Average GPA, embarrassing LSAT scores but OMG I WANT THIS! Forum

[LittlePete83]

Thanks! I needed the encouragement! I guess the one good thing about getting older is that my undergraduate GPA is becoming (slightly) less of a factor. I know it's still one of the first thing ad comms look at but I got those grades 7-10 years ago. And a double major in accounting and finance at a top 15 business school has to rank higher than mass comm or modern dance, right!? Right?!

But all jokes aside, you're totally right. This will be my 5th (I'll pause as you pick your jaw up off the floor) official time taking the test. I've taken 10ish PTs (all sections timed in one sitting) total so I need to get my act together. Lord knows I have enough LSAT PTs and study guides.

I've been using PowerScore. I like their no BS approach but I'll pick up Pithypike's guide. Thanks again and best of luck to you!

Wait, what? You've only taken 2 PTs for each administered LSAT you've taken? My friend, I took every PT available going 7 years back, twice. If that has truly been the extent of your PTing, you have a lot of room to grow.

With his remarkable foresight and intellect he won't be at median long!

Sorry everybody is being mean, LittlePete. You are just extremely uninformed. Why do you even want to be a lawyer? You claim your current job is bad, do you know what people who are lucky enough to get legal jobs do? At the schools would are looking at you have about a 50% chance to get a small firm job paying around $40,000 a year. That probably isn't must more than you are making right now and you can expect longer hours (and $200,000 in debt). If you are unlucky you just have the debt and the same job prospects you had before going to law school.

And with your remarkable reading comprehension, you'll be clerking for Chief Justice Roberts in no time!

But all jokes aside, with such a negative opinion of law school, why are you even in law school? That's not just directed at you. If you think law school is so horrible, why not just drop out?

[LittlePete83]

Thanks! I needed the encouragement! I guess the one good thing about getting older is that my undergraduate GPA is becoming (slightly) less of a factor. I know it's still one of the first thing ad comms look at but I got those grades 7-10 years ago. And a double major in accounting and finance at a top 15 business school has to rank higher than mass comm or modern dance, right!? Right?!

But all jokes aside, you're totally right. This will be my 5th (I'll pause as you pick your jaw up off the floor) official time taking the test. I've taken 10ish PTs (all sections timed in one sitting) total so I need to get my act together. Lord knows I have enough LSAT PTs and study guides.

I've been using PowerScore. I like their no BS approach but I'll pick up Pithypike's guide. Thanks again and best of luck to you!

Wait, what? You've only taken 2 PTs for each administered LSAT you've taken? My friend, I took every PT available going 7 years back, twice. If that has truly been the extent of your PTing, you have a lot of room to grow.

Yeah, no shit (and I mean that with complete sincerity. I need to get it together). The first test was a throwaway and I shouldn't have even gotten out of bed for that one. But when I said 10 practice tests, I meant 10 from start to finish. I've worked through at least 2 dozen exams one section at a time with a tutor or studying alone. But I think we've all come to a consensus:
1. My GPA is shit and I have an uphill LSAT battle ahead of me
2. I need to study my ass off
3. I need killer apps
4. I need to stop wasting my time justifying my life choices with complete strangers
5. I agree to disagree about the necessity of attending a T14 school. School #15 must feel so left out. And poor #16! Always a bridesmaid.
With that, I'm out. Like all other threads, this one has become completely useless.

[TopHatToad]

Thanks! I needed the encouragement! I guess the one good thing about getting older is that my undergraduate GPA is becoming (slightly) less of a factor. I know it's still one of the first thing ad comms look at but I got those grades 7-10 years ago. And a double major in accounting and finance at a top 15 business school has to rank higher than mass comm or modern dance, right!? Right?!

But all jokes aside, you're totally right. This will be my 5th (I'll pause as you pick your jaw up off the floor) official time taking the test. I've taken 10ish PTs (all sections timed in one sitting) total so I need to get my act together. Lord knows I have enough LSAT PTs and study guides.

I've been using PowerScore. I like their no BS approach but I'll pick up Pithypike's guide. Thanks again and best of luck to you!

Wait, what? You've only taken 2 PTs for each administered LSAT you've taken? My friend, I took every PT available going 7 years back, twice. If that has truly been the extent of your PTing, you have a lot of room to grow.

Ditto this. Tom Joad is being unfairly harsh on a person who (at least sarcastically) understands the typical TLS message, so I won't bother reiterating it. That being said, for the level of dedication you claim to have, your testing/practice history is obscenely short. None of the schools you're looking at now will give you (statistically) a good chance of becoming a successful lawyer, so studying up for another shot at the LSAT is your only correct answer.

Colorado law schools will probably accept you, but are you really willing to risk median and above... or better? This is literally equivalent to a random-chance coinflip. I don't care about your dedication/motivation/work ethic, everyone else has it as well. We may be sarcastic and rude and malcontent with our lot in life, but we're not wrong.

ETA: there are a lot of situations between T14 and CO. Especially when you consider higher scores for cheaper tuition. Right now, you strike me as a better-informed version of the person who states their goals and then ignores all relevant advice, so please be more than that! We're not saying "170 or don't go" but we're saying that a desire to be top 10% will translate into reality roughly 10% of the time.

[Tuco Salamanca]

Thanks! I needed the encouragement! I guess the one good thing about getting older is that my undergraduate GPA is becoming (slightly) less of a factor. I know it's still one of the first thing ad comms look at but I got those grades 7-10 years ago. And a double major in accounting and finance at a top 15 business school has to rank higher than mass comm or modern dance, right!? Right?!

But all jokes aside, you're totally right. This will be my 5th (I'll pause as you pick your jaw up off the floor) official time taking the test. I've taken 10ish PTs (all sections timed in one sitting) total so I need to get my act together. Lord knows I have enough LSAT PTs and study guides.

I've been using PowerScore. I like their no BS approach but I'll pick up Pithypike's guide. Thanks again and best of luck to you!

Wait, what? You've only taken 2 PTs for each administered LSAT you've taken? My friend, I took every PT available going 7 years back, twice. If that has truly been the extent of your PTing, you have a lot of room to grow.

Yeah, no shit (and I mean that with complete sincerity. I need to get it together). The first test was a throwaway and I shouldn't have even gotten out of bed for that one. But when I said 10 practice tests, I meant 10 from start to finish. I've worked through at least 2 dozen exams one section at a time with a tutor or studying alone. But I think we've all come to a consensus:
1. My GPA is shit and I have an uphill LSAT battle ahead of me
2. I need to study my ass off
3. I need killer apps
4. I need to stop wasting my time justifying my life choices with complete strangers
5. I agree to disagree about the necessity of attending a T14 school. School #15 must feel so left out. And poor #16! Always a bridesmaid.
With that, I'm out. Like all other threads, this one has become completely useless.

1) Your GPA isn't that bad, but you need to score high enough on the LSAT to offset it. Yes, you have an uphill battle.
2) Yes you do.
3) Not as important but can't hurt.
4) When everyone disagrees with your position, perhaps you should reevaluate your position.
5) T14 is a distinction based on employment prospects. No one will argue against going to Texas or UCLA but it's generally recommended to have a scholarship to them (Texas not as much because it dominates its market, UCLA/Vanderbilt/USC/etc. you probably should).

This thread isn't useless if you take its advice seriously. Law school is a gamble and you need to play the odds. Best of luck.

[danquayle]

TLS is full of bitter dicks who only justify their choices by belittling others, but then again, legal profession itself is full of bitter dicks who only justify their choices by belittling others. Welcome!

That said, TLS consensus is not wrong here for most aspirations. The most pertinent question for you, OP, is what are your expectations?

If you're looking to start out as a solo practitioner doing mostly small time criminal defense and civil matters, then it truly does not matter where you go, yes. Just be mindful that its like any small business, a lot of risk and a lot of work in the start up. And a lot of capital investment once you consider the cost of attending law school.

But if you're set on taking the traditional route of joining a law firm out of law school and working your way up to partner, then your options will more than likely foreclose that possibility. Law is a prestige business, and you need a certain level of prestige to even get in the door at most places. Why? Because unlike in many professions (like sales, trading, etc) there are not clear metrics to measure good lawyers. Prestige of law school's attended is the most often used proxy, and most clients will opt for a poor T-14 lawyer over an outstanding Denver lawyer. Just the way it is, and law firms understand that.

[LittleTree]

Flame.

[PDaddy]

Here's the deal. Your 3.2 is bad...

In what world is a 3.2 GPA "bad"?!

A 3.2 isn't a stellar GPA, but it is solid - especially for an accounting and finance major. OP should wait a full year and practice the LSAT like hell, studying both PowerScore and Manhattan, with a private tutor if necessary. OP should also work or do community service, and work on perfecting essays and getting strong LOR's.

The biggest mistake people make is rushing into the process. These days, the longer one waits the better - given the economy. You want to graduate when the economy is on the definite upswing and firms are hiring en masse again, which might not be for another 2-4 years anyways.

Put a 3.2 GPA in Finance next to a 170 LSAT (with an additional year of community service and some strong essays and LOR's) and you could go to a T14, especially since your 3.2 is in a relatively challenging major. Don't sell yourself short. Get crackin' on that Manhattan or powerscore LSAT course. Apply in the fall of 2013.

[cinephile]

I've been around the block a time or two so I know that you can go to a school that isn't a T14 and still get a job at a decent firm that pays well. Sure it won't be as easy and there won't be as many jobs for a CU grad but I'm prepared to fight.

It doesn't matter how much you fight because every single person will be fighting just as hard. So expect to end up at median. I don't think Paul Campos has had very promising things to say about the job prospects for median students out of CU. So if you're not interested in hearing the perspective of law students, maybe you should look into what a law professor has to say about the legal economy.

[specialsnowflake]

As someone with your exact numbers in the past (3.23/151) I retook and got a 161 last year. I used Velocity and it helped immensely in making that jump. Don't give up. Just work at it. You have time for December

[WanderingPondering]

4) When everyone disagrees with your position, perhaps you should reevaluate your position.

In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

[rad lulz]

4) When everyone disagrees with your position, perhaps you should reevaluate your position.

In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

It's not a matter of principle that CU has shitty employment outcomes.

[BlaqBella]

Before I delve into the deepest, darkest secrets of my educational past, let me preface this post by stating that I know I won't be going to a T14. I'm not delusional. I'm aiming for middle-of-the-road. My undergraduate GPA and LSAT ineptitude (it's seriously my white whale) won't let me go any higher on the LSAT ladder. Plus, while I know that the Harvards of the world have a better pick of jobs, I also know that Suits is just a TV show and Legally Blonde is just a movie.

Now that you've read my ranting disclaimer, here are my deets:
Undergrad GPA: 3.2, BSBA in accounting and finance. Highest LSAT (NO laughing) 151 (got the same MF-ing score twice).
Softs: I'm 28 (nearly 29) with 6 full years of work experience (though not relevant to legal profession -- mostly advertising). 3.9 GPA in MS/Legal Administration program. Graduated 1st in my class. Great reco's from profs and former employers.

Here's my school list:
CU Boulder
Denver
Loyola Marymount
Pepperdine
San Diego
Kansas
Ohio State
Case Western

I'm a CO resident so CU is my 1st choice, Denver is my second choice. Some (or most) of you may think this whole thing is a reach but stranger things have happened, right?

I was signed up for the Oct LSAT but work was insane and I didn't feel nearly as prepared as I wanted to, so December it is! I know it's late in the game but I don't want to risk another 151 (or lower). I really want to just submit everything now and never think about the LSAT again but I'm thinking that's not an option. So, here are my questions:

A. Can I apply to Denver (and/or other schools) now with my current LSAT score and then reapply if necessary? I read in another thread that I can ask a school to review my application even if I have a potential LSAT scheduled.

B. What are my chances with these schools? I know some (most) are reaches but I'm tenacious and I don't take no for an answer. This will be my fourth dance with the law school devil. Call me crazy but all of those rejection letters haven't deterred me yet.

So, TLSers, be kind. I'm nearly 30 and can't stomach too much more BS than I'm putting up with at work. Give me some constructive criticism or just tell me a good story. I'm listening.

1. Hire a private LSAT tutor
2. Pick up Manhattan LSAT guides (in LG, LR and RC) and re-learn everything from scratch
3. Score higher on LSAT
4. Profit - Acceptance + $$$ to attend

Hold off sending those applications until you've nailed the LSAT down. It's conquerable. Just do the work and be patient with the test and more importantly, yourself.

Great advice -- Thank you! I think I have all of the what-not-to-do's down. I've gotten into schools, just no scholarship $$. With my undergrad and grad loans, I'll need all the help I can get.

How does Manhattan differ from PowerScore? And as for the tutor, I tried that for round 3 and my score dropped 4 points. I'm sure my tutor was just a dud but omg they're SO expensive. Any suggestions for online courses? My work schedule is so insane that in-person classes won't work.

Most days at work I have quite a few moments that motivate me keep studying my ass off and to write KILLER personal statements so I'm not giving up on this one

The fact that you need all the help you can get is even more reason to try and do well on the LSATs. The money you invest in private tutoring/an LSAT course will be considered a drop in the bucket when compared to taking out major loans with little to no viable employment options. Invest in this test today and save money in the long-run.

Manhattan LSAT (MLSAT) is considered one of the best out there as far as courses go. I'm not sure how it compares to Powerscore but you can't go wrong with MLSAT. Check out the LSAT Discussion forum for more information and comparison of both.

MLSAT unlike most other courses also offer an array of options for whatever the schedule. They offer online courses several times throughout the year. Look and see what is available and best works with your schedule:

http://www.manhattanlsat.com


Either way, expend less energy and time on the naysayers and sarcasm in this thread and more on getting started with your LSAT studies.

From one working professional to another, best wishes to you!

[twenty]

Here's the deal. Your 3.2 is bad...

In what world is a 3.2 GPA "bad"?!

A 3.2 isn't a stellar GPA, but it is solid - especially for an accounting and finance major.

Nah, it's bad when it's below the 25th at WUSTL. OP needs to approach studying for the LSAT like they would if they had a 3.0 GPA. In other words, like hell.

[Nicholasnickynic]

A. Can I apply to Denver (and/or other schools) now with my current LSAT score and then reapply if necessary?

Yeahhh, but don't do this. Apply the second your December LSAT comes back.

Here's the deal. Your 3.2 is bad, but it's not end of the world bad. Unless you're literally retarded or English isn't your first language, there is no reason you can't get up to at least a 162 with drilling. How many PTs have you done? I'd say the vast majority of TLS has taken at least 25 PTs in total between sections and full length ones.

The LSAT is easily the most learnable thing in the world. I went from a 148 diagnostic to a 180 (most recent was 177) from last October to now. It's totally possible. Use Pithypike's guide.The less debt you take on by getting your LSAT up, the better.

Good luck.

Thanks! I needed the encouragement! I guess the one good thing about getting older is that my undergraduate GPA is becoming (slightly) less of a factor. FALSE I know it's still one of the first thing ad comms look at but I got those grades 7-10 years ago. And a double major in accounting and finance at a top 15 business school has to rank higher than mass comm or modern dance, right!? Right?!
NOPE
But all jokes aside, you're totally right. This will be my 5th (I'll pause as you pick your jaw up off the floor) official time taking the test. I've taken 10ish PTs (all sections timed in one sitting) total so I need to get my act together. Lord knows I have enough LSAT PTs and study guides.

I've been using PowerScore. I like their no BS approach but I'll pick up Pithypike's guide. Thanks again and best of luck to you!

Law schools live and die by the USNWR rankings. IF a school drops too much, the dean generally gets fired. You can find examples all over the place. Guess what are the two factors about incoming students that help a school's USNWR ranking?

I'll save you teh suspense:
GPA
LSAT

Unless you are going for a top 6 or so school, I imagine the VAST majority of schools would rather have a 3.5, 165 modern dance dance major then a 3.1, 155 <insert impressive math/science/bussiness major/degree here>. They are not looking for the future leaders of america. They are looking to raise their rank. Because if they don't, they lose thier jobs. It's that simple. And, if you don't believe me... go to lawschoolnumbers.com ... notice how nicely the numbers line up... because those two numbers are all that matters. That's it. Unless you really truly have something deeply unique about you, unless you are truly a special snowflake- then all they care about is gpa and lsat.

[MsAvocadoPit]

You CAN improve your LSAT, you really just need to put in some hard hours to get it up, even just a small increase will have a tremendous impact.

I have an LSAT similar to yours, but now my practice scores are around 163-165 but I don't think I've peaked yet. I'm retaking it this October, so you'd have much more time to be ready by December! I have done Testmaster's full length course which I thought was decent, it helped a bit. Right now I'm using Velocity for online resources/explanations of PTs. I think if you're feeling lost with the LSAT and formulating your own study plan feels daunting and helpless, a prep course is really the way to go. Velocity is on the cheaper side and online, I really like it so far. Testmaster's is good but expensive and not as flexible with your schedule.

I recommend searching TLS to find out what people say about all the prep courses/materials available. Good luck! It's POSSIBLE!

[Funkycrime]

I've been around the block a time or two so I know that you can go to a school that isn't a T14 and still get a job at a decent firm that pays well. Sure it won't be as easy and there won't be as many jobs for a CU grad but I'm prepared to fight.

So clueless. I almost want to cry.



Or laugh.

Hmmmmm you've been a TLS member since 2008 so that means you're either a 3L or a recent grad. In either case, you know everything there is to know about, well, everything.

But seriously, what are you doing here? Trying to break my spirit because you didn't pass the bar? Did your favorite professor ream you for incorrectly citing a case?

Don't cry for me, Cher Horowitz. You're the one who drank the T14 kool-aid. You think you need a Harvard diploma to make partner at a big firm? Wow. Naive and bitter. Not a good color on you.

LOL. Why are people still taking OP seriously?

[Real Madrid]

Is not going to law school an option? I would imagine you can make a respectable $20,000 a year with your current level of education.

Pure class. Bet you have lots of friends in law school.

[somewhatwayward]

Here's the deal. Your 3.2 is bad...

In what world is a 3.2 GPA "bad"?!

A 3.2 isn't a stellar GPA, but it is solid - especially for an accounting and finance major. OP should wait a full year and practice the LSAT like hell, studying both PowerScore and Manhattan, with a private tutor if necessary. OP should also work or do community service, and work on perfecting essays and getting strong LOR's.

The biggest mistake people make is rushing into the process. These days, the longer one waits the better - given the economy. You want to graduate when the economy is on the definite upswing and firms are hiring en masse again, which might not be for another 2-4 years anyways.

Put a 3.2 GPA in Finance next to a 170 LSAT (with an additional year of community service and some strong essays and LOR's) and you could go to a T14, especially since your 3.2 is in a relatively challenging major. Don't sell yourself short. Get crackin' on that Manhattan or powerscore LSAT course. Apply in the fall of 2013.

3.2 might not be bad in an absolute sense (although in this grade-inflated world the argument could be made that it is), but it is bad in a law-school-application sense. 3.2 is below the median, and probably 25th percentile, at every school worth going to. That is why it is bad. The good news is that, unlike a bad LSAT, a bad GPA can be overcome.

ETA: you didn't happen to have a 3.2 or below, did you? Or an equally bad GPA (3.5 or below)?

[glitter178]

I wish there was a "where are they now" section on TLS

[Tom Joad]

Is not going to law school an option? I would imagine you can make a respectable $20,000 a year with your current level of education.

Pure class. Bet you have lots of friends in law school.

I just don't think a person is a bad person if they are making $20,000 a year. Lots of working people are lucky to get that. Minimum wage is $7.25 an hour times 40 hours a week (most minimum wage employers don't let employees even get to 40 hours anyway, but we can assume the person has two part time jobs) times 52 weeks in a year equals $15,080 per year. Certainly making $20,000 a year could be better than what OP is getting into by potentially going $200,000 in debt to make (maybe) $40,000 a year.

[IAFG]

I wish there was a "where are they now" section on TLS

Oooh... me too.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You are out at every school on your list. You need to be above either the LSAT median or the GPA median at a given school to have a shot. Sorry.

[Gator_Law]

Study for the test this time around and get a 160 or so.

[rebexness]

I wish there was a "where are they now" section on TLS

Oooh... me too.

+1

Me four.

ETA: 4th time retaker here. Getting the same score twice sucks, OP. I know how you feel. The good thing is that this stupid test is incredibly learn-able.

[Crowing]

Lol @ "drinking kool-aid". That's pretty much the most redneck insult ever - I should know after living in MO for most of the past 15 years