2.75 170

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flops89
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2.75 170

Postby flops89 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:51 pm

2.75 Mechanical engineering at top 20 UG. 170 LSAT. Two years w/e in engineering. Non URM. My grades addendum won't be that compelling; I'll just say that I worked full-time through UG and have an upward trend.

Any chance at Penn, UVA, NU, or GULC?

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Dr. Filth
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby Dr. Filth » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:56 pm

Do you think you can bump up the LSAT even a point or two? Bumping your score up over median at these schools would probably be huge.

flops89
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby flops89 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:00 pm

Dr. Filth wrote:Do you think you can bump up the LSAT even a point or two? Bumping your score up over median at these schools would probably be huge.


Highest practice was 175 but it's too much of a time sink.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:05 pm

You have no shot at Penn and verryyyyy low shots at the other schools. Check out LSN for a little guidance, but even for a splitter you're on the low end of GPA AND LSAT. The other posters are right, bumping your score to a 173 would make you a lock at NU and GULC, and probably in at UVa off the WL or via ED.

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Dr. Filth
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby Dr. Filth » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:09 pm

flops89 wrote:
Dr. Filth wrote:Do you think you can bump up the LSAT even a point or two? Bumping your score up over median at these schools would probably be huge.


Highest practice was 175 but it's too much of a time sink.

Do you have one section where you are doing poorly? A 3 point bump might be as simple as one of the Bibles/Manhattan book + 10 PT's. Even if more time is required, it is definitely worth it to put the time in considering the two scenarios crumps described.

2012JayDee
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby 2012JayDee » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:15 pm

flops89 wrote:2.75 Mechanical engineering at top 20 UG. 170 LSAT. Two years w/e in engineering. Non URM. My grades addendum won't be that compelling; I'll just say that I worked full-time through UG and have an upward trend.

Any chance at Penn, UVA, NU, or GULC?



Your 2.75 in ME>>> Than a 3.75 in "Pre-Law" any day.
Boosting your LSAT from 170 to a 172 may or may not help. Less than a 3 point difference in scores is not actually seen as a difference. You're still in the 90th percentile or better. Looking at a bunch of statistics from LSN or wherever where people had super high GPA and 170+ and got rejected from Harvard or Yale isn't going to help you.
You have significantly different circumstances. Your major is a technical major which means you'll automatically qualify for jobs that 99% of the students in your law class wouldn't otherwise qualify for, and you've got actual work experience in your field.

If you had a bad fresh/sophomore year in UG because some early on engineering classes kicked your butt that's to be expected. But if you rocked the last couple of years with a B+ or better in your coursework that's also a major factor.

You should consider taking the Patent Bar ASAP.

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Nova
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby Nova » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:26 pm

2012JayDee wrote:
flops89 wrote:2.75 Mechanical engineering at top 20 UG. 170 LSAT. Two years w/e in engineering. Non URM. My grades addendum won't be that compelling; I'll just say that I worked full-time through UG and have an upward trend.

Any chance at Penn, UVA, NU, or GULC?



Your 2.75 in ME>>> Than a 3.75 in "Pre-Law" any day.
Boosting your LSAT from 170 to a 172 may or may not help. Less than a 3 point difference in scores is not actually seen as a difference. You're still in the 90th percentile or better.



So much wrong with this. First a 2.75 is NEVER better that a 3.75 when it comes to law school admission. Second, less than a 3 point difference is HUGE when it puts the test taker at or above the median. Third, 170 is ~97-98 percentile. A 163 is ~90th percentile. The difference between the two are extreame.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:31 pm

2012JayDee wrote:Your 2.75 in ME>>> Than a 3.75 in "Pre-Law" any day.
Boosting your LSAT from 170 to a 172 may or may not help. Less than a 3 point difference in scores is not actually seen as a difference. You're still in the 90th percentile or better. Looking at a bunch of statistics from LSN or wherever where people had super high GPA and 170+ and got rejected from Harvard or Yale isn't going to help you.
You have significantly different circumstances. Your major is a technical major which means you'll automatically qualify for jobs that 99% of the students in your law class wouldn't otherwise qualify for, and you've got actual work experience in your field.

If you had a bad fresh/sophomore year in UG because some early on engineering classes kicked your butt that's to be expected. But if you rocked the last couple of years with a B+ or better in your coursework that's also a major factor.

You should consider taking the Patent Bar ASAP.

1) Your first statement is simply not true, at least when it comes to LS applications. His major might bring some boost to the table, but in the end law schools don't give a flying rats ass. Theyr in it for the stats that can boost or maintain their ranking, and quite frankly OP's GPA is nowhere near that range. If we were talking 3.4 vs 3.7, then yes it might make a difference (even that's debatable) but a 2.75 vs 3.75? No way, bro.

2) Your statement about being in the 90th percentile is also misleading. Yes, technically even a 169 is 97th percentile, but the important thing to look at is medians for law schools. For the schools OP is looking at, he is WELL below the 25th percentile for the schools GPA numbers, but all those schools have 170 as their MEDIAN (50th percentile), not their '90th percentile'. What this means is that the OP has NO above-median stats, which makes him an incredibly weak candidate. 2-4 points on the LSAT would push him above the median for the LSAT, which would make his application far more compelling to the schools he's interested in.

3) LSN has quite a few splitters on there, so think twice before you dismiss it with some flippant comment. I had a 2.8/176 and can be found at http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/whimsical. You can also check out people like chill, ryemanhattan, and elizcbeth. While the data for splitters compard to high stats is lower, there's still a good amount of data to be seen.

4) Again, his major is a boost but not a game-changer. In the end, he's still going to have to hustle to get into any of the T14. Its not impossible, but he's certainly not a shoo-in, and its a disservice to him if someone gives him false confidence and causes him to slack off/think he's safe. As a splitter, you're always going to have to work your ass off to get the best cycle you can get. Anyone who takes things for granted is gonna get screwed.

Successedtobreathe
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby Successedtobreathe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:14 am

Should of majored in liberal arts. You'd have a good chance everywhere outside HYS.


Don't you love how ass backwards law schools admissions is. Thank you USNEWS

Honestly though OP, I know how you feel. While I was taking calc 3 my girlfriend was taking math thinking as her quantitative requirement. Ironically, math thinking requires no math, just conversation about math. She loved to make me feel like shit because she had a 3.85 in communications, which is a joke major compared to any hard science or programming degree.

Think of it this way though, if you fail out of law school you can always rely on your degree to get you a good job. Most unconnected liberal arts majors can't say the same.
Last edited by Successedtobreathe on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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laxbrah420
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:18 am

I'd like to add that what 2012JayDee said is not correct.

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mindarmed
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby mindarmed » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:41 pm

Is there something you dislike about engineering work? I ask because I am a current UG engineering major that is displeased with the two engineering opportunities I've had thus far.

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Band A Long
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby Band A Long » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:45 pm

Successedtobreathe wrote:Should of majored in liberal arts. You'd have a good chance everywhere outside HYS.

:roll:

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thelawyler
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby thelawyler » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:56 pm

2012JayDee wrote:
flops89 wrote:2.75 Mechanical engineering at top 20 UG. 170 LSAT. Two years w/e in engineering. Non URM. My grades addendum won't be that compelling; I'll just say that I worked full-time through UG and have an upward trend.

Any chance at Penn, UVA, NU, or GULC?



Your 2.75 in ME>>> Than a 3.75 in "Pre-Law" any day.
Boosting your LSAT from 170 to a 172 may or may not help. Less than a 3 point difference in scores is not actually seen as a difference. You're still in the 90th percentile or better. Looking at a bunch of statistics from LSN or wherever where people had super high GPA and 170+ and got rejected from Harvard or Yale isn't going to help you.
You have significantly different circumstances. Your major is a technical major which means you'll automatically qualify for jobs that 99% of the students in your law class wouldn't otherwise qualify for, and you've got actual work experience in your field.

If you had a bad fresh/sophomore year in UG because some early on engineering classes kicked your butt that's to be expected. But if you rocked the last couple of years with a B+ or better in your coursework that's also a major factor.

You should consider taking the Patent Bar ASAP.


lol who the fuck is this guy?

No on the GPA.
No on the LSAT (OP, you can PM if you want to hear my story of what happened between this cycle and my last cycle. I increased 4 points)
No on major factor of upward trend (I did much better second half of college too at top5 school -- didn't mean shit)
Yes to Patent Bar.

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franklyscarlet
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby franklyscarlet » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:00 pm

Successedtobreathe wrote:Should of .


Twitch.

2012JayDee
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby 2012JayDee » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:32 pm

I'll concede the emphasis on GPA is much heavier than I gave it credibility for in the post. I made a poor choice of words.
It was more of an opinion about the quality of work done in an engineering major over fluffy humanities, but it's true the number itself actually does matter the most.

However, it cannot be ignored that admissions people do have the opportunity to actually view your transcripts.
But the difference between OPs 170 and the idea that if he retakes and gets 172 will make some huge difference is just unrealistic. As I stated any difference of less than 3 points is negligible.

Not sure where the 168 or 169 numbers came from. IIRC OP said he had a 170.
Getting a 172 isn't going to do as much. Getting a 174 is something all together different.

As the above poster stated you changed your LSAT score by 4 points--4 points is different from 2.

But I also disagree that if you had a really bad first year but did really well the rest of your semesters that doesn't make a difference. There are addendums all over the country describing upward trends.
The problem with admissions is that you never know exactly why you were rejected. Having grades during your last 2 years and poor grades the first two could be a boost for one person and may not make a difference for another. That's another reason why sometimes you major could make a big difference. Everything is not in a vacuum. There are compelling reasons for people having lower GPAs than normal and being uncharacteristically admitted to a place where your GPA is below 25th%.

A 170 at most schools is going to get OPs app a second look. The second look may be to determine why OPs GPA is so low and the extra scrutiny could be in OPs favor if it shows that he finished strong with engineering classes but because he struggled in a few humanities courses his GPA never quite recovered.

People can be free to disagree freely--I fully expect it. But honestly any reasoning for the disagreement is going to be mostly anecdotal in nature because of all the variables involved in the admissions process.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby JDizzle2015 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:23 am

crumpetsandtea wrote:The other posters are right, bumping your score to a 173 would make you a lock at NU and GULC, and probably in at UVa off the WL or via ED.

^ Agree.

2012JayDee wrote:Getting a 172 isn't going to do as much.

A 170 at most schools is going to get OPs app a second look. The second look may be to determine why OPs GPA is so low and the extra scrutiny could be in OPs favor if it shows that he finished strong with engineering classes but because he struggled in a few humanities courses his GPA never quite recovered.

^ Disagree. LS adcom is in the game of maintaining/improving their medians and, in turn, their US News rankings. I've heard this directly from the mouths of members of adcom. However hard someone's schedule is will probably be a tie-breaker, along with consideration for other softs, if numbers--or the effect on a LS' medians--are exactly the same. (The reasoning behind this is because adcoms, imo correctly, believe that most applicants will use the US News ranking to some extent when making their decision between different law schools.)

A 172 or a 171 will likely cause a change in outcome for an applicant because so many of the T14 schools (outside of the T6) have a median LSAT score of 170. Look at LSN (lawschoolnumbers.com).... you'll see a distinct horizontal line at most of the T14s because they want to maintain their median LSAT. What you, 2012JayDee, say might make more sense instinctively, but it's just not the way law school admissions works.

OP, I would say your best shot at any of those schools would be to ED UVA and even then, the chances aren't great. Certainly possible but retaking for a point or two will help a lot.
Last edited by JDizzle2015 on Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thelawyler
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Re: 2.75 170

Postby thelawyler » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:12 am

You gotta be fucking kidding me.

A 170 vs a 172 may actually yield a scholarship difference of 30-40k additional dollars. Yes. It's not a joke. It's reality. My 4 point jump from 169 to 173 resulted in a rejection to a 100k+ scholarship at Georgetown. I'm sure you can find examples of something inbetween for a two point jump.

It's absolutely nonsense to say it doesn't matter. It does. And it can mean the difference of tens of thousands of dollars. Another five hour exam for 20k extra bucks? I say that's a good deal.




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