Just started looking

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Magical Trevor
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Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:29 pm

I'm an infantryman in the Army, currently active duty and ETSing in April of 2014. I'm looking at options for afterwards, and have started looking more seriously at law school. I have a GPA of 3.1 (yeah, I changed majors from engineering too late), and am looking at LSAT in the 165-170 range based on current practice tests with the first real test to come this June.

My significant other is going to school in Portland so I'm specifically looking at Lewis and Clark.

How good to my chances look? Any bits of specific advice beyond the standard apply early?

Thanks in advance.

qwertyboard
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Re: Just started looking

Postby qwertyboard » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:37 am

People here will probably tell you that you need to come back with a real LSAT score and that even then you can find the information you seek in the Law School by the Numbers website.

With 165 LSAT and 3.1 GPA I would say you are in at Lewis and Clark, but why would you want to settle with a school that only provides a poor chance of employment after graduation?

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=lewisandclark

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:51 am

I appreciate the answer. The LSAT score is based on a couple of quick practice tests with no studying as I haven't yet decided to spend money on a prep course and I've been out of academic environments for years due to the Army, so I anticipate no issues raising it and I agree I need a real score.

As for Lewis and Clark, it's largely a function of the significant other and location. From what I understand, if I'm not going to get into a T14 school the next focus is on going to school where you plan to practice.

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cahwc12
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Re: Just started looking

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:36 am

skzen75 wrote:I'm an infantryman in the Army, currently active duty and ETSing in April of 2014. I'm looking at options for afterwards, and have started looking more seriously at law school. I have a GPA of 3.1 (yeah, I changed majors from engineering too late), and am looking at LSAT in the 165-170 range based on current practice tests with the first real test to come this June.

My significant other is going to school in Portland so I'm specifically looking at Lewis and Clark.

How good to my chances look? Any bits of specific advice beyond the standard apply early?

Thanks in advance.


That's not an excuse for a poor GPA. If anything, that should give you pause about going to law school. Most engineering majors require a lot of work and effort. If you weren't willing to put it in then, what makes you think you'll be willing to put that amount of work into law school classes whose grades you have much less influence on?

As for Lewis and Clark, if you're concerned about the possibility of being a lawyer, your best bet would be to break it off or do a long-distance with your significant other. You make no mention of any previous ties there, and it sounds like you're only going there because she is. Lewis & Clark is an objectively terrible law school, and while you're looking at something close to sticker wherever you go, a 168-170 would open up the possibility of much better law schools.

One very important question is: have you put enough time in to get your tuition reimbursed by the Army? If so, it would be criminal to go to a school like that.

And if you ask me, your significant other is not a keeper if she decided your plans for the future without considering you. Oregon has no good law schools, and the rest of the Northwest is in a similar boat. Is she absolutely committed to school in Oregon? If she isn't, then make plans to go somewhere else (together), and if she is, then tell her to choose between you or some school in Oregon.

It's unfair to you to waste three years of your life and squander your future potential as a lawyer by attending a school in that state, unless you are well-connected.

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:13 am

Thank you for the input.

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sinfiery
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Re: Just started looking

Postby sinfiery » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:05 pm

If you got a 165-170 without much studying, put in a solid 3 months and I bet you break 172.



So basically you should...

















retake and ED UVA

BigZuck
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Re: Just started looking

Postby BigZuck » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:21 pm

My other would have to be pretty darn significant before I went to a law school like that because of them. I would be very careful if I were you but of course only you can decide whether he/she is worth it.

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cahwc12
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Re: Just started looking

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:17 am

Wormfather wrote:You make it sound like anyone who could be a good lawyer or good in LS could be a good engineering major. As for your comments about his SO, where the hell do you get off making those judgments? Especially in light of the fact that you just told him to make decisions about his future based not on where she is but where he wants to go?

Dude, maybe your heart is in the right place, but you are constantly coming off like a jack-ass.


His 3.1 isn't from an engineering major, it's after switching from engineering and completing a different major he feels was much easier, which tells me he was probably a C student. The fact that he didn't specify the type of engineering tells me it was probably mostly pre-engineering coursework, which tells me it was largely just basic math classes (calc, ODEs, etc) and at most a couple introductory classes on circuits or materials etc. These classes aren't hard, but instead weed out those who aren't willing to put the work in (think orgo for premed). Succeeding in these courses is much more about the time you put into them rather than requiring any special kind of predisposed intellect.

I also didn't make that last claim. I said he should plan together with his SO to attend somewhere they both can have a fighting chance to realize their goals. That he intends to spend three years of law school in Oregon because his SO is in school there tells me she either hasn't started yet (meaning he intended to say "is going to go") or she just started, meaning she decided to do this while or just before law school was on his radar. If she made that decision before he thought about law school, then he needs to either wait for her to finish, or look into her transferring to a mutually agreeable area so he can go to a good law school. If she made it after, which seems more likely but may well not be the case, then she didn't give his goal to become a lawyer much consideration and thus isn't a keeper.

My apologies though to OP if it came off as anything more than just being straightforward over the internet. Anonymous postings on a message board aren't usually conducive to anything other than candor.

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:33 pm

cahwc12 wrote:My apologies though to OP if it came off as anything more than just being straightforward over the internet. Anonymous postings on a message board aren't usually conducive to anything other than candor.


Quite frankly, I posted specifically looking for candor. I'm only now considering law school and feel like it's important to get plenty of input. Oddly, anonymous posting is also conducive to making assumptions.

His 3.1 isn't from an engineering major, it's after switching from engineering and completing a different major he feels was much easier, which tells me he was probably a C student. The fact that he didn't specify the type of engineering tells me it was probably mostly pre-engineering coursework, which tells me it was largely just basic math classes (calc, ODEs, etc) and at most a couple introductory classes on circuits or materials etc. These classes aren't hard, but instead weed out those who aren't willing to put the work in (think orgo for premed). Succeeding in these courses is much more about the time you put into them rather than requiring any special kind of predisposed intellect.


The 3.1 is entirely from engineering courses where I certainly got a few Cs but more As and many Bs. I didn't specify engineering because I didn't consider it relevant, but it was bioengineering.

I'm currently completing a criminal justice major that is criminally easy with a 4.0 so by the time I apply my GPA will be higher than the 3.1.

The SO is very significant and will be part of my future without question. She's on the path to becoming a nurse anesthetist which has a substantially better employment outlook than the vast majority of, if not all, law schools as they can earn similar pay while working only a few days a month. Her school is more important than my law school, and if either Lewis and Clark or possibly University of Washington, which I might be able to attend as a state resident, aren't worth applying to then I won't be going to law school.

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Cobretti
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Cobretti » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:09 pm

skzen75 wrote:I appreciate the answer. The LSAT score is based on a couple of quick practice tests with no studying as I haven't yet decided to spend money on a prep course and I've been out of academic environments for years due to the Army, so I anticipate no issues raising it and I agree I need a real score.

As for Lewis and Clark, it's largely a function of the significant other and location. From what I understand, if I'm not going to get into a T14 school the next focus is on going to school where you plan to practice.

I'm a 3.0/173 from the air force and I'm in at NU so far this cycle. If you can get 170+ you have a legit shot at T14s. SO is certainly something to think about, but don't get complacent with your GI Bill and convince yourself its OK to go to a lesser school because you won't have debt, that's throwing away a golden ticket to a free T14 degree.

Of course you're also right about going to school where you want to practice, but if you have ties to Portland already you likely wouldn't have a problem going back there. No more trouble than you would finding a job from L&C anyway.

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:20 pm

mrizza wrote:
skzen75 wrote:I appreciate the answer. The LSAT score is based on a couple of quick practice tests with no studying as I haven't yet decided to spend money on a prep course and I've been out of academic environments for years due to the Army, so I anticipate no issues raising it and I agree I need a real score.

As for Lewis and Clark, it's largely a function of the significant other and location. From what I understand, if I'm not going to get into a T14 school the next focus is on going to school where you plan to practice.

I'm a 3.0/173 from the air force and I'm in at NU so far this cycle. If you can get 170+ you have a legit shot at T14s. SO is certainly something to think about, but don't get complacent with your GI Bill and convince yourself its OK to go to a lesser school because you won't have debt, that's throwing away a golden ticket to a free T14 degree.

Of course you're also right about going to school where you want to practice, but if you have ties to Portland already you likely wouldn't have a problem going back there. No more trouble than you would finding a job from L&C anyway.


That's really good to know.

Which T14s are close to GI bill payout? I can pull off Washington residency but unless they'll let home of record determine residency I'm out of state automatically almost everywhere else.

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Cobretti
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Cobretti » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:30 pm

skzen75 wrote:
mrizza wrote:
skzen75 wrote:I appreciate the answer. The LSAT score is based on a couple of quick practice tests with no studying as I haven't yet decided to spend money on a prep course and I've been out of academic environments for years due to the Army, so I anticipate no issues raising it and I agree I need a real score.

As for Lewis and Clark, it's largely a function of the significant other and location. From what I understand, if I'm not going to get into a T14 school the next focus is on going to school where you plan to practice.

I'm a 3.0/173 from the air force and I'm in at NU so far this cycle. If you can get 170+ you have a legit shot at T14s. SO is certainly something to think about, but don't get complacent with your GI Bill and convince yourself its OK to go to a lesser school because you won't have debt, that's throwing away a golden ticket to a free T14 degree.

Of course you're also right about going to school where you want to practice, but if you have ties to Portland already you likely wouldn't have a problem going back there. No more trouble than you would finding a job from L&C anyway.


That's really good to know.

Which T14s are close to GI bill payout? I can pull off Washington residency but unless they'll let home of record determine residency I'm out of state automatically almost everywhere else.

Well I will only have 4 months of eligibility for LS so I haven't done that much research, but I know NU is a yellow ribbon participant. UVA has a reputation for being very military friendly (WL'd me, but I applied RD), so they probably do as well. I'm not sure but I'd think most of the T14s would since they can afford it. A great place to ask would be the veterans thread

Edit: to give an idea NU's works out to 17,500 in state GI Bill max, then 15,000 from the school and 15,000 matched by the VA, so 47,500/year out of total tuition of 53k. so pretty close to full ride, plus your housing allowance which is obviously worth significantly more than that 5.5k gap. (http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/tuitionaid/grants/yellowribbon.html)

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Magical Trevor » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:16 pm

I didn't think I had a chance at t14 so I didn't look. I guess it's time for more research.

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romothesavior
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Re: Just started looking

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:53 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
skzen75 wrote:I'm an infantryman in the Army, currently active duty and ETSing in April of 2014. I'm looking at options for afterwards, and have started looking more seriously at law school. I have a GPA of 3.1 (yeah, I changed majors from engineering too late), and am looking at LSAT in the 165-170 range based on current practice tests with the first real test to come this June.

That's not an excuse for a poor GPA. If anything, that should give you pause about going to law school. Most engineering majors require a lot of work and effort. If you weren't willing to put it in then, what makes you think you'll be willing to put that amount of work into law school classes whose grades you have much less influence on?

This really isn't fair at all. The dude was an engineering major, which is pretty different from other majors in terms of the curve/grading.

Also, his army experience is likely to give him at least some boost. It's one of the few softs that actually matters.

OP, you do have a shot at the T14 is you can score high enough.

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Cobretti
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Re: Just started looking

Postby Cobretti » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
skzen75 wrote:I'm an infantryman in the Army, currently active duty and ETSing in April of 2014. I'm looking at options for afterwards, and have started looking more seriously at law school. I have a GPA of 3.1 (yeah, I changed majors from engineering too late), and am looking at LSAT in the 165-170 range based on current practice tests with the first real test to come this June.

That's not an excuse for a poor GPA. If anything, that should give you pause about going to law school. Most engineering majors require a lot of work and effort. If you weren't willing to put it in then, what makes you think you'll be willing to put that amount of work into law school classes whose grades you have much less influence on?

This really isn't fair at all. The dude was an engineering major, which is pretty different from other majors in terms of the curve/grading.

Also, his army experience is likely to give him at least some boost. It's one of the few softs that actually matters.

OP, you do have a shot at the T14 is you can score high enough.

looks like cahwc was being a dick

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cahwc12
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Re: Just started looking

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:06 am

skzen75 wrote:I have a GPA of 3.1 (yeah, I changed majors from engineering too late)


skzen75 wrote:I'm currently completing a criminal justice major that is criminally easy with a 4.0 so by the time I apply my GPA will be higher than the 3.1.


Leaving out key information (like, you haven't graduated yet and are currently pulling a 4.0 in all your classes) is going to get you advice that isn't relevant. Based on your elaboration about your SO, it is still unclear if she is currently in school, about to start school, etc. If it is at all feasible, you need to sit down and explain to her that if she wants to help you become a lawyer, she needs to consider transferring to another part of the country to make that happen. Your GI bill gives you an amazing advantage in that you can discount COA almost entirely, and that means that simply getting into the best school you can is the single most important factor in your law school decision. Even if she is currently enrolled in a program, she needs to look into the possibility of transferring so that you attend the best law school you get into (or at least one of them).

The next logical questions are:

1) How many credits have you taken and what is your current UGPA?

2) What do you project your final UGPA as?

3) Is your SO currently enrolled? Will she begin in the fall? If she has started, how likely is it that she can transfer?

romothesavior wrote:This really isn't fair at all. The dude was an engineering major, which is pretty different from other majors in terms of the curve/grading.

Also, his army experience is likely to give him at least some boost. It's one of the few softs that actually matters.

OP, you do have a shot at the T14 is you can score high enough.


I can only speak from my own personal experience taking courses across myriad departments at public state U, but I've not found any difference in curves or grading. The only noticeable difference in grading I found was in an upper level creative writing elective I almost took, and during the first class, the instructor said that only five people could make A's due to "rampant grade inflation endemic in the department." That said, my previous argument is a non sequitur because OP's GPA is not final, and the 3.1 was entirely from engineering, which (while bad for law school) isn't that shabby, and doesn't surprise me that he's able to now pull a 4.0 in a liberal arts major. At minimum, it's wholly different from something like a 2.4 in mostly pre-engineering courses with liberal arts coursework as a cushion (which is what the initial post sounded like to me).

OP, if you're able to lift that up to a 3.3 or 3.4 by graduation (depending how many credits you have remaining), I see no reason why mid T14 would be out of your reach--and with the GI bill backing you, I'll repeat for emphasis:

You really, really, really need to sit down with your SO and talk to her about the logistics of moving to one of NYC, Philadelphia, Ann Arbor, Charlottesville, Raleigh-Durham, East Chicago, or Ithaca if you score as well as you intend on the June LSAT.




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