in 2010, a lot of my WL became accepts with $$$ and my denies became WL --> accepts. I think with the massive dropoff in scorers above 170 a lot of schools even some lower T14s may have a hard time keeping their medians without dropping class size

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:37 am

dstars823 wrote:in my honest opinion as a splitter and this may be anecdotal, but i think my cycle this year has been much easier than when i applied in 2010, a lot of my WL became accepts with $$$ and my denies became WL --> accepts. I think with the massive dropoff in scorers above 170 a lot of schools even some lower T14s may have a hard time keeping their medians without dropping class size


Well, yeah, 2010 was presumably the hardest year ever to get into law school. UVA, Penn and Northwestern have been desperately trying to hold on to those 170 medians, and Duke and Georgetown already lost them. But really, the fact that the 25% LSAT dropped way harder than the 25% GPA suggests more friendliness towards reverse-splitters (and therefore more desire to keep the GPA median up). It's easier to get it than maybe it was three or four years ago, but certainly not easier than ten years ago.

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BitterSplitter
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby BitterSplitter » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:37 pm

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Dufayshomeboy
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Dufayshomeboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:07 pm

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BitterSplitter
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby BitterSplitter » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:29 pm

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:11 pm

BitterSplitter wrote:
Dufayshomeboy wrote:I'm assuming even with everything that has been said, getting into UChicago would probably be near impossible for me?


That happens to be a school that is high on academia...any school like that is unlikely to pull alot of splitters..it also happens to be #1 in a huge market that doesn't get nearly as much outside competition as its counterparts (ny dc) so it attracts a large number of high last high GPA students to not necessarily need many splitters. That being said, I personally feel that if you round out your app that no school outside of HYS is completely out of reach. But to be totally honest people like sinfiery cobretti mrizza oeuvre noodley and the other t10 applicants who have done sufficient research on the t5 and have pulled close to 180 on the lsat will be better at helping you answer that..not sure if they are all splitters tho check out my post history I made a thread for splitter results specific to this app cycle a lot of the ppl I mentioned wrote their results in there

I'm sorry to say this, OP, but Chicago isvery unlikely to happen for you. By all means apply (you never know!) but UChi is known for preferring High GPA/lowerLSAT (well, relatively lower, lol) reverse-splitters. They are not a friendly school for candidates with your stats.

Then again, I have friends with low 3.X/high 17X stats who got into UChicago and, by bartering between UChi and NU, were also given hefty scholarships. So who knows? Apply if you have the money for it, but keep your expectations realistic.

Dufayshomeboy
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Dufayshomeboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:48 pm

Thanks for the honest feedback! UChicago would of course be a biiiiiig stretch.

It is nice though to see that so many people think I have a good shot at some of the T-14 with my numbers. Looks like I'll be spending my summer/fall crafting the best personal statement and essays possible...and getting some good LORs.

Ti Malice
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:03 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:It's not drastically different and it's still harder to get into law school than it was ten years ago, even though we've lost 40% of the applicant pool.


The bolded is not necessarily the case. The ABA change to reporting only applicants' highest scores means you can't simply compare a school's reported LSAT 25th/median/75th numbers from, say, 2003 with the same numbers from today.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:30 am

BitterSplitter wrote: That could be as a result of trying to keep gpa medians up after letting in a lot of splitters by accepting reverse splitters and the fact that it's easier to get splitters with not as bad gpas than reverse splitters with not as bad lsats. Basically its easier/more frequent for a high lsat scorer to get a decent gpa than a high gpa scorer to get a decent lsat. Decent being around the old 25th numbers.


The evidence would regardless suggest the schools will go deeper with reverse splitters than they will with splitter, given that the 25ths for GPA aren't moving but the 25ths for LSAT are in fact dropping. I have no doubt schools are making heavy use of both, just that I suggest the reverse splitters are having a bigger impact on the numbers.

I may have been a bit over the top with the 50 years comment, but its more like 20 which is the majority of most applicants' lifetime anyways. TBH most of my research over the last couple of years was schools ranging from 15-30 with a few splitter friendly t14s in there as well. I don't doubt at all that the 25th 75th stats are gamed but they will be the first to drop for the ssake of medians IMO. I do have to say that it IS drastically different this year though. Saying otherwise is ignoring almost every splitter post on TLS outside the t15. Just because we haven't had stats come out by USN doesn't mean we can't surmise the trend beforehand. Its almost obvious by all the sub 3 splitters getting WL>admits with hella money to t20 schools by just having a median LSAT (happened twice to me alone). I don't doubt that the top 10 are greatly unaffected and seeing as that is your range of schools (grats on uva) I see why you think that its not drastically different. But talk to all the people going to t18-t30ish schools and they'll paint a completely different picture for you (esp the splitters). But like I said earlier I think this is an anomalous year and that after this the top schools will definitely adjust in some way shape or form and splitters wont have nearly as much WL action with schollys or reach acceptances as this cycle. just my .02 though


Even 15 years ago was easier. A 3.5/165 non-URM was a coin flip at UVA the late '90s. NB that most T14s can't drop the 25th/75ths without dropping the medians because the medians are gamed basically as much as possible already. If I wasn't clear before, I'm saying it is easier for splitters, across the board, than it was in the 2010 cycle, and the LSN evidence of the sub-3.0s at T15-30 suggests as much. I'm pretty sure we're agreeing it's easier this cycle than a few years earlier. I'm just pointing out that standards have been rising for a long time and not to take this year out of perspective.

Ti Malice wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:It's not drastically different and it's still harder to get into law school than it was ten years ago, even though we've lost 40% of the applicant pool.


The bolded is not necessarily the case. The ABA change to reporting only applicants' highest scores means you can't simply compare a school's reported LSAT 25th/median/75th numbers from, say, 2003 with the same numbers from today.


The change first came into play for the Class of 2010, right? The lack of a spike in LSAT standards would suggest the policy had little effect. It is still harder to get in, on average, than it was ten years ago. If Class of 2013 was the peak of difficulty, we probably fell back to the Class of 2009 of 2010 in terms of difficulty.

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jbagelboy
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Re: 2.97/180 Splitter

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:32 pm

Dufayshomeboy wrote:I'm assuming even with everything that has been said, getting into UChicago would probably be near impossible for me?


lol no, Chicago is basically impossible sorry, but Northwestern is very available to you and it's only a few % pts lower shot for biglaw. NU is a great school. It can't open some of the more restricted fields in gov and academia that chicago gives a slimmer of a shot at, but outside of HYS the chances are so low that it doesn't make a huge difference anyway.




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