3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

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MaxLSH123
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3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby MaxLSH123 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:42 pm

Hello,

I'd really appreciate advice on whether I should retake the LSAT and what my chances are at the T14 schools. I'll have worked for 2 years as a paralegal at a top law firm, I have strong college ECs, a 3.75 GPA at one of the lower ranked ivies and a 167 LSAT score. I see this LSAT score as a problem. I was hoping to get in the 170s, and had in PTs before, but my PT median was 167 so this score isn't really a surprise.

I understand this situation isn't some super splitter or unique tale of intrigue, but I do really appreciate any advice you can give! Thank you!
Max

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Yeah, retake.

MaxLSH123
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby MaxLSH123 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:12 pm

Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?

TMC116
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby TMC116 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:17 pm

MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?


Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception

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acrossthelake
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:20 pm

I can think of absolutely no reason as to why you shouldn't retake. The ones you've listed aren't really legitimate. A 167 once or a 167 twice both are pretty poor for your aspirations. I also think you're vastly overestimating your chances. But, my sense of the cycles is out of date. I suppose it's less competitive now.

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Nova
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby Nova » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:43 pm

If you are T14 or bust, of course you should retake in October. You are not a lock at Georgetown or Cornell either.

MaxLSH123
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby MaxLSH123 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:54 pm

Thanks for the advice. My friends who applied last cycle had exceptional stats, and they're the ones giving me advice, so they may be overly positive about the whole process.

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buckilaw
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby buckilaw » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:00 pm

TMC116 wrote:
MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?


Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception


This is false. OP, I had stats very, very similar to yours and I got into two T14s. You are not by any means locked out of the T14, especially if you apply ED. That said, if you could retake and gain 2-3 points you'd be in a much better position.

MaxLSH123
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby MaxLSH123 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:10 pm

Thanks buckilaw, congrats on the acceptances

potl
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby potl » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:11 pm

Are you an underrepresented minority? If you are, then your chances may be a bit better than you think.

If you're not, then I don't think your chances are particularly strong at any of the T14. As you indicated, Georgetown and Cornell are the most likely to bite, but even there your odds probably stand at 50:50. You may have a small shot at Northwestern or Berkeley, but I suspect that Northwestern prefers to stock up on 170 LSAT candidates and Berkeley would probably want a higher GPA.

Of the remaining T14, your GPA is below median at everywhere other than NYU and Columbia, both of which have LSAT 25th percentiles that are far above 167. Your LSAT is below median at all of the T14, and hovering at the 25th percentile for many. As a general rule, you need to be above median for at least one of your GPA or LSAT in order to be considered competitive.

As everyone else has suggested, you should retake in order to maximize your chances. However, you should also realize that your chances only become significantly better if you score a 170+ on a retake (not because it's 2+ points better than your old score, but because many schools seem to have a 170 LSAT threshold). If you think you're only likely to score between 167-169 on your retake, it's probably not worth it.

ajaxconstructions
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby ajaxconstructions » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:16 pm

LOL @ being 100% lock into Cornell/Gtown when you are below the LSAT median.

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buckilaw
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby buckilaw » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:23 pm

potl wrote:Are you an underrepresented minority? If you are, then your chances may be a bit better than you think.

If you're not, then I don't think your chances are particularly strong at any of the T14. As you indicated, Georgetown and Cornell are the most likely to bite, but even there your odds probably stand at 50:50. You may have a small shot at Northwestern or Berkeley, but I suspect that Northwestern prefers to stock up on 170 LSAT candidates and Berkeley would probably want a higher GPA.

Of the remaining T14, your GPA is below median at everywhere other than NYU and Columbia, both of which have LSAT 25th percentiles that are far above 167. Your LSAT is below median at all of the T14, and hovering at the 25th percentile for many. As a general rule, you need to be above median for at least one of your GPA or LSAT in order to be considered competitive.

As everyone else has suggested, you should retake in order to maximize your chances. However, you should also realize that your chances only become significantly better if you score a 170+ on a retake (not because it's 2+ points better than your old score, but because many schools seem to have a 170 LSAT threshold). If you think you're only likely to score between 167-169 on your retake, it's probably not worth it.


Solid advice. Though if you apply as is I'd add that Michigan and Berkley are also worth considering because they tend to be more holistic than other T14s.

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desiballa21
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby desiballa21 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:01 pm

buckilaw wrote:
TMC116 wrote:
MaxLSH123 wrote:Thanks. I've heard you have to get at least two points higher, it looks worse the more times you take it and of course it's a huge dedication of time and effort, so I'm just approaching the option carefully. I'm leaning towards retaking. At this point I think my current chances are:

100%: Georgetown
Cornell

50% (my current goals given my scores): Northwestern
Duke

20%:Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley

10%: NYU
Columbia
Chicago

Disagree?


Yes. Cut all of those percentiles in half, at least. Duke and NU are a lot less likely than that. Do a search on LSN for non-URMs with your numbers and apps to the T14. It's ugly

167 is no man's land for T14. Without a really really high GPA, you're locked out of the T14. Cornell *might* be an exception


This is false. OP, I had stats very, very similar to yours and I got into two T14s. You are not by any means locked out of the T14, especially if you apply ED. That said, if you could retake and gain 2-3 points you'd be in a much better position.


Yeah, that's bullshit. Multiple friends w/ pretty much exact same #s in at Michigan, Cornell, and Gtown

Real Madrid
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:49 pm

You have a solid chance at Cornell and maybe 50/50 odds at GULC. You also have maybe a bit under 50/50 shot at Michigan and perhaps an outside shot at Berkeley or NU.

You have no chance at any other T14 unless you raise your LSAT. Get a 170 and you'll be in at UVA as they are complete and utter median whores. You will also have a good shot at Penn.

Probably need 171+ before you can start talking about Columbia or Chicago.

I do think you're in at Cornell, though they might not get back to you with an admissions offer right away.

confusedlaw
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby confusedlaw » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:55 am

3.7 167 here reject at gtown umich uva columbia
wait list at cornell
i wouldn't say 100 percent any where

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soj
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby soj » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:34 am

Search on lawschoolnumbers.com

Your chances are not that great. Your only realistic shots at T14 are Michigan, Cornell, Berkeley, and Georgetown, and you'd do much better if you retook.

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top30man
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby top30man » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:42 am

soj wrote:Search on lawschoolnumbers.com

Your chances are not that great. Your only realistic shots at T14 are Michigan, Cornell, Berkeley, and Georgetown, and you'd do much better if you retook.

I agree. Retake. Even two points would make a huge difference.

rad lulz
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:48 am

Image

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inthebeginning
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby inthebeginning » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:41 am

But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

TMC116
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby TMC116 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:46 am

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?


Nothing

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top30man
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby top30man » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:02 am

inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?

It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.

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Nova
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby Nova » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:03 am

TMC116 wrote:
inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?


Nothing


top30man wrote:It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.


TITCR. Basically no down side except lost time/cash. The upside could be exponential.

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inthebeginning
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby inthebeginning » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:18 am

Nova wrote:
TMC116 wrote:
inthebeginning wrote:But what happens if he retakes and pulls a 165?


Nothing


top30man wrote:It won't matter. Schools only care about the highest score.


TITCR. Basically no down side except lost time/cash. The upside could be exponential.


The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?

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Nova
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby Nova » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:25 am

inthebeginning wrote:The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?


Despite what schools claim, everyone whores themselves to USNWR
Last edited by Nova on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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inthebeginning
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Re: 3.75 at Ivy, 167, strong softs. Chances? Retake?

Postby inthebeginning » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:26 am

flem wrote:
inthebeginning wrote:The Michigan Admissions blog has a post saying it could ruin an otherwise flawless application. What if you are currently at median. How do you know they really just look at the best?


They all say shit like this. Many schools still say they average scores. There's no evidence of that being true.


And what is the evidence of it NOT being true?




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