Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

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eudaimon22
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Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby eudaimon22 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:31 pm

Alright so I have been an onlooker for a while but need to hear what some of you doomsayers and optimists have to say about my background. I am applying late in the cycle because I was sort of banking of finding some jobs in finance but have known for over a year and a half that the quant stuff isn't my thing. First things first: 3.67 GPA Economics major/Philosophy minor from a New England state-university. I spent my junior year studying Philosophy at a top 5 UK university and received an upper-second class honors in my coursework. Regarding the all-important LSAT, my practice tests have ranged from 153-158 since I started hitting the books after first semester (~Dec 20).

So those are the raw numbers, but I have been (fallaciously?) reassuring myself that my background and purpose for wanting law school is what will get these schools (BU,BC, probably Suffolk and maybe some other Boston-area law schools) to consider me. I like BU because they have the finance and banking review, and I think my background makes me a good fit for there (your thoughts?).

To add to this, I interned last summer under the Chief Economist of a top 3 asset manager, spent the summer after my freshman year conducting economic research (more qualitative analysis) on the Federal Reserve system and how they acted to alleviate credit market conditions during the crisis, started my own student organization focused on pertinent political and economic events, and have participated in our student-run investment group, where I have served as head of the economics team for this academic year. I feel that this background is relevant since I want to pursue law school to learn about the underpinnings of the legal systems implications on the functionality economy, e.g., the legal systems impacts on banks, money markets, and eventually move to apply this knowledge in order to either become a regulator in the financial sector, entrepreneur (thinking Richard Sandor who created the interest-rate future, which is a contract, and carbon tax-credits, another contract). Also very interested in bond markets, derivatives, and the legal elements involved in ensuring the stability and functionality of these markets. Lastly, I have really developed a passion for the interdisciplinary nature of the law and economics "movement." I have a particular interest in rational choice theory as it relates to individual decision-making, an interest that I feel would provide for a useful tool in interpreting legal cases and eventually for formulating laws or revamping new laws to help the system to properly adapt to the way the world actually is, as defined by individual decision-makers.



In essence, am I really that screwed applying to BU/BC with a sub 160 where my interests (seemingly) align very well for learning law, and where legal issues have been plauging the financial sector with no end in sight? It has sort of become my view that it is those interested in the more saturated fields of law (like criminal law) that are causing the lower employment rates at law schools, and rather that positions at regulatory agencies, or even financial institutions at this point, make corporate/business law a much more promising field (granted I get that you don't need to bass the bar to work at the FDIC). I just feel like this is an opportune time to go to law school with an economics-oriented view of the world I feel like I am a somewhat unique and viable candiate for BU/BC. Straighten me out or encourage me plz.

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cinephile
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby cinephile » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:47 pm

With your LSAT, no chance. Maybe (?) if you're URM.

Don't make plans for hopes to get on a specific journal that may or may not work out for you.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:48 pm

You need to crack the 160's for BC/BU. I don't know about suffolk. Did you take the February test? If you've only been studying for two months there is plenty of room for improvement

Your softs aren't game changers so numbers will be paramount unless URM:

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

It sounds like you want biglaw, so check out LST and look at the big firm scores: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ma

Ti Malice
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:29 pm

All of your softs put together wouldn't outweigh even a single extra point on the LSAT. Give up on applying this cycle, and don't even think about going to some dump like Suffolk. The LSAT is the thing that will determine your professional options more than any other. You need to give the test the respect it deserves and study properly for it. You need to put more time into it, and you need to make sure you're taking a good approach (instead of just burning through PTs, for example). Take a class if need be.

eudaimon22
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby eudaimon22 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:07 pm

Ti Malice wrote:All of your softs put together wouldn't outweigh even a single extra point on the LSAT. Give up on applying this cycle, and don't even think about going to some dump like Suffolk. The LSAT is the thing that will determine your professional options more than any other. You need to give the test the respect it deserves and study properly for it. You need to put more time into it, and you need to make sure you're taking a good approach (instead of just burning through PTs, for example). Take a class if need be.


I've been wondering what makes Suffolk a "dump"? Suffolk alum generally do well/very well in the Boston area. Why does it have this persona?


Also-- what is the consensus for time horizon for improving from 155 to 165-170? How feasible? I obviously get it varies on the person. I started around 145ish and jumped around 10 points on my own, no courses. Should I retake in June or spend the summer for October LSAT? This obviously precludes getting a job, which is a high priority obviously.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby PRgradBYU » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:17 pm

eudaimon22 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:All of your softs put together wouldn't outweigh even a single extra point on the LSAT. Give up on applying this cycle, and don't even think about going to some dump like Suffolk. The LSAT is the thing that will determine your professional options more than any other. You need to give the test the respect it deserves and study properly for it. You need to put more time into it, and you need to make sure you're taking a good approach (instead of just burning through PTs, for example). Take a class if need be.


I've been wondering what makes Suffolk a "dump"? Suffolk alum generally do well/very well in the Boston area. Why does it have this persona?


Also-- what is the consensus for time horizon for improving from 155 to 165-170? How feasible? I obviously get it varies on the person. I started around 145ish and jumped around 10 points on my own, no courses. Should I retake in June or spend the summer for October LSAT? This obviously precludes getting a job, which is a high priority obviously.


This is why Suffolk is a dump: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=suffolk

As far as the LSAT, you're definitely going to want to take a class. My first PT was sub-150 and the class I took really helped the concepts to "click." Don't worry about applying this cycle... just fork out the dough, take a reputable course (Manhattan comes to mind) and make the next 6-10 months all about the LSAT. You'll be happy you did it.

rad lulz
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:21 pm

eudaimon22 wrote:I want to pursue law school to learn about the underpinnings of the legal systems implications on the functionality economy, e.g., the legal systems impacts on banks, money markets, and eventually move to apply this knowledge in order to either become a regulator in the financial sector, entrepreneur (thinking Richard Sandor who created the interest-rate future, which is a contract, and carbon tax-credits, another contract). Also very interested in bond markets, derivatives, and the legal elements involved in ensuring the stability and functionality of these markets. Lastly, I have really developed a passion for the interdisciplinary nature of the law and economics "movement." I have a particular interest in rational choice theory as it relates to individual decision-making, an interest that I feel would provide for a useful tool in interpreting legal cases and eventually for formulating laws or revamping new laws to help the system to properly adapt to the way the world actually is, as defined by individual decision-makers.

lawl school doesn't teach you any of this

Enjoy reading 1800s tort cases about boats crashing into each other

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:25 pm

eudaimon22 wrote:It has sort of become my view that it is those interested in the more saturated fields of law (like criminal law) that are causing the lower employment rates at law schools, and rather that positions at regulatory agencies, or even financial institutions at this point, make corporate/business law a much more promising field (granted I get that you don't need to bass the bar to work at the FDIC). I just feel like this is an opportune time to go to law school with an economics-oriented view of the world I feel like I am a somewhat unique and viable candiate for BU/BC. Straighten me out or encourage me plz.

I don't really think this is true. What evidence do you have that criminal law is a more saturated field of law? When corporate/business law = biglaw = $160K a year to start, that's what an awful lot of people are looking to do. And are you aware that the government - including regulatory agencies - doesn't have the money to hire very many people any more?

In any case, you're a viable candidate where your GPA and LSAT scores are competitive. All the other stuff doesn't make up for that.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:33 pm

eudaimon22 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:All of your softs put together wouldn't outweigh even a single extra point on the LSAT. Give up on applying this cycle, and don't even think about going to some dump like Suffolk. The LSAT is the thing that will determine your professional options more than any other. You need to give the test the respect it deserves and study properly for it. You need to put more time into it, and you need to make sure you're taking a good approach (instead of just burning through PTs, for example). Take a class if need be.


I've been wondering what makes Suffolk a "dump"? Suffolk alum generally do well/very well in the Boston area. Why does it have this persona?


Also-- what is the consensus for time horizon for improving from 155 to 165-170? How feasible? I obviously get it varies on the person. I started around 145ish and jumped around 10 points on my own, no courses. Should I retake in June or spend the summer for October LSAT? This obviously precludes getting a job, which is a high priority obviously.


170 can be hard to crack, even before the June LSAT. You can always just study hard for June, and if you're not PTing in the 170s by then, postpone and take it in October. I'm confident its within your capabilities. If you can afford it, studying for the LSAT is way more important than getting a job.

timbs4339
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:20 pm

This reads like a checklist of poor assumptions about legal education and the employment market.

- No, your softs are not great. A ton of people have done interesting internships and founded student groups. If you were the managing partner of a successful asset management firm, that would be a great soft.

-Of course if you count only the people still employed as lawyers who have become successful, Suffolk looks like a great bet. But that is not the entire pool of Suffolk JDs. It is also looking at people who graduated 15 or 20 years ago when Suffolk probably cost a less than $10,000/year in inflation adjusted dollars.

-The work you are trying to do is very specialized and it basically requires biglaw. The tiny number of entry-level jobs at financial regulators go through elite schools like Harvard and Yale. I know, I applied, interviewed, and have friends at financial regulators.

-I'm not sure how you can assume Suffolk's poor biglaw placement is due to self-selection into criminal law and small law. It's really the reverse. Way more people go into law school wanting to do some variation of "corporate law" then can actually get jobs as corporate lawyers. When one big subset of the entry-level jobs pay 160K and the other pays 40K, it's a safe assumption most people will want the former. Also remember that when most people say they want international law or constitutional law or criminal law they are lying or don't know what they want. Don't want until the guy who kept saying he wanted to do civil rights work shows up at OCI with top 10% grades and gets all the corporate law offers to find this out.

-Specialty law reviews are basically worthless on the job market unless they are the flagship Law Review. They exist so the monstrous number of law professors churning out thousands of articles per year have places to publish.

eudaimon22
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby eudaimon22 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:53 pm

timbs4339 wrote:This reads like a checklist of poor assumptions about legal education and the employment market.

- No, your softs are not great. A ton of people have done interesting internships and founded student groups. If you were the managing partner of a successful asset management firm, that would be a great soft.

-Of course if you count only the people still employed as lawyers who have become successful, Suffolk looks like a great bet. But that is not the entire pool of Suffolk JDs. It is also looking at people who graduated 15 or 20 years ago when Suffolk probably cost a less than $10,000/year in inflation adjusted dollars.

-The work you are trying to do is very specialized and it basically requires biglaw. The tiny number of entry-level jobs at financial regulators go through elite schools like Harvard and Yale. I know, I applied, interviewed, and have friends at financial regulators.

-I'm not sure how you can assume Suffolk's poor biglaw placement is due to self-selection into criminal law and small law. It's really the reverse. Way more people go into law school wanting to do some variation of "corporate law" then can actually get jobs as corporate lawyers. When one big subset of the entry-level jobs pay 160K and the other pays 40K, it's a safe assumption most people will want the former. Also remember that when most people say they want international law or constitutional law or criminal law they are lying or don't know what they want. Don't want until the guy who kept saying he wanted to do civil rights work shows up at OCI with top 10% grades and gets all the corporate law offers to find this out.

-Specialty law reviews are basically worthless on the job market unless they are the flagship Law Review. They exist so the monstrous number of law professors churning out thousands of articles per year have places to publish.


First, I never claimed that my softs made me the most interesting man in the world. My point was that I have demonstrated a fervent interest in finance and other areas that I thought related well to law schools and differentiated me from the kids with 4.0s and 170s who drank for 4 years with no experience and are applying simply for the $$$$.

Moreover, I don't know where everyone is inferring that I what I said about law review that I was destined to become the next Judge Posner. Again, it is another attribute of the school (BU in the example I used) that I thought was a compelling reason to think I would be a good "fit" given what the school seems to specialize in.

Last, I never said anything about what I thought about placements into BigLaw firms from Suffolk, nor did I say anything about knowing for certain about the meaning behind poor law school employment numbers. What I said was a generalization about people who want to do law, which is founded on the notion that people watch CSI and Law and Order and aspire to become the biggest defense attorneys. Point taken, however, that most people want the $ and that would imply going into BigLaw which is corporate. I just don't see many people walking around talking about how they are going to law school to learn how to structure CDS's, and many more interested in criminal, torts, etc.

Big Dog
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby Big Dog » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:01 pm

a late applicant with a below median GPA and way bottom quartile LSAT = near zero chance of admission to BU. (The "4.0s and 170s" are a near lock with big money, assuming they demonstrate interest.)

timbs4339
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Re: Late applicant/BU/BC 3.67/ 154-156 on PTs... Chances.....

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:45 pm

eudaimon22 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:This reads like a checklist of poor assumptions about legal education and the employment market.

- No, your softs are not great. A ton of people have done interesting internships and founded student groups. If you were the managing partner of a successful asset management firm, that would be a great soft.

-Of course if you count only the people still employed as lawyers who have become successful, Suffolk looks like a great bet. But that is not the entire pool of Suffolk JDs. It is also looking at people who graduated 15 or 20 years ago when Suffolk probably cost a less than $10,000/year in inflation adjusted dollars.

-The work you are trying to do is very specialized and it basically requires biglaw. The tiny number of entry-level jobs at financial regulators go through elite schools like Harvard and Yale. I know, I applied, interviewed, and have friends at financial regulators.

-I'm not sure how you can assume Suffolk's poor biglaw placement is due to self-selection into criminal law and small law. It's really the reverse. Way more people go into law school wanting to do some variation of "corporate law" then can actually get jobs as corporate lawyers. When one big subset of the entry-level jobs pay 160K and the other pays 40K, it's a safe assumption most people will want the former. Also remember that when most people say they want international law or constitutional law or criminal law they are lying or don't know what they want. Don't want until the guy who kept saying he wanted to do civil rights work shows up at OCI with top 10% grades and gets all the corporate law offers to find this out.

-Specialty law reviews are basically worthless on the job market unless they are the flagship Law Review. They exist so the monstrous number of law professors churning out thousands of articles per year have places to publish.


First, I never claimed that my softs made me the most interesting man in the world. My point was that I have demonstrated a fervent interest in finance and other areas that I thought related well to law schools and differentiated me from the kids with 4.0s and 170s who drank for 4 years with no experience and are applying simply for the $$$$.

Moreover, I don't know where everyone is inferring that I what I said about law review that I was destined to become the next Judge Posner. Again, it is another attribute of the school (BU in the example I used) that I thought was a compelling reason to think I would be a good "fit" given what the school seems to specialize in.

Last, I never said anything about what I thought about placements into BigLaw firms from Suffolk, nor did I say anything about knowing for certain about the meaning behind poor law school employment numbers. What I said was a generalization about people who want to do law, which is founded on the notion that people watch CSI and Law and Order and aspire to become the biggest defense attorneys. Point taken, however, that most people want the $ and that would imply going into BigLaw which is corporate. I just don't see many people walking around talking about how they are going to law school to learn how to structure CDS's, and many more interested in criminal, torts, etc.


You're generalizing about 4.0, 170 kids. How do you know they have no experience? I'd think someone with a good UG GPA and high LSAT might have done some interesting internships or work experience.

Nobody is saying that you think you'll be the next Posner. What they are saying is that law schools do not particularly care about "fit" if you do not have the numbers, especially since fit is not really something that applies to law schools. Every law school has corporate programs, IP programs, criminal, environmental. They are also trying to explain to you that specialty journals are flame.

That's why I said it was a poor assumption. Trust me, nobody in my law school class was waxing poetic about antitrust litigation or IPOs, but 90%+ of them showed up at OCI to interview with large law firms and most of them took offers. There are many reasons why nobody walks around discussing that stuff, but all you really need to know is that your interest in those jobs will mean very little in the biglaw hiring process unless you go to a school where people regularly get biglaw from median. I hope you are doing the smart thing and assuming you'll finish 1L at median so trust me when I say that no biglaw firm is dipping down to the median at any school you could hope to get into. You need to retake and score 170 or close to it if this is what you want to do, or you need to accept that high-end corporate legal work is not in the cards.




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