ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

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BruceWayne
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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:43 pm

I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.

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Rahviveh
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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:44 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


What about the OCI figures for CLS where 85% of the participants got an offer? Is it that good at other T14's as well?

Also, a lot of the other T14's don't appeal to me and are in places that don't sound fun at all!
Last edited by Rahviveh on Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20130312
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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:44 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


We get it. You went to a T6 and got screwed.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby milanproda » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:45 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
milanproda wrote:180???? How??? HOW????? :mrgreen:


Sent LSAC pic of my tits!

Haha JK... just studied a lot. <3 Pithypike


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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Seriously, don't ED. If you're above a 3.4 and above the 75th LSAT, you'll get in and likely be able to negotiate for aid.

Also, what Bruce is saying is kinda right, but even more than that if you can get 50k from NYU you'll definitely get something from Columbia. I'd suspect that you'll get more than that anyway.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:46 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


We get it. You went to a T6 and got screwed.


No, he went to UVA and hates New York.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:47 pm

Or whatever. His schtick is getting old.

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banjo
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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby banjo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


I still don't understand why placement below median is the only consideration. What about more reliable placement at and above median? Isn't that one of the reasons CLS consistently outperforms Georgetown in placement data? That has to be worth something.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby 06102016 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:00 pm

..

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:15 pm

slack_academic wrote:
banjo wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


I still don't understand why placement below median is the only consideration. What about more reliable placement at and above median? Isn't that one of the reasons CLS consistently outperforms Georgetown in placement data? That has to be worth something.


It's obviously worth something, but below-median placement needs to be considered to account for worst case scenarios. A school placing top 50% of a given class into sweet sweet Biglaw jobs doesn't mean much when you're bottom 50% and relegated to shitlaw. In that scenario, you might prefer to have significantly less debt at a school with less stellar employment prospects.

Bingo

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Swimp » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:17 pm

slack_academic wrote:
banjo wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I hate to bring in negative news, but OP you need to understand that there are NO non HYS schools that give you a particularly good shot at biglaw below median. And of the one's that give you a decent shot, it's not a big enough of a boost to turn down 50K+ in scholly money at another top 14. EDing to any Top 14 school when you have the option of going to another one with significant money isn't a good idea ITE.

In other words going to Columbia for 50K more than NYU doesn't make sense.


I still don't understand why placement below median is the only consideration. What about more reliable placement at and above median? Isn't that one of the reasons CLS consistently outperforms Georgetown in placement data? That has to be worth something.


It's obviously worth something, but below-median placement needs to be considered to account for worst case scenarios. A school placing top 50% of a given class into sweet sweet Biglaw jobs doesn't mean much when you're bottom 50% and relegated to shitlaw. In that scenario, you might prefer to have significantly less debt at a school with less stellar employment prospects.


Yeah. I think the thinking is: since no one can know ahead of time where they're going to end up on the curve, you might as well pick a place where the worst position you could end up in is acceptable to you. Kind of a law school version of Rawls' just society.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:26 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:Or whatever. His schtick is getting old.


There are too many morons like you on this website. You really have no idea how getting a job ITE works yet you're spewing out bullshit advice. The other thing about your post is that it makes no damn sense. I'm not even sure how the "hate NYC"/hate top 6/ whatever bullshit you're talking about is relevant to what we were talking about (besides the fact that you're wrong about that---but why am I even explaining myself to your dumbass?).


slack_academic wrote:It's obviously worth something, but below-median placement needs to be considered to account for worst case scenarios. A school placing top 50% of a given class into sweet sweet Biglaw jobs doesn't mean much when you're bottom 50% and relegated to shitlaw. In that scenario, you might prefer to have significantly less debt at a school with less stellar employment prospects.


EXACTLY to the bolded. Thank God there are some people who know what they're talking about when addressing the job market.

The other thing banjo is that realistically, and this is something that people like ingood faith and 0L's don't get, is that essentially all of the top 14 schools can put an above median student into a biglaw job (assuming we're talking NYC). If you're above median whether you get a NYC biglaw job is going to come down more to personal factors like interviewing ability and W/E. Sure above median Columbia is probably a shoe in for a NYC firm job, but above median GULC is probably fine too as long as the soft factors workout right.


Too many people gamble on the best case scenario. They think "If I get above median I will have a WAAAY higher shot at a V10 firm from Columbia/Penn than I will at Michigan. So I rather pay sticker at Columbia than go to Michigan with a 90K scholarship." It's one thing if you're looking at the two schools for a similar price, but when you have big scholarship options that significantly changes the calculus because of the odds of being below median.

Perhaps what's most important to understand is that firms aren't differentiating below median candidates based on which non HYS top 14 they went to. Once a person lands below median, firms seem not to really care which top 14 the applicant is at (Unless it's HYS). It's crucial to understand this when evaluating your options.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Or whatever. His schtick is getting old.


There are too many morons like you on this website. You really have no idea how getting a job ITE works yet you're spewing out bullshit advice. The other thing about your post is that it makes no damn sense. I'm not even sure how the "hate NYC"/hate top 6/ whatever bullshit you're talking about is relevant to what we were talking about (besides the fact that you're wrong about that---but why am I even explaining myself to your dumbass?).


Wow, u mad? I didn't even say that. Check the post above my last one.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:42 pm

BruceWayne wrote:There are too many morons like you on this website. You really have no idea how getting a job ITE works yet you're spewing out bullshit advice. The other thing about your post is that it makes no damn sense. I'm not even sure how the "hate NYC"/hate top 6/ whatever bullshit you're talking about is relevant to what we were talking about (besides the fact that you're wrong about that---but why am I even explaining myself to your dumbass?).


I don't think this was meant to be directed at me, but:

You're changing the conversation here. Although the job stuff is relevant (and really the most important part of deciding where to go!) this thread wasn't about job stuff explicitly. It was about defraying cost of attendance through scholarships. I don't think anyone claimed "yeah lol you should totally spend money needlessly." Everyone said "EDing is a bad call; you can negotiate aid and you should consider that."

The deeper irony here is that yes you know more about job stuff and I'm glad you do. I'm glad we have angry posters who are honest and upfront about the realities of the current market. That said I don't know if you know much about the admissions game right now. I'm not saying the "economic judgment" side of deciding where to go or anything like that. I'm saying that you seem to be repeatedly lambasting people for making choices that you yourself might not have had the opportunity to make. OP has a really good shot at serious money from a T6 school. Given that splitters don't always get more aid for trading down, the chicken little act is really out of place here. This is why your advice, although useful and tangentially related, isn't always appreciated.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:44 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Too many people gamble on the best case scenario. They think "If I get above median I will have a WAAAY higher shot at a V10 firm from Columbia/Penn than I will at Michigan. So I rather pay sticker at Columbia than go to Michigan with a 90K scholarship." It's one thing if you're looking at the two schools for a similar price, but when you have big scholarship options that significantly changes the calculus because of the odds of being below median

In the words of Bill Clinton - you've gotta do the arithmetic.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:45 pm

BruceWayne wrote:

Too many people gamble on the best case scenario. They think "If I get above median I will have a WAAAY higher shot at a V10 firm from Columbia/Penn than I will at Michigan. So I rather pay sticker at Columbia than go to Michigan with a 90K scholarship." It's one thing if you're looking at the two schools for a similar price, but when you have big scholarship options that significantly changes the calculus because of the odds of being below median.

Perhaps what's most important to understand is that firms aren't differentiating below median candidates based on which non HYS top 14 they went to. Once a person lands below median, firms seem not to really care which top 14 the applicant is at (Unless it's HYS). It's crucial to understand this when evaluating your options.


This isn't what I'm saying at all! :cry:

I don't care about getting a V10 firm, I just don't want to be screwed career wise if I finish below median! If I have less debt at Michigan but am working in shitlaw anyways that still sounds horrible to me!

It also seems from statistics and leaked OCI results that firms ARE going deeper into the class at CCNP, which is why I'm even considering ED!!!

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:52 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:It also seems from statistics and leaked OCI results that firms ARE going deeper into the class at CCNP, which is why I'm even considering ED!!!


But seriously, don't ED. The debt consideration stuff that BruceWayne talks about is totally legit. You can talk to posters here who wish they had taken the money at lower schools. In your case, you could still get CLS with money and have that as an option if you don't ED. ED is a fool's gambit right now.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby banjo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:17 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Or whatever. His schtick is getting old.


There are too many morons like you on this website. You really have no idea how getting a job ITE works yet you're spewing out bullshit advice. The other thing about your post is that it makes no damn sense. I'm not even sure how the "hate NYC"/hate top 6/ whatever bullshit you're talking about is relevant to what we were talking about (besides the fact that you're wrong about that---but why am I even explaining myself to your dumbass?).


slack_academic wrote:It's obviously worth something, but below-median placement needs to be considered to account for worst case scenarios. A school placing top 50% of a given class into sweet sweet Biglaw jobs doesn't mean much when you're bottom 50% and relegated to shitlaw. In that scenario, you might prefer to have significantly less debt at a school with less stellar employment prospects.


EXACTLY to the bolded. Thank God there are some people who know what they're talking about when addressing the job market.

The other thing banjo is that realistically, and this is something that people like ingood faith and 0L's don't get, is that essentially all of the top 14 schools can put an above median student into a biglaw job (assuming we're talking NYC). If you're above median whether you get a NYC biglaw job is going to come down more to personal factors like interviewing ability and W/E. Sure above median Columbia is probably a shoe in for a NYC firm job, but above median GULC is probably fine too as long as the soft factors workout right.


Too many people gamble on the best case scenario. They think "If I get above median I will have a WAAAY higher shot at a V10 firm from Columbia/Penn than I will at Michigan. So I rather pay sticker at Columbia than go to Michigan with a 90K scholarship." It's one thing if you're looking at the two schools for a similar price, but when you have big scholarship options that significantly changes the calculus because of the odds of being below median.

Perhaps what's most important to understand is that firms aren't differentiating below median candidates based on which non HYS top 14 they went to. Once a person lands below median, firms seem not to really care which top 14 the applicant is at (Unless it's HYS). It's crucial to understand this when evaluating your options.


This makes sense -- thanks guys.

eta: sorry if I helped derail this topic

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:24 pm

hibiki wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:It also seems from statistics and leaked OCI results that firms ARE going deeper into the class at CCNP, which is why I'm even considering ED!!!


But seriously, don't ED. The debt consideration stuff that BruceWayne talks about is totally legit. You can talk to posters here who wish they had taken the money at lower schools. In your case, you could still get CLS with money and have that as an option if you don't ED. ED is a fool's gambit right now.


If I was more confident I'd get into CCN RD then I'd agree with you. I guess I have some thinking to do!

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Greenandgold » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:47 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
hibiki wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:It also seems from statistics and leaked OCI results that firms ARE going deeper into the class at CCNP, which is why I'm even considering ED!!!


But seriously, don't ED. The debt consideration stuff that BruceWayne talks about is totally legit. You can talk to posters here who wish they had taken the money at lower schools. In your case, you could still get CLS with money and have that as an option if you don't ED. ED is a fool's gambit right now.


If I was more confident I'd get into CCN RD then I'd agree with you. I guess I have some thinking to do!


You're a lock at NYU. I'd say a pretty good shot at Chicago with how many of us splitters they let off of the waitlist this last cycle. Columbia I'd say you're a little above 50/50. You really don't need to ED unless you're absolutely certain you want to go to one of these schools at full price. You'll get scholarship money at NYU RD.
Last edited by Greenandgold on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:40 pm

This isn't what I'm saying at all! :cry:

I don't care about getting a V10 firm, I just don't want to be screwed career wise if I finish below median! If I have less debt at Michigan but am working in shitlaw anyways that still sounds horrible to me!

It also seems from statistics and leaked OCI results that firms ARE going deeper into the class at CCNP, which is why I'm even considering ED!!![/quote]


Well I'm not saying this to freak you out; I just want to tell you the truth. This is exactly how you should be thinking. The problem is that right now you really are kinda screwed career wise if you land below median at any school that isn't HYS. That's how bad things are right now. That's why, if you have the option of getting money, your thinking should be more along the lines of this: "OK if I end up below median, I probably won't get a big law job, but where can I go that gives me the BEST shot at a biglaw job below median, BUT ALSO THE LEAST debt." In your case, from what the guys who know more about admissions than I do have said, that would be NYU. I do know this. ED at ANY school when you have the option of significant money at a top 14 is a TERRIBLE idea. Good luck.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:56 pm

BruceWayne wrote:ED at ANY school when you have the option of significant money at a top 14 is a TERRIBLE idea. Good luck.


Thanks for coming to the same conclusion as me after that weird rant.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:15 am

I think NYU might have had a 3.5 GPA floor for their 50K scholarship that the 3.5+ splitters all got. My 3.49 got nothing. Who knows if they'll keep that up next cycle.

As long as you are above a 3.4 you should land CLS regular decision with little trouble. Chicago is much tougher for splitters.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby smaug_ » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:28 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:I think NYU might have had a 3.5 GPA floor for their 50K scholarship that the 3.5+ splitters all got. My 3.49 got nothing. Who knows if they'll keep that up next cycle.

As long as you are above a 3.4 you should land CLS regular decision with little trouble. Chicago is much tougher for splitters.


Also note that Columbia doesn't seem to have that same scholarship floor, for some reason.

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Re: ED CLS vs Chi - Better choice for splitters?

Postby indigomachine » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:11 am

hibiki wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I think NYU might have had a 3.5 GPA floor for their 50K scholarship that the 3.5+ splitters all got. My 3.49 got nothing. Who knows if they'll keep that up next cycle.

As long as you are above a 3.4 you should land CLS regular decision with little trouble. Chicago is much tougher for splitters.


Also note that Columbia doesn't seem to have that same scholarship floor, for some reason.


Maybe CLS has more money for fewer people? I think NYU has an inordinate amount of full rides for niche things and all those people have baller stats and/or life stories; that's gotta soak up some cash.




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