GPA / "lsat score split

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:19 am

I agree 4 laws schools is too many and plan on attending the
University of Pittsburgh or Chicago kent (the later if I score well enough). I'm asking sincerely seeing as you know a bit more than I do on this subject matter. Do you think u of Pitt is a good choice in regards to possible employment after graduation or what would you recomend. I am trying to get out of this state and east coast is calling my name.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby jingosaur » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:44 am

azditamo wrote:I agree 4 laws schools is too many and plan on attending the
University of Pittsburgh or Chicago kent (the later if I score well enough). I'm asking sincerely seeing as you know a bit more than I do on this subject matter. Do you think u of Pitt is a good choice in regards to possible employment after graduation or what would you recomend. I am trying to get out of this state and east coast is calling my name.


Any non T-14 law school that you attend will be extremely regional so you should first make sure that you want to live in that area for several years after graduation. You also want to get costs down as much as possible since your first job (if you get one) will likely pay in the $40k-$60k range. As far as which schools prefer LSAT and which prefer GPA, use http://yale.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1213 and just change up schools. As you mentioned, many TT(T)(T) schools have very lax admissions policies because they desperately needs students and need people paying sticker to fund all of the scholarships they need to give out to keep their medians. Approach your cycle with a "buyer beware" attitude. Some schools will say whatever it takes to get you to go to their school.

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:04 pm

goldbh7 wrote:
azditamo wrote:I agree 4 laws schools is too many and plan on attending the
University of Pittsburgh or Chicago kent (the later if I score well enough). I'm asking sincerely seeing as you know a bit more than I do on this subject matter. Do you think u of Pitt is a good choice in regards to possible employment after graduation or what would you recomend. I am trying to get out of this state and east coast is calling my name.


Any non T-14 law school that you attend will be extremely regional so you should first make sure that you want to live in that area for several years after graduation. You also want to get costs down as much as possible since your first job (if you get one) will likely pay in the $40k-$60k range. As far as which schools prefer LSAT and which prefer GPA, use http://yale.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1213 and just change up schools. As you mentioned, many TT(T)(T) schools have very lax admissions policies because they desperately needs students and need people paying sticker to fund all of the scholarships they need to give out to keep their medians. Approach your cycle with a "buyer beware" attitude. Some schools will say whatever it takes to get you to go to their school.



Thanks for the info. As for paying sticker I refuse to do that. Mainly because I think with the score I want to get I should not have to and if they ask me to do so they can shove it. Basically what I'm getting out of his is if I want to be flexible geographically speaking I have to attend a t14 but if I'm ok with the local surrounding a flagship school is ok. That's good to me. I love Philly and hope to make a career out there. Also I know well I think I would know what's beneficial in regard to finance considering I have a finance degree and do that sort of stuff for work.

Ti Malice
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:59 pm

azditamo wrote:I appreciate your response, and it does make sense. How come there has been a drop in lsat score, you would think with the prep courses and people self studying scoring would trend upwards. Or I'm I wrong for assuming that?


Increased use of prep courses has in fact resulted in a greater percentage of people achieving higher scores. You can see the change in the percentile charts over the years. A 171 used to be 99th percentile. Now the lowest 99th percentile score is a 172, and the 172 is perilously close to becoming 98th percentile. A 160 was 83rd percentile a decade ago, but now it's only 80th.

However, this minor shift is completely overwhelmed by successive years of double-digit percentage declines in the number of test-takers. There are far fewer people taking the test now than there were three years ago.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:09 pm

azditamo wrote:Basically what I'm getting out of his is if I want to be flexible geographically speaking I have to attend a t14 but if I'm ok with the local surrounding a flagship school is ok. That's good to me. I love Philly and hope to make a career out there.


Well, just know that western PA and Philly are not in the same "region." Pitt is not going to help you much with Philly. If you want a shot at a legal job in Philly out of a non-T14, then you need to be looking at Temple or 'Nova. And you need to fully appreciate the significant risk that you will never work as a lawyer out of either.

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:14 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
azditamo wrote:Basically what I'm getting out of his is if I want to be flexible geographically speaking I have to attend a t14 but if I'm ok with the local surrounding a flagship school is ok. That's good to me. I love Philly and hope to make a career out there.


Well, just know that western PA and Philly are not in the same "region." Pitt is not going to help you much with Philly. If you want a shot at a legal job in Philly out of a non-T14, then you need to be looking at Temple or 'Nova. And you need to fully appreciate the significant risk that you will never work as a lawyer out of either.



Seriously why do you say that?

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Homelandsagreatshow
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Homelandsagreatshow » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:22 pm

^Because Philly can fill their market with Temple, Nova, Penn and other T14 Grads (the hometown schools show commitment to the area, and the T14 Grads looks way better on the Firm's website.

I guess a counter-question would be, why would the want to take Pitt grads, when they can easily fill their legal market with people that are at the top of the local schools (once again showing "interest") and other T14 grads from Philly/with Philly ties/with good credentials/with the T14 name.

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Homelandsagreatshow
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Homelandsagreatshow » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:23 pm

Misread the question...

Because there's a surplus of schools and the better schools will take the jobs while the crappy schools are left in the dirt.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:10 am

Homelandsagreatshow wrote:Misread the question...

Because there's a surplus of schools and the better schools will take the jobs while the crappy schools are left in the dirt.


I think you guessed the meaning of his question correctly the first time. Impossible to say without clarification, but he seems big on going to Pitt and working in Philly, so I think he was surprised to hear that this wasn't a great plan. Then again, maybe his question was targeted to my last statement after all.

azditamo wrote:Seriously why do you say that?


Are you asking why I said that attending Pitt for law school was not a great idea if you want to work in Philly? If so, I mean, I wonder why you're surprised. Western PA and Eastern PA/Philly might as well be parts of two different states. The cultural differences are enormous. The fact that two towns/areas are part of the same state doesn't mean anything by itself. Do you think New Yorkers (as in people from NYC) feel any real cultural affinity for people from Buffalo or Albany (or vice versa)? For a Manhattanite, upstate NY may as well be on a different planet altogether. As for spatial distance, Chicago and Columbus, OH are about as far from one another as Philly and Pittsburgh. Do you think people in Chicago feel any special bond with people from central OH?

Like the vast majority of law schools, Pitt will largely place locally. The very top of the class at Pitt will have options elsewhere, but the remainder, if they find work as lawyers, are generally not going to end up very far from Pittsburgh. This is why slavish devotion to USNWR's rankings is a really bad idea. No one hiring for legal jobs in Pittsburgh cares that Pepperdine ranks thirty spots higher than Pitt. And no employer in Philly cares that U of Iowa ranks thirty spots higher than Temple.

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:24 am

Ti Malice wrote:
Homelandsagreatshow wrote:Misread the question...

Because there's a surplus of schools and the better schools will take the jobs while the crappy schools are left in the dirt.


I think you guessed the meaning of his question correctly the first time. Impossible to say without clarification, but he seems big on going to Pitt and working in Philly, so I think he was surprised to hear that this wasn't a great plan. Then again, maybe his question was targeted to my last statement after all.

azditamo wrote:Seriously why do you say that?


Are you asking why I said that attending Pitt for law school was not a great idea if you want to work in Philly? If so, I mean, I wonder why you're surprised. Western PA and Eastern PA/Philly might as well be parts of two different states. The cultural differences are enormous. The fact that two towns/areas are part of the same state doesn't mean anything by itself. Do you think New Yorkers (as in people from NYC) feel any real cultural affinity for people from Buffalo or Albany (or vice versa)? For a Manhattanite, upstate NY may as well be on a different planet altogether. As for spatial distance, Chicago and Columbus, OH are about as far from one another as Philly and Pittsburgh. Do you think people in Chicago feel any special bond with people from central OH?

Like the vast majority of law schools, Pitt will largely place locally. The very top of the class at Pitt will have options elsewhere, but the remainder, if they find work as lawyers, are generally not going to end up very far from Pittsburgh. This is why slavish devotion to USNWR's rankings is a really bad idea. No one hiring for legal jobs in Pittsburgh cares that Pepperdine ranks thirty spots higher than Pitt. And no employer in Philly cares that U of Iowa ranks thirty spots higher than Temple.


To be honest I was not aware of the difference, I was under the impression if you went to Pitt you would be able to work in pa anywhere you want. Maybe I just need to talk to some people from that region and get some information. Or just bite the bullet do well on the lsat and apply to the u of m and see if I can make it to east coast. With that said if everything being perfect I would love to practice law on the east coast Philly va dc that would be the dream.

So correct me if I'm wrong if I want to ever make it out in Philly east or west I would need to go to a top ranked school there like temple to allow me to be flexible in picking regions. My follow up question would be where should I be looking at in order to be able to practice law in the east coast while making sure I actually get a job as a lawyer more specifically I'm think of becoming a prosecutor.

My fear is I take this on go to some place no family no friends get into a school do everything no job and tons of loans over my head and have to be forced to come back to my home state and beg for jobs.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:09 pm

azditamo wrote:To be honest I was not aware of the difference, I was under the impression if you went to Pitt you would be able to work in pa anywhere you want. Maybe I just need to talk to some people from that region and get some information. Or just bite the bullet do well on the lsat and apply to the u of m and see if I can make it to east coast. With that said if everything being perfect I would love to practice law on the east coast Philly va dc that would be the dream.

So correct me if I'm wrong if I want to ever make it out in Philly east or west I would need to go to a top ranked school there like temple to allow me to be flexible in picking regions. My follow up question would be where should I be looking at in order to be able to practice law in the east coast while making sure I actually get a job as a lawyer more specifically I'm think of becoming a prosecutor.

My fear is I take this on go to some place no family no friends get into a school do everything no job and tons of loans over my head and have to be forced to come back to my home state and beg for jobs.


Quick correction: Temple is definitely not a top-ranked school. It's a lower-ranked Philly school that takes a backseat to Penn and other top schools in placement in Philly. It's just that, if you can't get into an elite school, your odds for Philly are better from there than from a local school anywhere else.

It's critical to understand that almost all law schools place locally. Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are the only schools with true national placement power, but even then there are restrictions (we'll get to ties in a minute). The rest of the T14 place best in their regions (or in NYC, the country's largest legal market by far) but can still travel to other places, depending on grades and ties. Texas, Vandy, UCLA, and USC are the in-between schools that do very well in placing in their regions but less well than the T14 at getting people outside of those regions.

You have to understand that some markets are very insular and very suspicious of outsiders. Employers don't want to waste time and resources developing your skills only to see you flee to a sexier locale as soon as the possibility presents itself. NYC and DC are the only legal markets that don't care about ties at all. Everywhere else, ties matter from a little to a lot. Even someone with good grades from a T14 is going to have a very difficult time getting a job in Seattle if he or she has no prior significant connection to the city or the Pacific NW, for instance. Employers in Philly are also going to doubt that someone with no connection to the town before law school is really interested in staying.

To take one comment from your post above: "Maybe I just need to...bite the bullet do well on the lsat." Yes, that's exactly what you need to do. And if it doesn't go well enough the first time, retake until it does. In your entire legal career, nothing (aside from serious criminal activity) will determine your options more than your score on the LSAT. Good LSAT scores can also result in scholarships ranging from a few thousand dollars to well over $100K. The LSAT is everything. Study for it like nothing you've ever studied for before. A school like Michigan will give you a far greater array of options than a local school like Pitt or Temple.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Lexaholik » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:02 pm

azditamo wrote:In order to get into a law school that is good without having to pay sticker. In other words if one of your scores is low does that condemn you to a low tier school and less of a chance of a scholarship or can you offset that by either having a higher GPA with a low lsat. let say you have a gpa thats like 2.1-2.9 could you combat that with a 170 lsat or on the other case a 3. 8 with like 140-150.


no it does not condemn you. however, be aware that:

1. you need to do well on the lsat first. i've noticed that lots of people on this forum like to ask hypos, like "if i scored a 170+.." stop asking hypos and focus instead on studying.

2. even if your practice scores are in the 170s, you can still score in the 160s. this happens more often than you might think.

3. even if you score in the 170s, and you get into some local school on a full scholly, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in law school. doesn't make it impossible, but there are probably personality factors that led you to getting low grades in the first place that haven't changed. this is excacerbated by the fact that you may even develop overconfidence going in to 1L.

4. even if you get into a top school, you will be surrounded by 3.5+/170+ students. no matter what you think about your abilities, it will be tough to compete with them.

i'm not saying you can't do it; i myself was in your situation years ago. i guess the reaosn why i post this is because back then i didn't realize that getting into a good school is only the beginning.

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:34 pm

zombie associate wrote:
azditamo wrote:In order to get into a law school that is good without having to pay sticker. In other words if one of your scores is low does that condemn you to a low tier school and less of a chance of a scholarship or can you offset that by either having a higher GPA with a low lsat. let say you have a gpa thats like 2.1-2.9 could you combat that with a 170 lsat or on the other case a 3. 8 with like 140-150.


no it does not condemn you. however, be aware that:

1. you need to do well on the lsat first. i've noticed that lots of people on this forum like to ask hypos, like "if i scored a 170+.." stop asking hypos and focus instead on studying.

2. even if your practice scores are in the 170s, you can still score in the 160s. this happens more often than you might think.

3. even if you score in the 170s, and you get into some local school on a full scholly, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in law school. doesn't make it impossible, but there are probably personality factors that led you to getting low grades in the first place that haven't changed. this is excacerbated by the fact that you may even develop overconfidence going in to 1L.

4. even if you get into a top school, you will be surrounded by 3.5+/170+ students. no matter what you think about your abilities, it will be tough to compete with them.

i'm not saying you can't do it; i myself was in your situation years ago. i guess the reaosn why i post this is because back then i didn't realize that getting into a good school is only the beginning.



I understand that getting into law is not the end and graduating is not either trust me when I say I know. As for competing with classmate I'm no stranger. I can handle my own int jay regard. This has been very informative thank you everybody.

I will just focus on the lsat and come back when I apply. Thank you again.

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Nova » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:18 am

azditamo wrote:I agree 4 laws schools is too many and plan on attending the
University of Pittsburgh or Chicago kent (the later if I score well enough). I'm asking sincerely seeing as you know a bit more than I do on this subject matter. Do you think u of Pitt is a good choice in regards to possible employment after graduation or what would you recomend. I am trying to get out of this state and east coast is calling my name.


I agree with Ti's explantion, which was much more articulate than mine would have been.

If you score in the high 160s and dont get into a T14, your best option may very well be UMN/WUSTL with $$... which isnt bad since it sounds like you have midwest ties, as long as you wouldnt living in the midwest long term.

Good luck on the LSAT!

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azditamo
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby azditamo » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:48 pm

Nova wrote:
azditamo wrote:I agree 4 laws schools is too many and plan on attending the
University of Pittsburgh or Chicago kent (the later if I score well enough). I'm asking sincerely seeing as you know a bit more than I do on this subject matter. Do you think u of Pitt is a good choice in regards to possible employment after graduation or what would you recomend. I am trying to get out of this state and east coast is calling my name.


I agree with Ti's explantion, which was much more articulate than mine would have been.

If you score in the high 160s and dont get into a T14, your best option may very well be UMN/WUSTL with $$... which isnt bad since it sounds like you have midwest ties, as long as you wouldnt living in the midwest long term.

Good luck on the LSAT!


Yeah I agree, im probably doomed to stay in mn but i guess all my friends and family are here so there is that but thank you for everyone's response.

Like I said I will come back with my score

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Clearly » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:01 pm

zombie associate wrote:
azditamo wrote:In order to get into a law school that is good without having to pay sticker. In other words if one of your scores is low does that condemn you to a low tier school and less of a chance of a scholarship or can you offset that by either having a higher GPA with a low lsat. let say you have a gpa thats like 2.1-2.9 could you combat that with a 170 lsat or on the other case a 3. 8 with like 140-150.


no it does not condemn you. however, be aware that:

1. you need to do well on the lsat first. i've noticed that lots of people on this forum like to ask hypos, like "if i scored a 170+.." stop asking hypos and focus instead on studying.

2. even if your practice scores are in the 170s, you can still score in the 160s. this happens more often than you might think.

3. even if you score in the 170s, and you get into some local school on a full scholly, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in law school. doesn't make it impossible, but there are probably personality factors that led you to getting low grades in the first place that haven't changed. this is excacerbated by the fact that you may even develop overconfidence going in to 1L.

4. even if you get into a top school, you will be surrounded by 3.5+/170+ students. no matter what you think about your abilities, it will be tough to compete with them.

i'm not saying you can't do it; i myself was in your situation years ago. i guess the reaosn why i post this is because back then i didn't realize that getting into a good school is only the beginning.

There is very little correlation between undergrad gpa and law school gpa...

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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Lexaholik » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:06 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
zombie associate wrote:
azditamo wrote:In order to get into a law school that is good without having to pay sticker. In other words if one of your scores is low does that condemn you to a low tier school and less of a chance of a scholarship or can you offset that by either having a higher GPA with a low lsat. let say you have a gpa thats like 2.1-2.9 could you combat that with a 170 lsat or on the other case a 3. 8 with like 140-150.


no it does not condemn you. however, be aware that:

1. you need to do well on the lsat first. i've noticed that lots of people on this forum like to ask hypos, like "if i scored a 170+.." stop asking hypos and focus instead on studying.

2. even if your practice scores are in the 170s, you can still score in the 160s. this happens more often than you might think.

3. even if you score in the 170s, and you get into some local school on a full scholly, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in law school. doesn't make it impossible, but there are probably personality factors that led you to getting low grades in the first place that haven't changed. this is excacerbated by the fact that you may even develop overconfidence going in to 1L.

4. even if you get into a top school, you will be surrounded by 3.5+/170+ students. no matter what you think about your abilities, it will be tough to compete with them.

i'm not saying you can't do it; i myself was in your situation years ago. i guess the reaosn why i post this is because back then i didn't realize that getting into a good school is only the beginning.

There is very little correlation between undergrad gpa and law school gpa...


yes that is true in general but what happens when you control for the LSAT? in law school everyone's in a narrow band of LSATs. i'm not aware of any empirical study that says there's little correlation in that situation but i could be wrong. anecdotally, the low gpa folks generally had a lot more trouble than the high gpa folks.

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Clearly
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Re: GPA / "lsat score split

Postby Clearly » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:30 am

zombie associate wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:
zombie associate wrote:
azditamo wrote:In order to get into a law school that is good without having to pay sticker. In other words if one of your scores is low does that condemn you to a low tier school and less of a chance of a scholarship or can you offset that by either having a higher GPA with a low lsat. let say you have a gpa thats like 2.1-2.9 could you combat that with a 170 lsat or on the other case a 3. 8 with like 140-150.


no it does not condemn you. however, be aware that:

1. you need to do well on the lsat first. i've noticed that lots of people on this forum like to ask hypos, like "if i scored a 170+.." stop asking hypos and focus instead on studying.

2. even if your practice scores are in the 170s, you can still score in the 160s. this happens more often than you might think.

3. even if you score in the 170s, and you get into some local school on a full scholly, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in law school. doesn't make it impossible, but there are probably personality factors that led you to getting low grades in the first place that haven't changed. this is excacerbated by the fact that you may even develop overconfidence going in to 1L.

4. even if you get into a top school, you will be surrounded by 3.5+/170+ students. no matter what you think about your abilities, it will be tough to compete with them.

i'm not saying you can't do it; i myself was in your situation years ago. i guess the reaosn why i post this is because back then i didn't realize that getting into a good school is only the beginning.

There is very little correlation between undergrad gpa and law school gpa...


yes that is true in general but what happens when you control for the LSAT? in law school everyone's in a narrow band of LSATs. i'm not aware of any empirical study that says there's little correlation in that situation but i could be wrong. anecdotally, the low gpa folks generally had a lot more trouble than the high gpa folks.

If you acknowledge that LSAT is more predictive than GPA (which is proven), and you speculate that LSATs in any given school are in a narrow band (which isn't necessarily true btw), and you consider that students in a given school (and supposedly within a score band) compete with each other for grades, and the LSAT is still proven to be more closely correlated to those grades, than that speaks even stronger as to why the LSAT is more predictive than GPA. It doesn't matter what is controlled and what isn't...In each school everyone has a GPA and an LSAT, and everyone competes for grades. The data show that LSAT is simply better correlated, and thus a better indicator of success.. Its worth mentioning that factoring both in is better correlated (naturally).

I guess I just find "Even with a 170+, your low GPA suggests that you'll have a hard time getting a good GPA in a local (not top) law school" misguided.




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