3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

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mawata
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3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:23 pm

So I recognize normally these numbers probably wouldn't get me anywhere, but I'm wondering if anyone has advice for THIS specific cycle. I know its bad to rely on the law school applications dropping but I feel like it may help a little bit? I'm in undergrad and have some pretty good softs including a leadership position, am a pretty good writer, and have an established goal in going to law school that I indicated in my application. My goal is to work in entertainment law and I have a lot of softs in that field. Additionally, I had some personal trouble during the summer I was supposed to be studying during and therefore did most of my studying a month and a half before the test. I talked about said personal trouble as part of my personal statement.

Also before anyone shouts "retake," I did because I preemptively agreed with you, ended up doing worse because I froze on a section and had to guess for a lot of it. I took the chance that it may have been the experimental. Which it wasn't. But I only dropped a little bit, which probably indicates had I not frozen my score would have been better.

Anyways, I have been accepted to Seattle, Catholic, UNH and St. John's, deferred at Rutgers Newark and waitlisted at American. I'm waiting to hear from San Diego, Loyola Law School, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Fordham, UC Hastings and Pepperdine. Of the schools I've been accepted to I would choose to go to St. John's, as they are offering me money and I want to be in New York, but Cardozo is my top choice. My plan B is to apply for an internship program and study some more and retake, but I'd rather accept St. John's offer to be honest than take time off.

Thoughts?

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:25 pm

Also I am a non-URm female. (Sorry, forgot to add)

PRgradBYU
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:03 am


nebula666
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby nebula666 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:28 am

PRgradBYU wrote:http://myLSN.info/ozq6nn


She said NON Urm

http://myLSN.info/uuskvv

Retake. You aren't getting Cardozo and you should not pay sticker if you did get in.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:20 pm

Even if you got in, you'd be paying sticker, which is a career and financial death wish. Cardozo is a pretty mediocre school with poor job placement. Only 50% of their students get full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs, and only about 12% are landing big firm jobs. How are you going to pay back over a quarter million dollars in non-dischargeable debt? You would be destroying your financial future. The other schools you have gotten into are similarly terrible (check out the data on LST, it's really bad).

Any school that would accept a 3.56/154 is not worth going to unless it is free. You need to retake or choose a different career.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:50 pm

What about this.

Lets say I DID get into Cardozo and of course I'd be paying the full amount. Would I be able to ask to do the May start in 2014 as opposed to the fall, work until then to raise up money, retake the LSATs, and if I did substantially better send them the score and ask for some money? Or is that not even a thing people can do haha.

I appreciate the advice by the way.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:52 pm

Also I was hesitant to retake a third time since if I didn't do better then I'd be screwed for 2 years, so I'd wanna make sure I'm super ready, which means taking time off. and as dumb as this sounds my parents will probably give me a lot of shit if I do, since in their eyes I got into ranked schools with money offers.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:10 pm

mawata wrote:Also I was hesitant to retake a third time since if I didn't do better then I'd be screwed for 2 years, so I'd wanna make sure I'm super ready, which means taking time off. and as dumb as this sounds my parents will probably give me a lot of shit if I do, since in their eyes I got into ranked schools with money offers.

I understand that sentiment, but unless your parents are willing to give you a quarter of a million dollars to repay your loans if (more realistically when) you strike out from reputable jobs, then you need to do what is best for you. This is your career, your future, and your financial well-being. We are talking about unbelievably large sums of money for a pretty piss poor investment. You'll be lucky to land a legal job at all from Cardozo or SJU, and even if you do, it's unlikely to be the type of job you need to service that huge loan repayment you'll have.

Hopefully you can explain all of this to your parents and convince them that these schools would be serious mistakes for you in the long-term (send them the Law School Transparency data, or even information from TLS), but even if you can't explain it to them, you need to do what is best for you. And what is best for you is to take some time off, get a job doing whatever you can find, and study study study for the LSAT.

I'm curious, OP... where are you from? What do you want to do with your degree?

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:23 pm

I'm from the suburbs of Washington, DC, which is a pretty privileged area I admit. The area is a big bubble in regards to the recession. I want to work either in the licensing of foreign media/entertainment or work for a video game company or possibly disney in the legal sector. Something that has to do with entertainment, essentially. St. Johns has an entertainment society that does a lot of networking with externship placement, which is why I was considering it.

I'm in the middle of negotiating a bigger offer from st. johns. I think it'll be successful since I have an offer from a similarly ranked school. it won't be a full ride, but it'll amount to 30,000 in total if I can keep it all 3 years. Right now I have 15,000 in total. And if I get into Cardozo, I was hoping to use that to negotiate maybe a little bit of money from them as well.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:42 pm

The odds of you doing high-end, prestigious entertainment law from any of these schools is pretty close to zero. You're talking about employers that hire from elite schools, and generally after working in a big law firm for a few years. As it stands, you're thinking of gambling $200,000+ on a very small shot at doing what you want, and maybe a 50/50 shot of even getting a job as a lawyer (think insurance defense work, small shop DUI work and the like). You really need to do some more homework, because it seems that you don't really know what you're getting yourself into.

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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby cinephile » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:46 pm

mawata wrote:
Also before anyone shouts "retake," I did because I preemptively agreed with you, ended up doing worse because I froze on a section and had to guess for a lot of it. I took the chance that it may have been the experimental. Which it wasn't. But I only dropped a little bit, which probably indicates had I not frozen my score would have been better.



Sounds like you know what to do. Apply for internships and retake. Next year settle for nothing less than Fordham with scholarship.

timbs4339
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:56 pm

Retake. These schools aren't going to get you where you want to go unless where you want to go is a small firm in an outer borough or on LI doing personal injury law or a local PD/DA office.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:08 pm

Ok lets say I ignored everyone's advice and went to St. John's. What are the odds of transferring into Columbia or NYU if I do well at St. John's my first year? Obviously this isn't something I would count on, but I'm curious on its possibility. If I could pull that off that would solve the job placement thing most likely, although I'm aware I'd lose both my GPA and any scholarships. My parents would probably help pay for Columbia or the like though, or at least until I have a job that I can start paying them back with. But its probably pretty damn foolish to go in with that expectation. I've just heard Columbia takes a fair amount of transfers.

Again I appreciate the advice, its very well received.

timbs4339
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:28 pm

mawata wrote:Ok lets say I ignored everyone's advice and went to St. John's. What are the odds of transferring into Columbia or NYU if I do well at St. John's my first year? Obviously this isn't something I would count on, but I'm curious on its possibility. If I could pull that off that would solve the job placement thing most likely, although I'm aware I'd lose both my GPA and any scholarships. My parents would probably help pay for Columbia or the like though, or at least until I have a job that I can start paying them back with. But its probably pretty damn foolish to go in with that expectation. I've just heard Columbia takes a fair amount of transfers.

Again I appreciate the advice, its very well received.


This is kind of a weird question. Assuming you'll do well is the entire point. It's like asking "assuming I win the lottery, will I be able to buy a Ferrari?" You have less than a 5% chance of doing well enough to transfer to a T10. Do you like 5% odds? Don't count on it.

CLS/NYU takes transfers who would have had CLS/NYU job prospects had they stayed at their old school. That's how you are measured because hiring happens after your first year, so firms will only see your St. Johns grades and that you transferred.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:22 am

ahhh ok. That makes sense. I couldn't find much information on it. Hmm. What about the plan of deffering to the may start and retaking the lsats to try and get a scholarship form cardozo (assuming I'm accepted, which I admit isn't entirely likely but I think I have a small shot at at least the waitlist)? Do you think thats something they'd take into account after already having been accepted? I know you guys aren't super into Cardozo but I really like the school and their programs/clinics, and I'd have time to raise money as well if this plan was doable.

On the other hand, an internship or job isn't a guarantee if I take time off, so it could turn out that I'd be spending all my time trying to find something and would squander my study time and be pretty much where I am right now come next cycle. Whereas my acceptances right now are guarantees of SOMETHING.

Sorry if this message makes no sense. Its late. ._.

timbs4339
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:02 am

mawata wrote:ahhh ok. That makes sense. I couldn't find much information on it. Hmm. What about the plan of deffering to the may start and retaking the lsats to try and get a scholarship form cardozo (assuming I'm accepted, which I admit isn't entirely likely but I think I have a small shot at at least the waitlist)? Do you think thats something they'd take into account after already having been accepted? I know you guys aren't super into Cardozo but I really like the school and their programs/clinics, and I'd have time to raise money as well if this plan was doable.

On the other hand, an internship or job isn't a guarantee if I take time off, so it could turn out that I'd be spending all my time trying to find something and would squander my study time and be pretty much where I am right now come next cycle. Whereas my acceptances right now are guarantees of SOMETHING.

Sorry if this message makes no sense. Its late. ._.


Yes, you'd have to negotiate with the school and be prepared to come back a second or third time before accepting.

If you take the LSAT again and don't improve your score, law schools won't care. If you do worse, they take the higher score. They need your numbers. Applications aren't going to rebound much next year (if they don't keep going down). You'll at the very least get the same acceptances, and the upshot is way way higher.

BigZuck
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Romo, you've been harping on a lot of kids to not attend schools that give you a coin flips chance at a job, yet you go to WUSTL. Is this a "Do as I say, not as I do" situation? Because if they click on your profile and see that you go to WUSTL and then look at their employment stats and see that they're not a whole lot better than the schools they are considering then what kind of impact is that advice going to have? Honestly curious.

Is it just the matter of cost you take issue with?

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:13 pm

I went to school in the city/region I wanted to practice in with a scholarship. Had virtually no UG debt and i took on a very manageable amount of law school debt. In hindsight, I probably should have retaken one more time and maybe waited a year, and I recognize that my decision was on the riskier side of what I consider an acceptable law school investment. And even with another retake, I'm not sure i could have cracked 170, honestly.

But my situation (100k LS debt at a T20 in the city I wanted to practice in) is a wee bit different than Cardozo at sticker, thanks. So I'm not really sure what bearing this has on this conversation about OP going to Dozo at sticker.

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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:I went to school in the city/region I wanted to practice in with a scholarship. Had virtually no UG debt and i took on a very manageable amount of law school debt. In hindsight, I probably should have retaken one more time and maybe waited a year, and I recognize that my decision was on the riskier side of what I consider an acceptable law school investment. And even with another retake, I'm not sure i could have cracked 170, honestly.

But my situation (100k LS debt at a T20 in the city I wanted to practice in) is a wee bit different than Cardozo at sticker, thanks. So I'm not really sure what bearing this has on this conversation about OP going to Dozo at sticker.


I get the cost stuff but you've been harping a lot on 50/50 chances of employment. You willingly went to one of those schools. Are you saying that was a mistake? I mean, another poster wanted to do small law in Texas at a school that had a 66% employment score and you said that was not enough. Of course we need to worry about cost but there's only a handful of schools that offer better than 50/50 legal employment.

What do we do? T14 or bust? Just nobody goes to law school if you're outside of that handful of schools? I'm asking you because you're a respected poster with a billion posts who goes to law school so you obviously know a lot more than us 0Ls.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:39 pm

If this makes a difference, I will have no UG debt either, I have instate tuition and my parents are graciously paying for it, since their parents did that for them. We haven't had to take out any loans for UG either. So any debt I will have will be from law school alone.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:59 pm

mawata wrote:If this makes a difference, I will have no UG debt either, I have instate tuition and my parents are graciously paying for it, since their parents did that for them. We haven't had to take out any loans for UG either. So any debt I will have will be from law school alone.

That does change things some, but as others mentioned, you probably aren't getting in with those numbers. I also would hesitate to make your parents spend 150k on a degree that will likely put you in a 50k job, quite possibly one you won't enjoy. Retake is the best path.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:12 pm

Zuck, this is the last response I'll make to this ITT because its not the purpose of this thread, but I am not T14 or bust and never have been. Im so sick or hearing that criticism and could link you to dozens of threads where I have advised going elsewhere. I have many, many times advised people to take the money over ranking, and a persons expected indebtedness is just as big a factor as any. I think people should avoid T14s at sticker and think flagship state schools for cheap in the preferred region of practice is often the way to go. And while I love WUSTL, I've told countless people its not for them and I would never advise it at anywhere near sticker. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. My message is pretty consistent.

Also, if people have legitimately maxed out on the LSAT, I generally dont advise retaking and try to give them some viable options. But people who are too lazy to take it again can benefit from hearing that they can do better and that they're taking a huge financial gamble.

Finally, the data available to you 0Ls is also more nuanced, more thorough, and much better packaged than it was 3 or 4 years ago. While we all knew or should have known how bad it was, "JD-required full-time permanent jobs" wasn't much of a category for discussion in 2009-2010. And like most people, I've soured on law school after three years here and it has nothing to do with bitterness or anything of the sort. You just see what a questionable investment it is.

So come off it. Ad homming me is not benefiting anyone here.

mawata
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby mawata » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:45 pm

I DID retake, so I object to being lumped in with people too lazy to retake, and the only reason I didnt a third time was because I knew I couldnt make a difference with school going on between the December score release and February LSAT. If you meant to include me in that, I mean. I figured I'd give this cycle a shot and see if I get lucky. Also I'd say I could be in waitlist territory which isnt a flat out deny either. I guess I'll sit on this and once I hear back from the rest of my schools go from there. I'm keeping all the advice I've gotten in mind though as its all been very helpful. :)

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ManoftheHour
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby ManoftheHour » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:03 pm

mawata wrote:I DID retake, so I object to being lumped in with people too lazy to retake, and the only reason I didnt a third time was because I knew I couldnt make a difference with school going on between the December score release and February LSAT. If you meant to include me in that, I mean. I figured I'd give this cycle a shot and see if I get lucky. Also I'd say I could be in waitlist territory which isnt a flat out deny either. I guess I'll sit on this and once I hear back from the rest of my schools go from there. I'm keeping all the advice I've gotten in mind though as its all been very helpful. :)


You COULD pick a school that you might want to go to and retake the June LSAT. Someone told me that he got into a school that rejected him in the same cycle by destroying his June LSAT. The thing is, if you have a third retake, why not use it? Not much to lose there.

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romothesavior
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Re: 3.56/154 -- my shot at Cardozo?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:29 pm

mawata wrote:I DID retake, so I object to being lumped in with people too lazy to retake, and the only reason I didnt a third time was because I knew I couldnt make a difference with school going on between the December score release and February LSAT. If you meant to include me in that, I mean.

I wasn't referring to you in the "too lazy to retake" group, I was just responding to Zuck.

One last thing I'll say here. I said something similar to Zuck via PM but I think it bears reiterating here. Even among schools with somewhat similar "Employment Scores" on LST, there are wide variations in the types of jobs that those employed graduates are doing. I don't think you have any idea how hard it would be to get the kind of job you are looking for from the schools you have listed. These are really prestigious and competitive fields of law. If you were looking to do family law or DUI work or insurance defense in a less desirable area of the New York metro area, then I guess SJU or Dozo would probably get you there. But you want to work for Disney or a video game company as a lawyer? Uh... good luck with that.

So, despite what Zuck and others may say, I'm not biglaw or bust, I'm not T14 or bust, I'm not saying a school like Cardozo can't be a decent choice. If you said "I can go for close to free and I want to do family law and stay in the NYC metro area," then I wouldn't have much to say other than good luck. But that's not the case here, not at all, which is why I'm skeptical of your situation and think you need to reassess.

Anyways, I'll bow out now. Good luck.




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