Very non-traditional

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jmjm
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Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:31 am

I am an engineer in my mid 30s with a master's degree in computer engineering from a 10-20 USN rank program and a bachelor's in engineering from a reputable top international program. I work with one of the largest american semiconductor companies as a senior engineer and have worked with a few semiconductor companies during the last 10 years in the profession.

Do I have any shot at top law (jd) programs, or is my gpa/age factor can't be compensated for with a high lsat?

Stats: UG gpa: 3.2/4 (top 30% of the class) MS gpa: 3.5, gmat 730, International

ze2151
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby ze2151 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:42 am

sweet lord, why on earth do you want to go to law school?

i hope you're a troll. if you're serious, i don't understand.

that said, i know of one school that is willing to accept students based on gmat scores....

hooray, rutgers-camden! looks like you may have found another student. actually, op, i bet if you apply right now, you'd get accepted.

jmjm
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:05 am

I'm not looking for a school that accepts gmat as I plan to take lsat. Sorry if it was confusing in my original post. Yes it was a serious post. I guess that makes me a non traditional career switcher.

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El_Sol
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby El_Sol » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:27 am

Why would he be a troll? ... If his career is not fulfilling, why not switch? Life is short. Obviously, it all depends on which schools he gets into, but if he scores 170+ and attends at a T-14 splitter friendly school, I don't see why it would be a wrong decision.

Come back with an LSAT score and people will be able to give you better advice though.

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Nova
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Nova » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:08 pm

A high LSAT, 170+, will give you a shot at GULC, NU, and UVA.
A 166+ would give you a shot at some T30s.
Your chances are certainly dependent on your LSAT score.
Your age wont hurt you. Your GPA will, because its going to be a drag on the median at every good school.

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Kring345
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Kring345 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:27 pm

ze2151 wrote:sweet lord, why on earth do you want to go to law school?

i hope you're a troll. if you're serious, i don't understand.

This is one of the things that annoys the shit out of me on TLS. Everyone thinks that law is an awful career with horrible job prospects. It may indeed be a very rough job market, bur what field isn't it? And wtf do people who despise law hangout on TLS for? For the last 5000 years, lawyer has been a respectable job and it will continue to be for the next 5000 years. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. Maybe the OP doesn't like his fucking job?! But engineers are wayyyyyyy better of than lawyers, so that's impossible. STFU you're probably like 23 years old and have never experienced life outside of school or summer jobs. If that's not the case, then I'm confused by you're naivete.
Last edited by Kring345 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ze2151
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby ze2151 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:30 pm

Kring345 wrote:
ze2151 wrote:sweet lord, why on earth do you want to go to law school?

i hope you're a troll. if you're serious, i don't understand.

This is one of the things that annoys the shit out of me on TLS. Everyone thinks that law is an awful career with horrible job prospects. It may indeed be a very rough job market, bur what field isn't it? And wtf do people who despise law hangout on TLS for? For the last 5000 years, lawyer has been a respectable job and it will continue to be for the next 5 years. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. Maybe the OP doesn't like his fucking job?! But engineers are wayyyyyyy better of than lawyers, so that's impossible. STFU you're probably like 23 years old and have never experienced life outside of school or summer jobs. If that's not the case, then I'm confused by you're naivete.


how far along are you in school?

edit: judging from your profile, you haven't started school yet, so i will take all your posts with a grain of salt and not hold anything against you. and also, thank you very sincerely for your service.

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haus
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby haus » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:39 pm

ze2151 wrote:you're adorable, kring. how far along are you in school?

Ahh, how cute you sound, how far along are you in life?

ze2151
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby ze2151 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:42 pm

this is the newest TLS trope. anyone who tries to throw cold water on the party is accused of being a neophyte. i like this one. it makes me feel younger. does my opinion carry more weight if i tell you i'm 27 and worked three years prior to l.s. and kept a job through school so far? you mean you still want to disparage my comment? well, i'll be.

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Kring345
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Kring345 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:47 pm

ze2151 wrote:
Kring345 wrote:
ze2151 wrote:sweet lord, why on earth do you want to go to law school?

i hope you're a troll. if you're serious, i don't understand.

This is one of the things that annoys the shit out of me on TLS. Everyone thinks that law is an awful career with horrible job prospects. It may indeed be a very rough job market, bur what field isn't it? And wtf do people who despise law hangout on TLS for? For the last 5000 years, lawyer has been a respectable job and it will continue to be for the next 5 years. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. Maybe the OP doesn't like his fucking job?! But engineers are wayyyyyyy better of than lawyers, so that's impossible. STFU you're probably like 23 years old and have never experienced life outside of school or summer jobs. If that's not the case, then I'm confused by you're naivete.


how far along are you in school?

edit: judging from your profile, you haven't started school yet, so i will take all your posts with a grain of salt and not hold anything against you. and also, thank you very sincerely for your service.

You're welcome, and yes I start in fall. But I'm talking about having the maturity to realize that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side. Sometimes it's just as shit-colored and it may differ per person. Don't pretend to know the OP, his life, family, or future. He hasn't taken the LSAT yet, so he's prob just bored and curious on a Saturday morning. You need to give him the real down low, not the typical "OMFGGGG you have to work a lot of hours and do boring paperwork therefore life blows" mentality so common among the K-JD and even those out of college for 1-2 years.

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haus
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby haus » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:56 pm

ze2151 wrote:this is the newest TLS trope. anyone who tries to throw cold water on the party is accused of being a neophyte. i like this one. it makes me feel younger. does my opinion carry more weight if i tell you i'm 27 and worked three years prior to l.s. and kept a job through school so far? you mean you still want to disparage my comment? well, i'll be.

Wake me up when you do something interesting or useful. I am a former Marine (served in the early 90s), who after getting out of the Corps has built a career in IT/InfoSec, during the last 15 years I was able to pick up my Bachelors and Masters while working in a demanding field. I have done my handful of rounds with startups, held senior technical for Fortune 100 companies, and now manage a team for a Federal Agency.

With this in mind I would like to offer the suggestion that life and careers can likely be more convoluted that you may have experienced. But hey, what do I know...

jmjm
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:14 am

Nova wrote:A high LSAT, 170+, will give you a shot at GULC, NU, and UVA.
A 166+ would give you a shot at some T30s.
Your chances are certainly dependent on your LSAT score.
Your age wont hurt you. Your GPA will, because its going to be a drag on the median at every good school.


I read somewhere on this forum that so long after UG degree my ug/grad gpa will not matter either. True? Would not then a 175+ lsat at my age then get admission to almost any school.

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KevinP
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby KevinP » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:57 am

Your UG GPA will matter a lot, especially amidst the current decline in applicants (fewer applicants have historically made law schools more numbers obsessed). The reason your UG GPA matters so much is because that is what U.S. News uses to calculate its rankings. Your grad GPA, on the other hand, will be seen as a soft at best and will most likely not matter.

You are essentially an autoreject at HYS, and probably out at CC, regardless of LSAT. Scoring in the 170s can still open many doors in the T14 for you. Your best bets are NU, UVA, and GTown.

@ze2151
As an engineer going into law school, I will say that law school can still make financial sense. Law is inherently more risky because of the debt load, but biglaw + exit options can give you a huge return on investment and can increase your earning potential far more than working as an engineer ever could.

jmjm
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:19 am

KevinP wrote:Your UG GPA will matter a lot, especially amidst the current decline in applicants (fewer applicants have historically made law schools more numbers obsessed). The reason your UG GPA matters so much is because that is what U.S. News uses to calculate its rankings. Your grad GPA, on the other hand, will be seen as a soft at best and will most likely not matter.

You are essentially an autoreject at HYS, and probably out at CC, regardless of LSAT. Scoring in the 170s can still open many doors in the T14 for you. Your best bets are NU, UVA, and GTown.

@ze2151
As an engineer going into law school, I will say that law school can still make financial sense. Law is inherently more risky because of the debt load, but biglaw + exit options can give you a huge return on investment and can increase your earning potential far more than working as an engineer ever could.


myLSN.info provides a non zero acceptance rate for a top college for my projected stats. The gpa floor is not a hard cutoff it appears.

Is only ug gpa and not grad gpa pertinent for law school admission; how do schools look at gpa in science/eng majors in foreign universities? My ug college had a 0-10 scale for gpa with a different grading curve.

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Nova
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Nova » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:14 am

jmjm wrote:myLSN.info provides a non zero acceptance rate for a top college for my projected stats. The gpa floor is not a hard cutoff it appears.

Is only ug gpa and not grad gpa pertinent for law school admission; how do schools look at gpa in science/eng majors in foreign universities? My ug college had a 0-10 scale for gpa with a different grading curve.


Only your cumulative undergrad GPA, more specifically your LSAC GPA, counts towards ranking, and thus is what schools care about. Your masters is a soft.

If one earned their BA/BS at a foreign university, they will not have an LSAC GPA, and their admissions chances would depend much more on the LSAT.

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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:42 pm

Nova wrote:
jmjm wrote:myLSN.info provides a non zero acceptance rate for a top college for my projected stats. The gpa floor is not a hard cutoff it appears.

Is only ug gpa and not grad gpa pertinent for law school admission; how do schools look at gpa in science/eng majors in foreign universities? My ug college had a 0-10 scale for gpa with a different grading curve.


Only your cumulative undergrad GPA, more specifically your LSAC GPA, counts towards ranking, and thus is what schools care about. Your masters is a soft.

If one earned their BA/BS at a foreign university, they will not have an LSAC GPA, and their admissions chances would depend much more on the LSAT.


This means that for someone with my profile, LSAT most likely is going to be the deciding factor (and not the UG gpa or age as stated above by KevinP) even for the most hard to get in schools. May be the information available on lawschoolnumbers is applicable only to folks with a LSDAS gpa. Since the law school admission process seems to be very cold number-oriented (unlike MBA admissions), I believe there has to be some definitive guidelines in regards with foreign ug gpa.

Specifically,
1. What would be the weight distribution among LSAT, foreign ug gpa, and age?
2. Since my grad is US school (unlike the ug) would that change the gpa weight computation?

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Nova
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Nova » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:51 pm

jmjm wrote:
Specifically,
1. What would be the weight distribution among LSAT, foreign ug gpa, and age?
2. Since my grad is US school (unlike the ug) would that change the gpa weight computation?



I would estimate about 75/10/0 and another 15% for PS/DS/LOR. I think that since you have no LGPA, you will likely be treated as having a median LGPA, since that is the affect you would have on their LGPA median (none). Which is not bad.

2. No.

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KevinP
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby KevinP » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:18 pm

jmjm wrote:
Nova wrote:
jmjm wrote:myLSN.info provides a non zero acceptance rate for a top college for my projected stats. The gpa floor is not a hard cutoff it appears.

Is only ug gpa and not grad gpa pertinent for law school admission; how do schools look at gpa in science/eng majors in foreign universities? My ug college had a 0-10 scale for gpa with a different grading curve.


Only your cumulative undergrad GPA, more specifically your LSAC GPA, counts towards ranking, and thus is what schools care about. Your masters is a soft.

If one earned their BA/BS at a foreign university, they will not have an LSAC GPA, and their admissions chances would depend much more on the LSAT.


This means that for someone with my profile, LSAT most likely is going to be the deciding factor (and not the UG gpa or age as stated above by KevinP) even for the most hard to get in schools. May be the information available on lawschoolnumbers is applicable only to folks with a LSDAS gpa. Since the law school admission process seems to be very cold number-oriented (unlike MBA admissions), I believe there has to be some definitive guidelines in regards with foreign ug gpa.

Specifically,
1. What would be the weight distribution among LSAT, foreign ug gpa, and age?
2. Since my grad is US school (unlike the ug) would that change the gpa weight computation?

I missed that your UG GPA was from a foreign institution. That would change the calculus quite a bit.

jmjm
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby jmjm » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:29 pm

KevinP wrote:
jmjm wrote:
Nova wrote:
jmjm wrote:myLSN.info provides a non zero acceptance rate for a top college for my projected stats. The gpa floor is not a hard cutoff it appears.

Is only ug gpa and not grad gpa pertinent for law school admission; how do schools look at gpa in science/eng majors in foreign universities? My ug college had a 0-10 scale for gpa with a different grading curve.


Only your cumulative undergrad GPA, more specifically your LSAC GPA, counts towards ranking, and thus is what schools care about. Your masters is a soft.

If one earned their BA/BS at a foreign university, they will not have an LSAC GPA, and their admissions chances would depend much more on the LSAT.


This means that for someone with my profile, LSAT most likely is going to be the deciding factor (and not the UG gpa or age as stated above by KevinP) even for the most hard to get in schools. May be the information available on lawschoolnumbers is applicable only to folks with a LSDAS gpa. Since the law school admission process seems to be very cold number-oriented (unlike MBA admissions), I believe there has to be some definitive guidelines in regards with foreign ug gpa.

Specifically,
1. What would be the weight distribution among LSAT, foreign ug gpa, and age?
2. Since my grad is US school (unlike the ug) would that change the gpa weight computation?

I missed that your UG GPA was from a foreign institution. That would change the calculus quite a bit.


In that case an lsat of above 175 will give anyone with my profile a strong chance at H (going by lawschoolnumbers and using H's median gpa in place of my ug gpa). Sounds too good to be true.
Is there website like myLSN.info with foreign ug admissions statistics?

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby deadpoetnsp » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:43 pm

jmjm wrote:In that case an lsat of above 175 will give anyone with my profile a strong chance at H (going by lawschoolnumbers and using H's median gpa in place of my ug gpa). Sounds too good to be true.
Is there website like myLSN.info with foreign ug admissions statistics?


I'm a 1L with a foreign BS and a US MS. Your foreign UG GPA will count as a zero/blank/null for admissions purposes. You can consider it to be a 3.3 (B+ average) since it neither helps nor hurts law school ranks. Your US grad GPA will also count for nothing. At the most, it will be a soft. But not important.

The only thing that will count will be your LSAT. Get the best LSAT you can, and apply to schools where your LSAT is higher than the 75-percentile LSAT. That will result in good scholarships. I applied to a large number of schools (>15), and the LSAT was the only predictor of my admissions and scholarships.

If you want to use Law School Numbers, plug in a 3.3 to get the most accurate results. Using the schools median GPA, as you did with H above, will lead to wrong predictions. Your age won't hurt you.

PM me if you want to know anything else.

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Nova
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby Nova » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 am

deadpoetnsp wrote:. Your foreign UG GPA will count as a zero/blank/null for admissions purposes. You can consider it to be a 3.3 (B+ average) since it neither helps nor hurts law school ranks.

If you want to use Law School Numbers, plug in a 3.3 to get the most accurate results. Using the schools median GPA, as you did with H above, will lead to wrong predictions. Your age won't hurt you.


I agree with everything in your post except the 3.3 part. Certainly, having been through a cycle yourself with a forign UGPA, you have much more personal experiance than I. However a 3.3 is shit relative to the top law schools. Not helping or hurting their ranks = median. IMO, 3.3 would give a conservative and rather pessimistic prediction. plugging in an A-, 3.66, would probably result in more accurate chances.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:15 am

Nova wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:. Your foreign UG GPA will count as a zero/blank/null for admissions purposes. You can consider it to be a 3.3 (B+ average) since it neither helps nor hurts law school ranks.

If you want to use Law School Numbers, plug in a 3.3 to get the most accurate results. Using the schools median GPA, as you did with H above, will lead to wrong predictions. Your age won't hurt you.


I agree with everything in your post except the 3.3 part. Certainly, having been through a cycle yourself with a forign UGPA, you have much more personal experiance than I. However a 3.3 is shit relative to the top law schools. Not helping or hurting their ranks = median. IMO, 3.3 would give a conservative and rather pessimistic prediction. plugging in an A-, 3.66, would probably result in more accurate chances.


Mathematically, you are absolutely correct. But what happened with me was I was not even wait-listed at "strong-consider" (using school medians) schools, but flat-out denied. Maybe since the T14s are at the extremes of the bell curve, I think the law of averages enters the twilight zone. Or my interpretation of consider/strong consider as "waitlist" is incorrect. Or my overall application was weird or something :)

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nygrrrl
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby nygrrrl » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:21 am

Your LSAT score will be the big factor. Your grad degreee will not be counted (except as a soft) and your age is completely not a factor. (There are lots of mid 30s law students. Lots of them.)

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JCFindley
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby JCFindley » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:31 am

nygrrrl wrote:Your LSAT score will be the big factor. Your grad degreee will not be counted (except as a soft) and your age is completely not a factor. (There are lots of mid 30s law students. Lots of them.)


There are even some in their forties....

$$$$$$
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Re: Very non-traditional

Postby $$$$$$ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:35 am

jmjm wrote:I am an engineer in my mid 30s with a master's degree in computer engineering from a 10-20 USN rank program and a bachelor's in engineering from a reputable top international program. I work with one of the largest american semiconductor companies as a senior engineer and have worked with a few semiconductor companies during the last 10 years in the profession.

Do I have any shot at top law (jd) programs, or is my gpa/age factor can't be compensated for with a high lsat?

Stats: UG gpa: 3.2/4 (top 30% of the class) MS gpa: 3.5, gmat 730, International


While I totally beleive that if you get a 170+ and get into a T14 school, you'll be fine for an IP firm job pretty much no matter what your grades are (I know straight through engineers with terrible grades that got firm jobs), I think you may want to look into business school with that gmat score and that work experience.

SInce you are obviously a smart person, I think getting into a T14 or T10 is not out of reach at all, by why go through the hard work when you have a pretty nice ticket in front of you?




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