Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

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rbkl
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Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby rbkl » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:39 am

rbkl wrote:BG: Asian, Male, Junior at a top 20 undergraduate business program. 2 Majors, 1 Co Major, 2 Minors
Softs: I have leadership, research, an internship at a Big Four Firm for their technology consulting arm this summer, and working on a big volunteering gig (being the national collegiate director) starting the beginning of my senior year.
GPA: 4.00 UGPA / 4.09 LSDAS GPA

** Here is my info quoted from another thread for reference.

Alright so I just took the June test, and my nerves got to me. I think I did fine for the LR LR LG sections, but RC was honestly the worst I have ever done, even on any practice exam -- except maybe the diagnostic. Apart from being super depressed, I am really seriously considering cancelling the score and retaking it in October. I think here are some important facts:

-My averages going into the test were around 175 for each practice test (even higher for PT's before #40)
-This was the worst RC ever, mostly because I was really nervous and it was the first section. I barely had time to even read the last passage. I also had a terrible night's sleep on the night before.
-I think my range will be anywhere from 165 to 171 for this test
-I know I CAN do much better in October, I am not sure if I WILL of course
-I am really only interested in going HYSCCN after I graduate, otherwise I probably would go into consulting / business (possibly try for law school again in 2 years)
-I feel like the bulk of my studying is done, I think with four more months, I can probably average closer to 180 on PT's. Of course, that doesn't mean I will completely neglect studying by any means.
-In terms of having multiple LSAT scores: Harvard, Columbia, NYU averages / Yale is holistic / Chicago takes the highest / Stanford is unreported


Soo my questions are..

1) How bad does a cancellation look? (Again, mostly in the eyes of HYSCCN) Will I need to explain it?

2) Can I still be among the very early applicants if I take the test in October? probably not for the December test?

3) The biggest reason I want to cancel is simply the fact that the majority of my target schools averages the scores, and a single bad score could create tremendous problems. Should I cancel?



Thank you so much in advanced. I have already read countless articles, which really lean to the side of not cancelling, but I think my situation is somewhat different.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:57 am

1) How bad does a cancellation look? (Again, mostly in the eyes of HYSCCN) Will I need to explain it?

It's fine, but so is retaking. I think only Yale will be an issue there, even S/H are pretty lenient about retaking these days (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, anyone).

2) Can I still be among the very early applicants if I take the test in October? probably not for the December test?

October - most definitely. Make sure everything else in your app is submitted and finished first, and then submit everything the day after scores come out. December is late though, and will likely have an impact on your cycle.

3) The biggest reason I want to cancel is simply the fact that the majority of my target schools averages the scores, and a single bad score could create tremendous problems. Should I cancel?

Pretty much no schools average scores anymore, honestly. I mean, I didn't look too much into YSH, but I know for sure CCN doesn't average. Check out lawschoolnumbers.com and compare/contrast retakers' stats with non-retakers', it should at least give you an idea of what the impact is (but I'm pretty sure you'll find there really isn't one).

In my opinion, you should just wait out your score. Everyone thinks they've done terribly after a test - sometimes you might be surprised. And if not, you can always retake. On the other hand, if you actually did well this time around, you save yourself the $$, stress, and time of a retake.

Ultimately, it's up to you though. Both options have their advantages and disadvantages.

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Samara
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Samara » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:12 am

+1 to all of the above. No schools average anymore and a cancellation or retake should have little to no material impact on your chances.

Why do you think you screwed up the RC section? Is there a clearly identifiable reason, i.e. ran out of time, struggled with a passage? If not, I wouldn't cancel. It's so hard to gauge your performance based only on how you feel you did, especially on a real test.

rbkl
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby rbkl » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:45 am

Thanks a ton for the responses!

Yeah I ran out of time on the RC. It was just one of those "oh shit" moments and I honestly felt like I was reading hieroglyphics. I am sure I am being over-dramatic, but I truly do believe that I would get no where near my average on the PT's.

If I may ask, where are you guys getting this "no schools average anymore"? :?

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Samara
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Samara » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:26 am

rbkl wrote:Thanks a ton for the responses!

Yeah I ran out of time on the RC. It was just one of those "oh shit" moments and I honestly felt like I was reading hieroglyphics. I am sure I am being over-dramatic, but I truly do believe that I would get no where near my average on the PT's.

If I may ask, where are you guys getting this "no schools average anymore"? :?

From LSN and people I know. Also, only your highest score gets reported to USNWR, so there is every incentive to evaluate applicants based on their highest score. And with fewer applications these past and upcoming cycles, even the very top schools can only afford to be so picky.

Is it possible that the app with a 174 gets picked over a 171/177? Sure, but there is no evidence that this happens on any sort of systematic basis. It sounds like you have solid work opportunities lined up, so worst case scenario is that you get some solid WE and come back with an even stronger app.

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Lovely Ludwig Van
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Lovely Ludwig Van » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:27 am

I would cancel. A cancel on your first score means next to nothing as long as you can hit your mark on the second score. For some reason or another, the recent June RC sections have been really hard. I took the test last June and had the same problem: the first 4 sections were a breeze, I felt like I was knocking it out of the ballpark, then when I got to RC in the 5th section, the level of difficulty unexpectedly spiked and everything completely fell apart. I canceled and decided to retry for October, which worked out in the end for me. IMO, the October tests are much more "standardized" than the June tests and less likely to have a freak section because more people take the test in October.

As far as HYSCCN (and I realize this is a complete subtle-brag), I got into H this year with 3 scores - 170, cancel, 173. The law school application process is turning into much more of a buyer's market these days, even at the top schools. With your pedigree, you will likely be fine at CCN and have a good shot at one of HYS as long as you can hit your target score on the next try; whether you decide to cancel this time around will not make that big of an impact, IMO, as there is ample evidence on TLS and LSN that CCNH (I don't know about YS) place far greater weight on your highest score as opposed to your average.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:26 pm

I have no opinion as to whether or not you should cancel your score, but a cancel will not harm your chances at any law school while an unusually large discrepancy between two LSAT scores will require an addendum.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby UtilityMonster » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:02 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have no opinion as to whether or not you should cancel your score, but a cancel will not harm your chances at any law school while an unusually large discrepancy between two LSAT scores will require an addendum.


This. I had a cancel and I don't think it impacted my applications at all. I didn't write an addendum about it, either.

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dowu
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby dowu » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:18 pm

:shock: :shock:
Last edited by dowu on Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samara
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Samara » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:20 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:This thread is relevant to your interests: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

In that thread, it says that Harvard and Columbia average the LSAT scores.

Good luck!

That article is outdated. Evidence points to them no longer averaging.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:58 pm

You don't HAVE to write an addendum. I jumped 8 points between my first and final LSAT score and I didn't write an addendum.

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dowu
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby dowu » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:00 pm

Samara wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:This thread is relevant to your interests: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

In that thread, it says that Harvard and Columbia average the LSAT scores.

Good luck!

That article is outdated. Evidence points to them no longer averaging.


Prove it!

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:03 pm

nmop_apisdn wrote:
Samara wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:This thread is relevant to your interests: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

In that thread, it says that Harvard and Columbia average the LSAT scores.

Good luck!

That article is outdated. Evidence points to them no longer averaging.


Prove it!

Just check LSN, bro.

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dowu
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby dowu » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:19 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:
Samara wrote:
nmop_apisdn wrote:This thread is relevant to your interests: http://www.top-law-schools.com/retaking-the-lsat.html

In that thread, it says that Harvard and Columbia average the LSAT scores.

Good luck!

That article is outdated. Evidence points to them no longer averaging.


Prove it!

Just check LSN, bro.


Finnnnuh.

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TheThriller
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby TheThriller » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:25 pm

Why not go to law school in Bloomington? :D

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80eight
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby 80eight » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:47 pm

You sound like me, so I'm going to advise you not to cancel.

I took in Oct. 2010, came out feeling like shit and stressed about canceling. LG was my last section. I usually went -1 or -0 on LG, but I misread a rule on the last game, ran out of time and had to blind guess on 3 questions. I felt okay/average the other sections-- none of them seemed like a slam dunk, but none were horrible either. Ending poorly on LG seemed a bad omen to me, and I have a 3.5x GPA so I definitely wanted 170+. I didn't cancel, and scored 172 (with -3 on games.) I wasn't shooting for HYS because of my GPA, but I was also averaging lower than you on my practice tests.

I ended up not having to retake, so I can't really advise you on that, but I'd try to think calmly think about how you usually feel after standardized tests. If you can usually read yourself pretty well, then maybe cancel. If you're a neurotic lunatic like me, and overreact to everything then...I'd roll the dice and stick with the score-- that's what I did, and I'm happy with my decision.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:50 pm

80eight wrote:You sound like me, so I'm going to advise you not to cancel.


+1. I left the June 2011 LSAT thinking I may have gotten slaughtered by RC, and not only did I do fine on it but I ended up scoring higher than I had on any PT.

Also, I retook, went up 12 points, and got into CLS without an addendum.

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kwais
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby kwais » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:05 pm

schools don't average. Evidence and common sense say so. When a school says they do, take it like Folger's saying "the best part of waking up is Folger's in your cup." Is that the best part of waking up? No. Is their coffee crap? Yes. But does it make them look better to say this? Yes. Schools don't want to say "we are median whores so we don't reward those who work hard and kill the LSAT the first time." This would be like saying "Folger's. It's cheaper than Starbucks and tastes that way too!"

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
80eight wrote:You sound like me, so I'm going to advise you not to cancel.


+1. I left the June 2011 LSAT thinking I may have gotten slaughtered by RC, and not only did I do fine on it but I ended up scoring higher than I had on any PT.

Also, I retook, went up 12 points, and got into CLS without an addendum.

+1 don't cancel

After last October's test one of the TLSers created a thread just like this telling us how bad she wanted to cancel. She thought she bombed it and was literally really close to canceling from the impression I got. We talked her out of it and come to find out she got a 173. Long story short: you never know what you really got, your emotions are running high, and it'd be a shame if you canceled a 173.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:49 pm

kwais wrote:schools don't average. Evidence and common sense say so. When a school says they do, take it like Folger's saying "the best part of waking up is Folger's in your cup." Is that the best part of waking up? No. Is their coffee crap? Yes. But does it make them look better to say this? Yes. Schools don't want to say "we are median whores so we don't reward those who work hard and kill the LSAT the first time." This would be like saying "Folger's. It's cheaper than Starbucks and tastes that way too!"

you're a funny dude lol. Kwais the Cynic haha

rbkl
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby rbkl » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:23 am

Thanks for the responses! I really appreciate the input...

Here is the choice I am stuck between, and please correct me if you think I am misinterpreting.


To cancel:
-I don't get to see the score
-I may not ruin my chances at YS (which are 2nd and 3rd on my wish list)
-I know I can score HIGH and in my target range, I just need a good test day
-My gut feeling says it was an awful test, and usually I can gauge a good and bad PT in the same manner

Not to cancel:
-I get to see the score, it might be better than I think
-HCCN seems like they wouldn't penalize too much for a bad score
-I may never have to do another LSAT problem




From my perspective, I am pretty sure I can hit the target score that I am looking for. My practice tests averages are right around that corner, and with more time I can only improve. Though I don't prefer spending more time on the LSAT, I am totally still willing to do this all over again in October.

Additionally, law school is really HYSCCN or bust for me, and if I only got CCN, I would still debate greatly on whether or not I even want to go. I am just too scared about the post-graduation situation with law schools at the moment. My concern is if I keep a bad score, if that greatly hinders my YS chances, then it is effectively removing 2/3 of the schools I would go for sure (HYS), and 1/3 of the schools that I would consider (HYSCCN).

I am going to do some more research on how YS looks at retakes, but I can't seem to find out how to find multiple LSAT scores on LSN (any help would great haha). For me, I just really don't see the net benefit in possibly getting a good score (especially on a very terrible gut feeling) over studying marginally within the next 4 months. Is there another obvious benefit of cancelling that I am missing?

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Samara
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Samara » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:54 am

I think you're greatly overstating the value of YSHCCN, unless you're dead set on academia or clerking, but anyhoo...

They are not going to care if you retake. If you think you scored in the range of 165-171, that's only a couple of questions away from what you need for YSH. If you are super depressed over your perceived performance on one section of the LSAT, something tells me you just might be underestimating your score. You don't have a concrete reason to believe you underperformed, so it seems silly to cancel.

And get some damn perspective! Oh, it's so sad, you might have to settle for the fourth best law school in the country. Or, horror of horrors, you'll only get into the seventh best law school! Of course, that would be beneath you, so instead you'll just get a high-paying consulting job. You really have it tough. I would be "really sad" too if I were in your shoes.

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HBBJohnStamos
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby HBBJohnStamos » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:29 am

flem wrote:
Samara wrote:I think you're greatly overstating the value of YSHCCN, unless you're dead set on academia or clerking, but anyhoo...

They are not going to care if you retake. If you think you scored in the range of 165-171, that's only a couple of questions away from what you need for YSH. If you are super depressed over your perceived performance on one section of the LSAT, something tells me you just might be underestimating your score. You don't have a concrete reason to believe you underperformed, so it seems silly to cancel.

And get some damn perspective! Oh, it's so sad, you might have to settle for the fourth best law school in the country. Or, horror of horrors, you'll only get into the seventh best law school! Of course, that would be beneath you, so instead you'll just get a high-paying consulting job. You really have it tough. I would be "really sad" too if I were in your shoes.


lol this

Your sense of entitlement is obnoxious broheim

But bro, Penn is just not worth going to :roll: :lol:

Taus11
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby Taus11 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:19 pm

Lol this is pathetic. Also you don't just walk out and land a sick finance/consulting gig. My friends are working their asses off this summer hoping to get offers back while you're worrying about whether Harvard averages or not. Like seriously, this is your decision, but get some perspective! Do your best, but don't be so damn neurotic

rbkl
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Re: Sigh, really sad / need advice on cancellation

Postby rbkl » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:41 pm

Haha, I appreciate the comments and I am sure that I sound like a bit of a d-bag. I didn't truly mean to come off that way.

I guess I just really didn't want to screw up my admissions process. I have worked hard for my GPA and networked my ass off to land my internship. Many people have told me that they would do anything to be in my situation, at least in terms of GPA -- and I don't really want the LSAT to ruin anything. Honestly, I really fucked over my SAT scores (hence being at the school that I am at now). Since UG, I have really tried hard to fix that. I really do think I have a good chance at those top schools. I apologize if I have offended anyone about the other schools, but I have just heard too many horror stories, which is why I am T6 or bust. This could definitely be the wrong mentality and please feel free to offer your opinion.

And you are right. I shouldn't be sad. I am being over dramatic and at best I am just facing another obstacle. It sucks to have to possibly re-take, but that's nothing compared to what other people are dealing with. I do need to be put in place.

Anyways, I am still looking for advice. Do you think my S and Y chances wouldnt be too hurt even with a potential 165?




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