Page 1 of 1
3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
by fonzy
Hi everyone.
Some more details about me.
Numbers
I have taken 5 years to complete my undergraduate degree, due to a change in program. (Will this hurt me?)
My GPA began strong, took a strong dive in year 2, but has a strong upwards trend (My GPA so far this year is 3.9)
My LSAT is 174. I have taken it once.
Softs
I have won / been a finalist / been top speaker in several major national and international title debate tournaments. I have heard mixed things here about the value of debate, but is sufficient competitive success enough to make it 'unique'?
Various leadership responsibilities within university and inter-university organizations
Worked all through undergrad, around 15 hours a week on top of debating almost every weekend.[/list]
Any predictions / advice much appreciated.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:38 pm
by Nova
I have taken 5 years to complete my undergraduate degree, due to a change in program. (Will this hurt me?)
No.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:42 pm
by patrickd139
Your softs are thoroughly average. Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic. Your GPA will hold you back from schools that you otherwise would have had a shot at, based on your LSAT.
I don't think you're automatically and impossibly out at any school other than maybe HYS. I'd apply to the entire T14 though.
Don't ED anywhere. Don't bother retaking the LSAT, unless you were PTing pretty consistently with near perfect scores. GL!
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:45 pm
by florida1949
patrickd139 wrote:Your softs are thoroughly average. Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic. Your GPA will hold you back from schools that you otherwise would have had a shot at, based on your LSAT.
I don't think you're automatically and impossibly out at any school other than maybe HYS. I'd apply to the entire T14 though.
Don't ED anywhere. Don't bother retaking the LSAT,unless you were PTing pretty consistently with near perfect scores. GL!
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:02 pm
by fonzy
xYour softs are thoroughly average.
Is there anything I could do to improve them? Is there simply a ceiling to the degree to which debate aids you, or is this a question of not enough diversity in experience?
I have already decided to take a year off before law school, so it may be possible for me to get an internship to improve them further.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:05 pm
by BlaqBella
patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:09 pm
by kalvano
Can you cure cancer within the next year? If not, relax, not much you can do will help with admissions. Your numbers are pretty good, so you're in somewhere within the T14, but almost certainly out at HYS.
You'll probably get some money at the lower T14 and have a few nice options to pick from. Best of luck.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:15 pm
by law2015
First off you have good softs and the time it took you to complete undergrad will not hurt you. The only part of your application that will hold you back is your GPA. Regardless, you should get into a few of the CCN and most likely with scholarships.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:18 pm
by dingbat
fonzy wrote:My LSAT is 174; my GPA is 3.60
I just reduced this to all that matters.
The GPA is not bad and the LSAT is great. you should get into most of the lower T14 and probably 1 or 2 of CCN, but probably not HYS (but feel free to throw a hail mary). Expect to get some money
Your softs are no better and no worse than almost every other applicant; it's nice to have, in the sense that not having softs is bad, but it's not the kind of softs that will make any difference whatsoever - not even as a tie breaker. Don't worry about it, the number of people with the kind of softs that matter can be counted on your fingers (and maybe toes).
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:30 pm
by patrickd139
BlaqBella wrote:patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
More than 10,000 people scored as well or better than OP during the 2011-12 admissions cycle. (129925 * .08%) Did OP do well? Sure. Are we here to blow sunshine up OP's ass and tell him/her what a special snowflake they are? No. I didn't tell OP they suck, I said they did great. When you're shooting for CCN and down (possibly with $ at a huge portion of the T14), great is good enough. OP is a long shot at YHS, and should know that.
If you think an LSAT score that gets you into the T14 warrants "fantastic" as an adjective, whereas you have to get a "super duper awesome!" score to get into YHS, then good for you. At that point it's just semantics; you're arguing with an anonymous internet poster as to whether the word "fantastic" is positive enough to describe a YHS level LSAT score or a T14 score.
Either way, OP doesn't have a self esteem problem. Nor do they need to be told his/her score is "fantastic."
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:36 pm
by Doorkeeper
You're out at HYS, but you'll get into CCN. Probably at least 2 of the 3.
You don't need to retake because your GPA bars you from HYS and you already have a 60-80% chance at Columbia and NYU and a 40% chance at Chicago.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:44 pm
by twenty
Doorkeeper wrote:You're out at HYP
I laughed, then was sad at the fact there was no Princeton Law. :'(
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:46 pm
by Ti Malice
patrickd139 wrote:BlaqBella wrote:patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
More than 10,000 people scored as well or better than OP during the 2011-12 admissions cycle. (129925 * .08%)
Minor math fail there, guy. You're only off by an order of magnitude.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:47 pm
by fruitoftheloom
patrickd139 wrote:BlaqBella wrote:patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
More than 10,000 people scored as well or better than OP during the 2011-12 admissions cycle. (129925 * .08%) Did OP do well? Sure. Are we here to blow sunshine up OP's ass and tell him/her what a special snowflake they are? No. I didn't tell OP they suck, I said they did great. When you're shooting for CCN and down (possibly with $ at a huge portion of the T14), great is good enough. OP is a long shot at YHS, and should know that.
If you think an LSAT score that gets you into the T14 warrants "fantastic" as an adjective, whereas you have to get a "super duper awesome!" score to get into YHS, then good for you. At that point it's just semantics; you're arguing with an anonymous internet poster as to whether the word "fantastic" is positive enough to describe a YHS level LSAT score or a T14 score.
Either way, OP doesn't have a self esteem problem. Nor do they need to be told his/her score is "fantastic."
Okay, so I admit, I'm not good at math, but isn't the correct formula just (129925*.01)? He is in the 99th percentile, not 92nd. And I thought LSAT blog had a nice post about how there are maybe around 2-3k applicants with 98th+ percentile scores and there are around 4k seats in the T14?
174 is pretty fantastic.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:47 pm
by Doorkeeper
twentypercentmore wrote:Doorkeeper wrote:You're out at HYP
I laughed, then was sad at the fact there was no Princeton Law. :'(
My name is Doorkeeper, and I suffer from acronym fatigue.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:08 pm
by patrickd139
Ti Malice wrote:patrickd139 wrote:BlaqBella wrote:patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
More than 10,000 people scored as well or better than OP during the 2011-12 admissions cycle. (129925 * .08%)
Minor math fail there, guy. You're only off by an order of magnitude.
This is a fantastic point. And also why I'm not a scientist.
Underlying point is the same: still semantics. Doesn't matter whether OP's LSAT score is "great" or "fantastic." OP's chances at YHS (or Princeton Law, for that matter) are the same.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:22 pm
by PickledPanda
BlaqBella wrote:patrickd139 wrote:Your LSAT is great, but not fantastic.
Some members on this forum can be real douchebags.
OP your LSAT is FANTASTIC. Congrats on scoring better than 99% of all test-takers.
And the most important question of the thread: where are you trying to attend law school??
I lol'ed.
You'll get NYU and CLS, maybe Chi and minimal chance at Harvard. Awesome job on the LSAT. You'll have a great cycle.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:58 pm
by rad lulz
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:48 pm
by fonzy
So I heard you are a special snowflake
The notion of what constitutes 'super softs' is itself up for interpretation.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:58 am
by John_rizzy_rawls
Did you do policy or parli? If policy, it may not be a super soft, but consider that 4/5 years of the best indirect LSAT training ever - as your score indicates. No top notch debater I knew (NDT/State's/CEDA/speaker awards) scored less than a 170 with relatively minimal effort.
But will it put you over the edge for HYS or whatever? Nope.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:06 pm
by twenty
I found that policy actually hurts my logic skillz. When I show up at tournaments to judge and take a PT the next day, I drop five points easily.
EDIT> Two of my LSAT-taking friends have the same problem.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:11 pm
by dingbat
fonzy wrote:So I heard you are a special snowflake
The notion of what constitutes 'super softs' is itself up for interpretation.
nah, it's whatever softs get you to outperform your numbers. the list is rather short, it requires exceptional achievements that a typical applicant doesn't have.
Academic and scientific publications are probably the most common among the under 30 crowd, while a military career matters to some schools. Non-trads are more likely to have better softs, but even when they don't, their cycle is much harder to predict.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:45 am
by John_rizzy_rawls
twentypercentmore wrote:I found that policy actually hurts my logic skillz. When I show up at tournaments to judge and take a PT the next day, I drop five points easily.
EDIT> Two of my LSAT-taking friends have the same problem.
Really? That's interesting. Almost every top policy debater I knew score above 170. Although going straight from a tourney to a PT may not be good. I'm more so referring to the underlying skills you learn and train - not the act of a round in and of itself.
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:50 am
by Richie Tenenbaum
PickledPanda wrote:
You'll get NYU and CLS, maybe Chi and minimal chance at Harvard. Awesome job on the LSAT. You'll have a great cycle.
I wouldn't doubt that the drop in applications have made things less competitive, but is this really true or is it a bit optimistic? If true, my timing sucks. (I applied with OPs stats a few years ago, albeit with a slightly lower GPA and multiple takes, and struck out on CCN.)
Regarding OP's question: Your softs are average, and I doubt there is anything you can do in the next year to improve that. The best thing you can do is make sure your application package is perfect, which means spending a lot of time on your PS and supplemental essays. (You may consider doing things in the next year that will help shape what you can talk about in your personal statement.)
Re: 3.60 / 1.74 / But unsure about my debating softs
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:28 am
by sinfiery
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
I wouldn't doubt that the drop in applications have made things less competitive, but is this really true or is it a bit optimistic? If true, my timing sucks. (I applied with OPs stats a few years ago, albeit with a slightly lower GPA and multiple takes, and struck out on CCN.)
I think the lack of test takers will really help him at CLS/NYU so probably a good shot at that. Gonna be hard to keep medians/75%s for those schools this year.
Dunno about UChi, I can never gauge it with that class size.
HLS, his GPA seems to be very low + applying late in the cycle, doesn't seem likely unless his softs do something dramatic for him.