Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

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prabsnation
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Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:54 pm

Basically, I was in an accelerated premed-med program and was overwhelmed. After 2.5 years, I dropped out as I was in a non-degree program and had learned to play poker well enough to make a living. I moved out to Vegas and spent the next 6 years playing live and online full time before deciding to go back to school. I decided to do the whole 4 years over again. I went to a cc in Vegas for 1.5 years then transferred to Pitt where I'm about to graduate. My pitt gpa is a 3.25, but my lsac gpa is a 2.59 because I got a 0 my last semester at PSU. I scored a 162 on my lsat with minimal preparation, but feel if I applied myself I could reach 170ish, considering I missed almost half on the logic games.

Should I try to get in somewhere or take a year off and try to wax my lsats? I have experience scoring well on standardized tests fwiw. RIght now I'd love to get into PItt, but that seems like wishful thinking. Duquesne would be fine as I'm trying to live in Western PA, and I have a legacy connection at Villanova where I might be able to sneak in as well.

General thoughts on my uncertain situation?

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cahwc12
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:59 pm

Your GPA is too low and you are not going very very unlikely to gain admission to any law school worth attending at the price they are willing to admit you for. Because your GPA is just dead weight, you would have to find a school looking to improve or maintain its median LSAT at the expense of its GPA, and you won't really know in advance, if they even exist.

Think of it as a good omen that you can't enjoy $250,000 in non-dischargeable debt and be unemployed like half the people going to law school.

edit: actually according to thisa school like Alabama might not bite and be worth attending if you are from the south and want to work in Alabama.

If that's not applicable you're pretty much SOL, and that's a shame because there are a lot of great people who grew up too late in college and have terrible GPAs that aren't indicative of their future abilities. Unfortunately for you(us? 3.4 here), there is no sympathy in the current law school admissions system.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:20 pm

What if the actual cost is not a factor? Like, I would be willing to gamble on my ability to succeed in law school and as a lawyer down the road. I would be willing to take a year off to retake my lsat and intern at a local law firm to help scholarship chances if it was a significant change. Or are you saying that I shouldn't bother with law even if I managed a 170 on my next lsat (if scholarship money mattered of course)?

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cahwc12
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:28 pm

prabsnation wrote:What if the actual cost is not a factor? Like, I would be willing to gamble on my ability to succeed in law school and as a lawyer down the road. I would be willing to take a year off to retake my lsat and intern at a local law firm to help scholarship chances if it was a significant change. Or are you saying that I shouldn't bother with law even if I managed a 170 on my next lsat (if scholarship money mattered of course)?


Then I would recommend you to read this article that a fellow TLSer posted in another thread recently. I realize you're not in college anymore, but understand that just about everyone entering law school feels they will be among the lucky 50%. Everyone is just as driven as you, and just about everyone is taking on sizable debt to enter in the sweepstakes. Interning at a law firm might give you a better idea how being a lawyer works (and it might not), but it won't do anything to your scholarship chances, which are driven almost (x>.99) exclusively by GPA/LSAT.

It's still a free country and you're welcome to bet your possible future earnings on your chance at succeeding, but know that many people with much better numbers than you are walking, even sprinting, away from law school. They are doing this because half of the graduates at most schools don't have a job, and most of the ones that do get jobs don't become career lawyers--and of the remaining ones, most of them are working long hours in jobs they settled for to pay down the incredible debt loads.

I think if you really are going to bet on yourself, try to secure a line of credit for as much as you can, and take that money to Vegas. You probably have better odds of sustaining yourself long-term than you do at becoming a successful lawyer. Additionally, you won't have to spend three years of your life (only a night, or a week or whatever), AND if you lose at craps or poker you can just declare bankruptcy and only have it affect you for the next 7 years. If you get a JD, the debt (and possibly the degree as well) will never stop haunting you.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:37 pm

I hear what you're saying. It comes down to whether I can hack it as the top 10% of whatever class I get into. Scholarship money or not though, I don't see why anyone is going to law school if what you're saying is completely true. There has to be a whole group of kids who are getting into law school and not trying at all who make up the bottom 20% of the class. Just playing devil's advocate here - I find it somewhat hard to believe that everyone is grinding really hard and all these great lawyers who are hard workers can't find someone willing to put them to work.

As far as going back to poker...nah, it'll always be side income but I'm done with that full time.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby WokeUpInACar » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:50 pm

Going to one of those schools and attempting to become a successful attorney is kinda like trying to make a living at live poker tournaments. Sure some people can do it, and those who work hard have an advantage, but ultimately very few people are able to be successful doing it in the long term. Law school grading doesn't have quite as much variance as poker tournaments, but it isn't that far off. This board is littered with stories of smart, motivated, and hard-working people who ended up below median at lower ranked law schools. My advice would be to hold off graduation as long as possible while taking the easiest classes possible to pad your GPA, and at the same time study your ass off for the LSAT.

There are certain schools that heavily favor the LSAT, and don't mind very low GPAs if you have a high LSAT which are worth going to, such as WUSTL, U Minnesota, and Indiana U. I would shoot for these schools which you would probably get into with a 168+ LSAT. This is all if you are 100% set on law school of course.

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cahwc12
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:57 pm

prabsnation wrote:I decided to do the whole 4 years over again. I went to a cc in Vegas for 1.5 years then transferred to Pitt where I'm about to graduate.


I completely missed this part. A lot of schools have something called "retroactive withdrawal." Usually it's only applicable for up to a year or so after the date, but because the whole point of retroactive withdrawal is to deal with exceptional circumstances, you should reach out to them and see if there is some way to get those F's turned into W's.

I don't know what circumstances surrounded your F's, but it may be possible to get them removed.

As for taking classes to pad your GPA, I wouldn't bother with it because you will spend a lot of time and money and your GPA isn't going to come up enough. I suppose if you absolutely could pull off a miracle, getting your GPA up to around a 2.7-8, crushing the LSAT (173+) and sending a very early app to Northwestern might get you in. You'd still be mired in a mountain of debt, but at least you would have a fighting chance to dig yourself out.

prabsnation wrote:I hear what you're saying. It comes down to whether I can hack it as the top 10% of whatever class I get into. Scholarship money or not though, I don't see why anyone is going to law school if what you're saying is completely true. There has to be a whole group of kids who are getting into law school and not trying at all who make up the bottom 20% of the class. Just playing devil's advocate here - I find it somewhat hard to believe that everyone is grinding really hard and all these great lawyers who are hard workers can't find someone willing to put them to work.

As far as going back to poker...nah, it'll always be side income but I'm done with that full time.


As for this, it's this kind of jaded optimism that most law school hopefuls fall victim to. It really is like that, and now you are starting to get why the application numbers are dropping so hard. This wasn't even an issue two years ago because translucent employment data wasn't available until just last year. March will mark the second year of good employment data, and expect the decline in law school apps to continue even more as it becomes common knowledge that law school is generally a bad investment for almost everyone.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:29 pm

I guess my next question is, why are you still applying to law school? That's a tough pill for me to swallow and I'll definitely have to do some thinking wrt to my future.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby WokeUpInACar » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:35 pm

prabsnation wrote:I guess my next question is, why are you still applying to law school? That's a tough pill for me to swallow and I'll definitely have to do some thinking wrt to my future.

For me, I wouldn't be attending if I couldn't go to a school with decent employment prospects for much less than sticker price. Studying like crazy for the LSAT and getting a good score has made that possible for me despite a shitty GPA.

09042014
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:36 pm

Why do you think you'd be great at law school when you have a shitty GPA at Pitt (not even counting the F's).

PRgradBYU
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:55 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why do you think you'd be great at law school when you have a shitty GPA at Pitt (not even counting the F's).


I always wonder this when I see applicants with sub-3 GPAs (unless there's a major medical emergency or something similar).

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cahwc12
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:57 pm

prabsnation wrote:I guess my next question is, why are you still applying to law school? That's a tough pill for me to swallow and I'll definitely have to do some thinking wrt to my future.


I've been on this board since 2005 and I'm still a 0L.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:10 am

As an update, i found out today i was accepted at pitt. Was on vacation so havent gotten back to check the official stuff wrt to scholarship so that obv will change things. Regardless i feel relieved and excited. As far as why id be good at law school, i guess only i know myself, and for me, the stakes would be much higher.

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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:26 am

I have my doubts about your success as a poker player if you think that spending 200k+ on bad law schools is a acceptable gamble to take.

Your numbers as is leave you, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, "disqualified" from attending law school. Your only real choice of action is to get a really high score (168+) and then roll the dice by paying sticker at whatever top 20 school accepts you. Still too risky for me but if you really want to be a lawyer then that's your only real course of action. If no school in that range accepts you and you can't get a full ride to a decent regional that places where you have ties (doubtful with that gpa) then you just don't go to law school.

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Yukos
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby Yukos » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:29 pm

prabsnation wrote:As an update, i found out today i was accepted at pitt. Was on vacation so havent gotten back to check the official stuff wrt to scholarship so that obv will change things. Regardless i feel relieved and excited. As far as why id be good at law school, i guess only i know myself, and for me, the stakes would be much higher.


Pitt gives you literally a coin-flip's chance of getting a job as a lawyer -- which isn't to say you'll get a job that will allow you to pay off your debt. They're also notoriously stingy and you have a sub-3.0 GPA, so I would count on exactly $0 in scholarship aid. If spending over $160k for a 50% chance of a job that will probably pay too little to properly service your debt (Pitt refuses to release salary information, so I'm guessing recent graduates don't make much, like <$40k) sounds like a good idea, go crazy.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:01 pm

Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.

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EvilClinton
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby EvilClinton » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:05 pm

prabsnation wrote:Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.

Wow. You are very sure of yourself for someone who has no idea what the fuck they have gotten themselves into.

You are not a special snowflake. No one will care about your hustle. You have no legal or professional experience and you have a pretty big gap on your resume.

Pitt also has terrible employment prospects:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=pitt&show=chars

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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:11 pm

prabsnation wrote:Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.


Oh, you're just trolling. I see. Cool.

flame.gif

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby WokeUpInACar » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:13 pm

BigZuck wrote:
prabsnation wrote:Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.


Oh, you're just trolling. I see. Cool.

flame.gif

I can say with quite a bit of confidence that he is not trolling lol

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cahwc12
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby cahwc12 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:24 pm

prabsnation wrote:Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.


1) People with above average people skills don't have to tell everyone they have above average people skills.

2) Be sure to mention your 1600 SAT in your law school apps. It looks much better than a 180 LSAT. (Why did you go to Pitt with a 1600 anyway and flunk out?)

3) Make absolutely certain you mention in your PS about how your experience in hustling is going to prepare you for the legal market. You'll have to be quite a hustler to get a job out of Pitt.

4) By far the most important thing to list on your app is that your parents will be paying 100% of your COA. Nothing says "I'm ready for the real world" like a guy who is reckless with money.

5) Fuck you for your first five posts seeming to be legitimately asking for advice.

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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby PRgradBYU » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:01 pm

EvilClinton wrote:
prabsnation wrote:Haha show some optimism for once big guy. Ill be ok, im going to pitt. My people skills are way better than many of the top young bucks coming out and people will want to work with me. Its not like im a chump intellect wise, i got a perfect sat score which is nothing to sneeze at. I also have insight in the art of making money, and lawyerring is another form of hustling. I succeeded wildly in a zero sum game for 6 years as my sole form of income. Additionally, and i realize i should have just posted this in the beginning but i wanted to see general responses, i will be leaving law school debt free, so the gamble is less "life" risky than it would seem.

Wow. You are very sure of yourself for someone who has no idea what the fuck they have gotten themselves into.

You are not a special snowflake. No one will care about your hustle. You have no legal or professional experience and you have a pretty big gap on your resume.

Pitt also has terrible employment prospects:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=pitt&show=chars


"Ill be ok, im going to pitt." -prabsnation

:lol:

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Yukos
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby Yukos » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:35 pm

All that intelligence and "people skills" and the best you could do is a sub-3.0 GPA and an acceptance to Pitt Law? Talk about unrealized potential...

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star fox
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby star fox » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:54 am

You could probably change your F's to W's if you had a 0.00 semester since you did essentially withdraw.. You barely studied for the LSAT and still managed a 162. So instead of doing these things and giving yourself much better odds at becoming a successful lawyer you just decide to be happy with going to Pitt.

My guess is three years from now you'll look back and regret your awful decision.

prabsnation
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby prabsnation » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:02 am

I'm going to make the gamble. I appreciate you guys giving me further clarity on what I'm getting myself into. Things changed for me when I got into Pitt - I really want to work in the Pittsburgh area (have strong ties to my hometown which is also in western PA). I thought that getting into Pitt law was a pipedream with my GPA and was seeking further advice on how to proceed if/when I was denied, considering I feel I have some room to improve on my LSAT. I'm past the regret stages of not doing things right - it has not been easy to transition back into the academic world and it would be impossible for me to explain all my positive qualities and my flaws, both of which I'm aware. The grades reset in law school and I'm going to continue combing through these forums so I can try to be prepared to score well.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Low LSAC gpa due to first college experience, decent lsat

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:12 am

prabsnation wrote:I scored a 162 on my lsat with minimal preparation, but feel if I applied myself I could reach 170ish, considering I missed almost half on the logic games.


We're twins. Same score, and I too, missed almost half the games on my first official LSAT.

Dude, I'm studying for the June LSAT. You should as well. I've picked up the Manhattan LSAT prep book for the LGs and it's pretty amazing. I've even been getting -0s on some PTs for the logic games. I've been PTing at the high 160s to low 170s. You yourself a huge favor and retake. You'll get into Pitt with $$$ next year at the very least.

Btw, I got into a top 25 with $ and a school in my home market with $$$. It's still not worth it for me. Don't make this gamble.

You have a lot of untapped LSAT potential. Don't waste it by going this year.

If you're persistent on going, put down a deposit at Pitt and then register for the June LSAT. If you get a 170, then fuck this cycle and apply next cycle. If you bomb the June LSAT, then go to Pitt. No harm no foul. You have nothing to lose by retaking.

Good luck.




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